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Anonymous Tip Lines, Government Intrusion, & Loss of Freedoms
EWom
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Registered User regular
Here's a link to an article about this: .| LINK |.
Essentially what happened is there is an anonymous tip line that allows people to call in crimes, and they can't be faced in court. Which resulted in a small time rabbit rancher losing everything.
First off, this is a violation of the Constitution.
The Sixth Amendment
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Secondly, according to the article, none of the rabbits were sick or injured. The conditions they were kept in, were not inhumane until after the police showed up, turned off the cooling and watering system, kept the barn door open, causing the barn to heat up, mishandled and mistreated all the rabbits while removing them, and didn't even a veterinary, or animal expert on hand to determine whether or not the animals were in any danger.
The rancher was charged with animal cruelty for rabbits slaughtered for meat found in her freezer. Which begs the question, how can they prove that these animals were killed in a cruel manner? Obviously if it's dead it's animal cruelty, oh except if they have a Jimmy Dean, or Tyson or other huge corporate logo on the side of the barn, then it's just fine. Because clearly it's impossible for a small time rancher to be able to raise and slaughter animals in humane conditions; despite the fact that animals in care of small ranchers are almost always treated better than animals on corporate "ranches".
Cases like these have been popping up more and more, from animal rights activists going after small time ranchers like the one above, to giant agricultural corporations like Monsanto doing everything they can to make growing food illegal, unless you're buying from them. From outlawing the reuse of seeds, to patenting seeds, which once cross pollinate with other rangers crops ( impossible to stop, unless you find a way to stop wind, and kill off all insects and birds, and any animal that will travel between ranches like deer, coyote, fox, skunk, etc.) and sueing ranchers and farmers for copyright infringement. I have even read cases where Monsanto and other large corporations have tried to outlaw backyard & windowbox gardens, because they are a threat to their genetically engineered products.
While I'm sure there are some here that live in big cities and don't know anything about ranching and farming; I see this as an attack on American liberty and freedom. To be told by corporations that you can't grow tomatoes because it violates their copyrights, and that you can raise rabbits for fur and meat, or chickens for eggs and meat, or any other animal, because it's animal cruelty; while in the meantime huge corporations have gigantic ranches with deplorable conditions and practices going on is insane and should be fought against by everyone regardless of if they have any desire to grow food or meat for themselves.
If this type of corruption in the government and law enforcement is allowed to continue, millions of Americans will be affected. From losing their lively hood, to something as simple as farmers markets will disappear, or they will sell only G&E vegetables.
This issue probably hits closer to home with me, than for many members here as I live in Montana, I know and am related to various types of ranchers. From a family that breeds prized Arabian horses, to a sustenance cattle rancher, a small time commercial hog rancher, free chicken eggs, sheep, hay, grain, large scale beef, and many more. I myself hope to one day own a small ranch, to raise horses on, and I see family and friends affected by this all the time.
I don't really know what I'm looking for on this issue, just other members thoughts & opinions, and if they have any experience with ranching/farming/gardening etc.
Essentially what happened is there is an anonymous tip line that allows people to call in crimes, and they can't be faced in court. Which resulted in a small time rabbit rancher losing everything.
First off, this is a violation of the Constitution.
The Sixth Amendment
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Secondly, according to the article, none of the rabbits were sick or injured. The conditions they were kept in, were not inhumane until after the police showed up, turned off the cooling and watering system, kept the barn door open, causing the barn to heat up, mishandled and mistreated all the rabbits while removing them, and didn't even a veterinary, or animal expert on hand to determine whether or not the animals were in any danger.
The rancher was charged with animal cruelty for rabbits slaughtered for meat found in her freezer. Which begs the question, how can they prove that these animals were killed in a cruel manner? Obviously if it's dead it's animal cruelty, oh except if they have a Jimmy Dean, or Tyson or other huge corporate logo on the side of the barn, then it's just fine. Because clearly it's impossible for a small time rancher to be able to raise and slaughter animals in humane conditions; despite the fact that animals in care of small ranchers are almost always treated better than animals on corporate "ranches".
Cases like these have been popping up more and more, from animal rights activists going after small time ranchers like the one above, to giant agricultural corporations like Monsanto doing everything they can to make growing food illegal, unless you're buying from them. From outlawing the reuse of seeds, to patenting seeds, which once cross pollinate with other rangers crops ( impossible to stop, unless you find a way to stop wind, and kill off all insects and birds, and any animal that will travel between ranches like deer, coyote, fox, skunk, etc.) and sueing ranchers and farmers for copyright infringement. I have even read cases where Monsanto and other large corporations have tried to outlaw backyard & windowbox gardens, because they are a threat to their genetically engineered products.
While I'm sure there are some here that live in big cities and don't know anything about ranching and farming; I see this as an attack on American liberty and freedom. To be told by corporations that you can't grow tomatoes because it violates their copyrights, and that you can raise rabbits for fur and meat, or chickens for eggs and meat, or any other animal, because it's animal cruelty; while in the meantime huge corporations have gigantic ranches with deplorable conditions and practices going on is insane and should be fought against by everyone regardless of if they have any desire to grow food or meat for themselves.
If this type of corruption in the government and law enforcement is allowed to continue, millions of Americans will be affected. From losing their lively hood, to something as simple as farmers markets will disappear, or they will sell only G&E vegetables.
This issue probably hits closer to home with me, than for many members here as I live in Montana, I know and am related to various types of ranchers. From a family that breeds prized Arabian horses, to a sustenance cattle rancher, a small time commercial hog rancher, free chicken eggs, sheep, hay, grain, large scale beef, and many more. I myself hope to one day own a small ranch, to raise horses on, and I see family and friends affected by this all the time.
I don't really know what I'm looking for on this issue, just other members thoughts & opinions, and if they have any experience with ranching/farming/gardening etc.
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
EWom on
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Posts
Meaning, they still gather evidence that you are committing a crime and it's not a Sixth Amendment violation.
The US is hardly the Land of the Free, and its getting less free every day. Given the increasingly polarized political situation and dire economic times, I'm genuinely worried about what the US is going to look like 10 years from now. Its been a steady downhill since 9/11 already.
The real issue is the validity of the first search. I would be curious what they could see that would allow a search warrant. I'm pretty certain they aren't allowed to just enter private structures (the barn) without one.
It'd be nice to see an article that wasn't so biased though.
They're not, really. The example above certainly was though, where cops raided a guy for nothing.
In general, anonymous tip lines are good "snitch on your neighbour" tools. Which I dislike out of principal, but don't erode freedoms. When this is combined with very large and increasing police powers, it becomes more of a problem.
When implemented well (ie, with proper oversight of the program, and of police in general) it can lead to useful information getting to people who will use it, like say a meth-lab next door. When implemented poorly you get stuff like "these brown guys next door keep on saying allah, I think they're terrorists" - and given the huge powers of police, this can lead to actual bad things for the people accused regardless of whether or not they've done anything bad. Being put on a terrorist watch list, or a no-fly list for example.
We already live in a society with massive surveillance, and huge police powers. Giving yet more information to police is not in my mind a good thing.
But yeah, tiplines aren't the problem. It's not like people wouldn't call in tips without them anyway.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Tip lines are great for getting information about crimes.
I really can't see how you could claim it's probable cause with a straight face. I mean, it's cause enough to go knock on a door....which requires a level of suspicion around "It's a day of the week with a y in it!"
Edit: Not you you, just any you who would happen to claim it.
I take everything from Andrew Breibart's Big Government as truth.
Watching the video, it seemed like a fairly small building for almost 200 animals and one acre doesn't offer much space from other properties despite the zoning.
Tough to say what the situation is. Could be hoarding behavior, could be neighbors tired of the smell, could be a little of both.
Having raised livestock, I find it hard to believe that she was naming animals and using them for food.
The vets involved seem to think there were problems.
The carcass thing may have been forensics. If you find sores and bite marks all over the dead rabbits, there might be a problem.
I know in Illinios outbuildings can be searched without a warrant.
"Shed."
"Home."
It was a barn, try again, shit heads.
And according to the Animal Shelter site, the rabbits go up for adoption tomorrow. So it looks like this woman lost.
Like, it gets hotter than that in every state in the south by April. We still have rabbits.
Sure, someone with a grudge could call in a tip and say you were building a nuke in your basement. But without some more evidence, a judge would be very unlikely to issue even a search warrant based on one anonymous tip.
Rigorous Scholarship
Right. And cops, when they're acting competently, are pretty good at ignoring bullshit tips.
I'm pretty outraged by what appears to be search and seizure without a trial, warrant, or even probable cause.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
84 degrees is the upper end; at 85 degrees and higher, a rabbit will have problems regulating its internal body temperature. If it can seek shade or cool earth, then it's not a big deal, but in a cage it can be a problem. We used to lose rabbits to heat stroke in the summer where I grew up, but we had daytime temperatures over 100F in July.
Still, that's the upper boundary, not inherently abusive conditions, and my understanding from the OP is it only became 84 degrees after the cops opened the barn doors and turned off the swamp cooler.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well yeah, but that's not an argument against anonymous tip lines.
Right. I'm not arguing against anonymous tip lines. I think the anonymous tip line is incidental to the conduct of the police.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Then we're in agreement.
Handjobs for everyone!
But but but I wanna argue with somebody...
Disagree with somebody
with somebody who hates me
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Just shut up and unzip your fly.
I'd also note that the fecundity of those bastards is so high that they'd still be around with a 100% rate of attrition, and that doesn't even make sense.