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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Oh yeah, infestor first also means you don't need banelings, so you can spend the extra (do you have extra?) gas on upgrading your lings and teching further. Due to how much gas mutalisks and banelings use up, it can be tricky to transition out of ling/bling/muta without dying due to not having enough banelings or mutas.

  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    Yeah, one of the biggest strengths of ling/infestor is that it transitions very well into a lategame composition of infestor/broodlord or ling/infestor/ultralisk. Ling/bling/muta players often have trouble getting to that point because all the gas they put into tech weakens their army.

  • TannerMSTannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!" Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    If I go mutalingbling, I have an answer for anything that can happen and there's never a situation where I should deviate. I don't feel like that's true with infestor first

    Meeks has a good point though, I HATE getting my infestor count/energy up for the broodlord switch. Maybe to the point where I'd go Infestors anytime I thought lategame was a possibility (BF or tank openings). Most of my games are my opponent losing everything he attacks with and then me busting his front with speed banes

    TannerMS on
  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    What situation would an infestor first style need to deviate to respond to?

  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    I always feel like T can get enough marines to just stand their ground, stim, and kill a nearly arbitrarily large number of banes before they get to melee.

    It's really annoying when you rush forty banes at a marine blob and only eight of them land. Granted, that eight is often enough, but it feels wasteful as hell.

    Plus, once a baneling hits, it's gone. It's possible (if often difficult!) to conserve and reuse infestors.

  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    kedinik wrote:
    5 second excerpt from a destiny lesson.

    "Fungal everything. Fungal everything, fungal fungal fungal fungal fungal fungal fungal. FUNGAL! FUNGAL!"

    I've been doing a lot better ever since I dropped infestors from my ZvT. Is this a major mistake? With regular mutaling, I don't feel like I need them. Regular running in with speedlings and banelings usually takes care of everything. I mean, I'm pretty good with muta harass. And when it comes time to attack, his marines spend their time running from the banelings who I have chasing them. The lings just run by and a-move and the mutas magic box over thors and get in all their acceptable dps. I add infestors to that mix, they usually just die to siege tanks. Maybe they get a fungal off before that. That's 36 damage. Or I could get 6 banelings for that cost. 6 banelings? 1 infestor... In a big fight, I just want the banelings. And there's no good amount of "positioning" I can do. No good Terran will not have air support for vision, and sieged tanks in the back covering their assault. Infestors in my ZvTs live to get a single fungal off, then die to tank fire.

    On the one hand it's absolutely not a mistake and DongRaeGu pretty much doesn't build anything but muta/bane against standard terran play.

    But fwiw, I think it's a very fragile style that almost completely relies on terran mistakes to deal damage.

    The terran counter to muta/ling/bane is marine/tank/micro. Then the zerg answer is "well shit I hope I have a strong enough economy to continue throwing away huge armies."

    Personally, cannot justify banes as anything besides "oh shit early timing push" units. Infestors fill the same role and half a dozen other great roles, and do it from long range without killing themselves.

    kedinik on
  • TannerMSTannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!" Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    mEEksa wrote:
    What situation would an infestor first style need to deviate to respond to?

    I guess it depends on what you use to back up your infestors, but aggressively expanding Ts, Tank heavy mech, and mass drops all make me wish I'd played Mutaling.

    I feel like banes allow me to directly convert economic advantage to a victory. If I get x amount ahead and can make 100 banelings, the terran player is dead.

    TannerMS on
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    Mass banshee punishes infestor openings pretty well.

    Hard to even survive if they reveal a bunch of cloaked well spread banshees at a good timing.

  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    TannerMS wrote:
    mEEksa wrote:
    What situation would an infestor first style need to deviate to respond to?

    I guess it depends on what you use to back up your infestors, but aggressively expanding Ts, Tank heavy mech, and mass drops all make me wish I'd played Mutaling.

    I feel like banes allow me to directly convert economic advantage to a victory. If I get x amount ahead and can make 100 banelings, the terran player is dead.

    Infestor first can respond to all those situations though. Mass drops requires good map awareness, reaction time, and a healthy dose of spine crawlers at every expansion. Aggressively expanding Ts actually sounds ike a great situation for an infestor style. It means they can continue to expand and drone and get closer to the endgame goal of infestor/broodlord. I'm not too familiar with tank heavy mech, but I think the answer is adding in roaches to the composition and throwing NP on everything.

  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    So we have a lot of Australian sc2 players; I just saw something that reminded me of you all.
    anzacs.png

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Interesting MLG Korean attendants.

    Makes me feel they're just sending everyone to show that they can dominate us with literarily everybody.
    which, is ok as long as they send tossgirl
    or eve
    or both

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • SeguerSeguer of the Void Sydney, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    Mig did you see the SNSD sup son picture I linked, just for you?

  • TannerMSTannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!" Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    mEEksa wrote:

    Infestor first can respond to all those situations though. Mass drops requires good map awareness, reaction time, and a healthy dose of spine crawlers at every expansion. Aggressively expanding Ts actually sounds ike a great situation for an infestor style. It means they can continue to expand and drone and get closer to the endgame goal of infestor/broodlord. I'm not too familiar with tank heavy mech, but I think the answer is adding in roaches to the composition and throwing NP on everything.

    In the MMA Nestea game earlier this week, MMA has half his drops standing still, not firing, and Nestea still can't handle it. Nestea just needs better map awareness? If a Terran is on equal base to a Broodlord Infestor Zerg and catches the hive tech, he can have enough Ghosts/Vikings to roll you. Pressuring planetaries with Infestor tech is not an option. Tanks are pretty good against roaches, I don't even

    Infestors are a good option, but they I think we'll eventually decide that they don't work against everything or even most things

    TannerMS on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    TannerMS wrote:
    Infestors are a good option, but they don't work against everything or even most things

    Unlike in ZvP, of course.

  • TannerMSTannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!" Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote:
    TannerMS wrote:
    Infestors are a good option, but they don't work against everything or even most things

    Unlike in ZvP, of course.

    Someone needs to notify IdrA, guy's a goose

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    kedinik wrote:
    So we have a lot of Australian sc2 players; I just saw something that reminded me of you all.
    anzacs.png

    ANZAC cookies are unbelievably delicious.

  • SaarutoSaaruto Registered User regular
    Australians of PA, why should I study abroad down under and where exactly should I go?

    If you can chill, chill.
    Steam ID
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    I think infestors are useful against absolutely everything.

    Maybe not the best option but pretty much never a bad one.

  • TannerMSTannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!" Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    The emphasized words on that package
    Wholesome...
    Tranditional...
    SPICY SWEET

    I think someone lost his train of thought half way through

    TannerMS on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Saaruto wrote:
    Australians of PA, why should I study abroad down under and where exactly should I go?

    1) Amazing weather all year round. The worst you get in winter is minimum temperatures during the day of 10-12 degrees (Celsius), the only time it goes near zero is in the middle of the night/early morning during the very coldest winters.

    2) Great beaches

    I have no personal experience with the actual studying side of things as I opted out of university. I think, if you want to come to Australia, Brisbane or Sydney is probably among the two best cities to go to. Seguer can probably give you more info about Sydney. I like where I live in Perth, but its a lot quieter city than Sydney, Melbourne, or Brisbane, and thus not as interesting for a student.

  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    TannerMS wrote:
    mEEksa wrote:

    Infestor first can respond to all those situations though. Mass drops requires good map awareness, reaction time, and a healthy dose of spine crawlers at every expansion. Aggressively expanding Ts actually sounds ike a great situation for an infestor style. It means they can continue to expand and drone and get closer to the endgame goal of infestor/broodlord. I'm not too familiar with tank heavy mech, but I think the answer is adding in roaches to the composition and throwing NP on everything.

    In the MMA Nestea game earlier this week, MMA has half his drops standing still, not firing, and Nestea still can't handle it. Nestea just needs better map awareness? If a Terran is on equal base to a Broodlord Infestor Zerg and catches the hive tech, he can have enough Ghosts/Vikings to roll you. Pressuring planetaries with Infestor tech is not an option. Tanks are pretty good against roaches, I don't even

    Infestors are a good option, but they I think we'll eventually decide that they don't work against everything or even most things

    One game where a Zerg can't handle mass drops with infestors does not prove it can't be done, even if it is Nestea. I can point to a lot of games where it does work. The Zerg should be ahead in bases even if the Terran is aggressively expanding, and if they get too silly with it it is possible to punish with a ling/infestor army. Broodlord Infestor vs Ghost/Viking just comes down to positioning and army control, I wouldn't give the advantage to either race. I'm pretty sure I've seen ling/roach/infestor vs mech play, but like I said, I'm not sure of the best response to that.

    On the contrary, I think we'll eventually decide that ling/bling/muta just doesn't work against a properly controlled Terran army and go with infestor play.

  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    TannerMS wrote:
    The emphasized words on that package
    Wholesome...
    Tranditional...
    SPICY SWEET

    I think someone lost his train of thought half way through

    I suspect they were distracted by the word "studded" :P

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    actually i think spicy sweet quite appropriately describes anzac cookies. i can't really explain it better than that.

  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    On another note, I'll be getting back to my gaming computer in a few weeks and I'll be playing SC2 a lot to make up for lost time. I'm considering switching to Zerg, at least for awhiile to give it a try. My reasoning is that I find ZvZ way more enjoyable to play than TvT, so I won't be scared to ladder.

  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    Regarding infestors and drop harass.

    Reminded of a conversation Destiny had with Day9 on stream while laddering.

    "Yeah people say you can't cover all your bases with infestors, so I make a few small ling/infestor squads for defending harass."
    "One control group of ground units can't cover 3 bases, so you... make 3 control groups?!? Brilliant, ahahah!"
    "Yeah pretty much."

    Though to be fair there are a few specific maps where mutalisks feel mandatory by way of all the ledges and high/low ground locations abusable by medivacs and blink stalkers.

  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited August 2011
    Code A games all been trash so far tonight.

    815165 on
  • TorgaironTorgairon Registered User regular
    sounds good, that justified my laddering during them and finally hitting plat! I would post a screenshot if I wasn't computer illiterate, so I'll just have to settle for your non-ss fueled adoration as opposed to otherwise.

    that said, now that I'm plat I'm scared to ladder. help me

  • TannerMSTannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!" Registered User regular
    815165 wrote:
    Code A games all been trash so far tonight.

    Both ZvZs had terrible terrible baneling micro, but I thought that the first game of Maka Leenock was hilarious :)

  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    TannerMS wrote:
    815165 wrote:
    Code A games all been trash so far tonight.

    Both ZvZs had terrible terrible baneling micro, but I thought that the first game of Maka Leenock was hilarious :)

    That game made my brain sad. :(

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited August 2011
    I wish Korea wasn't so...format boring. Single elimination with the short pool play at the beginning of Code S doesn't seem like the most rigorously skill testing method. They should stray away from the 1 month format and let it go longer. A longer pool period where people play best of 3s and then move on to top 8 or 16 single elimination playoffs or something.

    I just really hate anything that is best of 1.

    Code A also seems very harsh. Oh, you went through that gauntlet to get here? You lost your first game, gtfo. They could at least make it double elimination or something. Or have some pools.

    ChaosHat on
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    gotta post this game, my macro died at the end (I never know what to do when I'm maxed) but I did the opening properly for once, and was just completely not aggressive because honestly I've never won being aggressive with it. when I started to try and do something (saw HT tech and they scare me) ... well, you'll see

    very fast upgrade tvp build.

    ... err, does gamereplays.org not work anymore?

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    I don't enjoy PvP at all. I don't dislike TvT so much as I'm just completely lost as to what I'm supposed to actually be doing. Usually I win or lose to a cloaked banshee, blue flame hellion drop, or tank mismicro. I don't actually know what I'm supposed to be doing, when I'm supposed tobe expanding, what units I'm supposed to be making, what I'm meant to do with those units, when to expand AGAIN, how to harass while still building up a central army, all of that crap.

  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    yeah tvt is crazy

    on the one hand you generally want to open with harass

    but every inch of your economy that isn't about the harass has to be into scouting and defending because well, no joke a 3rax stim attack would kill a lot of pros (except they'd obviously scout it)

    I do the gas first fast banshee, then make a raven, then a viking. 2-3 marines (sometimes 1 if I see they went gas first), 1 helion from the fac before it makes the tech lab.

    basically if you scout well you -shouldn't- die to cheese, you'll handle cloaked banshees with a laugh. bfh drops are never anything but very dangerous but do what you can to watch. when the banshee gets to his base, a naked starport and tech lab'd fac often mean a bfh drop (though it can also mean tank viking, wait to see what kills your banshee).

    it can be very annoying, but it's also super rewarding.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Variable wrote:
    gotta post this game, my macro died at the end (I never know what to do when I'm maxed) but I did the opening properly for once, and was just completely not aggressive because honestly I've never won being aggressive with it. when I started to try and do something (saw HT tech and they scare me) ... well, you'll see

    very fast upgrade tvp build.

    ... err, does gamereplays.org not work anymore?

    it intermittently goes down every so often for a couple hours.

    as to your query about being maxed, while i bow to your way superior terran ability, what I like to do is (assuming going bio) throw down at least 6 extra raxes with tech labs. Its the same thing as I do as Protoss, the second I'm maxed and can afford to, I throw down 6-10 additional gateways.

  • TorgaironTorgairon Registered User regular
    even though I missed the first series, I've watched two code a games so far and haven't had my immersion broken by horrid jokes or painfully obvious observations. oh, where's wolf tonight

    seriously though, moletrap is so bearable without wolf

  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    kedinik wrote:
    Infestors fill the same role and half a dozen other great roles, and do it from long range without killing themselves.

    See... that's the part I have had trouble with. I should post some replays of me getting Infestors instead of banes. But I outlined why I don't like them. They do get themselves killed. Fungal range isn't nearly large enough. Infestor just gets really close, and dies to tanks. The end. I just spent 100m-150g on a baneling. Maybe I just need to see some replays.

  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote:
    Variable wrote:
    gotta post this game, my macro died at the end (I never know what to do when I'm maxed) but I did the opening properly for once, and was just completely not aggressive because honestly I've never won being aggressive with it. when I started to try and do something (saw HT tech and they scare me) ... well, you'll see

    very fast upgrade tvp build.

    ... err, does gamereplays.org not work anymore?

    it intermittently goes down every so often for a couple hours.

    as to your query about being maxed, while i bow to your way superior terran ability, what I like to do is (assuming going bio) throw down at least 6 extra raxes with tech labs. Its the same thing as I do as Protoss, the second I'm maxed and can afford to, I throw down 6-10 additional gateways.

    my friend, you bow to no terran

    I have done the rax thing, but not often enough. thanks.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    TannerMS wrote:
    mEEksa wrote:
    What situation would an infestor first style need to deviate to respond to?

    I guess it depends on what you use to back up your infestors, but aggressively expanding Ts, Tank heavy mech, and mass drops all make me wish I'd played Mutaling.

    I feel like banes allow me to directly convert economic advantage to a victory. If I get x amount ahead and can make 100 banelings, the terran player is dead.

    This is a major part of it. Mutaling is a harass-mandatory build. It's all about map control, which makes it all about, subsequently, economy. Mutalisks allow for banelings, which allow for mutalisks.. I'm not a pro, but the way I see it, this will always be a viable build. It's about more than just "Does an equal number of mutaling directly counter, on an open field, in close quarters combat, a Marine/tank/hellion/thor/raven/medivac/marauder/banshee army?

  • stimtokolosstimtokolos Registered User regular
    Saaruto wrote:
    Australians of PA, why should I study abroad down under and where exactly should I go?

    Dhal lives in Perth so his talk of the 10-12 minimum isn't quite true at the moment for everywhere.
    Melbourne has had a pretty cold Winter by our standards and it is pissing me off. It will be summer soon though and I'm basically the Moses of clouds.

    I think the places most people would like to live would be Melbourne / Sydney.

    I'm partial to Melbourne because I live here, and Sydney is ridiculous. The way I've always thought of it, going up the East coast, you go from places which are better to live, and slowly transition into more holiday like destinations.

    Then you get to Far North Queensland where your nuts are stuck to everything.

  • stimtokolosstimtokolos Registered User regular
    You poor kids, I just inject larva and hope no one storms or hellions them while I'm not looking.

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