The iPad as textbook replacement argument seems to center around the idea that they would be replacing a textbook in an environment where the textbook purchasing is left up to the discretion of the student. I am more concerned about the iPad textbooks at the lower level educational institutes.
If it proves cost-effective enough, why not move the entire educational system to iTunes?
Seems to be the general idea behind universities picking Google Apps over Office 365.
I just don't think it's there yet. But it's so sexy, the higher-ups can hardly resist.
Talking with an Apple rep on this subject, he explained what would be awesome about deploying Apple textbooks - you hand out iPads and your class downloads the books right there in class. When asked what the average size of textbook was it (naturally) varied quite a bit. The smallest seem to come in at just under 1g. Most seemed to be between 1 and 2, according to this guy. Which is an infrastructural nightmare. Even with a gigantic pipe 25-30 kids downloading that all at once would destroy the network. And that's just one class.
Okay, so we pre-load everything. Which is a management-manpower nightmare. But that only really hurts IT and no one cares.
I'm still not sure it is cost-effective. My understanding is the textbooks have to be renewed yearly. And buying a couple thousand iPads will not replace a single computer in the school. They will still need labs and classroom machines. And what is the life-span of an iPad? What is the life-span of an iPad in the hands of a student?
I will also say that Google Apps seemed to be designed with the idea of managing large numbers from the start. Apple's management solution seems to have been a bit of an after-thought. I get what you are saying with the Google Apps comparison but GA is free (kinda) and runs on pretty much anything. The change is slightly less dramatic for the end users.
Steam preloads multi gigabyte games to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of preorders, through an automated system.
Apple pushes multi hundred meg software updates to their iOS devices, ALL of them, when a new update comes out.
What you are describing is only a networking disaster if they don't let you have access to the textbook before day 1 of the class.
In a future where textbooks can be gotten for the iPad, I see registering for a class netting you an email that lets you purchase / download the textbook from a variety of different sources (kindle, iBooks, PDF, etc), on your time, before the first day of class.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
syndalis i am that person
i have an iphone i havent turned on in 4 months because i never use it
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
i have an iphone i havent turned on in 4 months because i never use it
Is it because you have another smartphone that you use as your main? Like, if I had an iPhone and a SGS I would choose one of them and stick with it, sure.
The iPad is a different animal. Like, right now I'm laying in bed trying to wake up and start my day, and I am making poast comfortably while on my back, with the iPad resting on my chest.
I am also reading my morning news (flipboard is beyond amazing), and plan on watching a little HBO.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
The iPad is a different animal. Like, right now I'm laying in bed trying to wake up and start my day, and I am making poast comfortably while on my back, with the iPad resting on my chest.
I'm doing this with my laptop (tummy top). I've also played hours of Baldur's Gate in this position (and GK SOTF). I tend to make sure to frequently stretch my thoracic spine because I could see that being a problem over time.
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
The iPad as textbook replacement argument seems to center around the idea that they would be replacing a textbook in an environment where the textbook purchasing is left up to the discretion of the student. I am more concerned about the iPad textbooks at the lower level educational institutes.
If it proves cost-effective enough, why not move the entire educational system to iTunes?
Seems to be the general idea behind universities picking Google Apps over Office 365.
I just don't think it's there yet. But it's so sexy, the higher-ups can hardly resist.
Talking with an Apple rep on this subject, he explained what would be awesome about deploying Apple textbooks - you hand out iPads and your class downloads the books right there in class. When asked what the average size of textbook was it (naturally) varied quite a bit. The smallest seem to come in at just under 1g. Most seemed to be between 1 and 2, according to this guy. Which is an infrastructural nightmare. Even with a gigantic pipe 25-30 kids downloading that all at once would destroy the network. And that's just one class.
Okay, so we pre-load everything. Which is a management-manpower nightmare. But that only really hurts IT and no one cares.
I'm still not sure it is cost-effective. My understanding is the textbooks have to be renewed yearly. And buying a couple thousand iPads will not replace a single computer in the school. They will still need labs and classroom machines. And what is the life-span of an iPad? What is the life-span of an iPad in the hands of a student?
I will also say that Google Apps seemed to be designed with the idea of managing large numbers from the start. Apple's management solution seems to have been a bit of an after-thought. I get what you are saying with the Google Apps comparison but GA is free (kinda) and runs on pretty much anything. The change is slightly less dramatic for the end users.
Steam preloads multi gigabyte games to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of preorders, through an automated system.
Apple pushes multi hundred meg software updates to their iOS devices, ALL of them, when a new update comes out.
What you are describing is only a networking disaster if they don't let you have access to the textbook before day 1 of the class.
In a future where textbooks can be gotten for the iPad, I see registering for a class netting you an email that lets you purchase / download the textbook from a variety of different sources (kindle, iBooks, PDF, etc), on your time, before the first day of class.
I'm not saying Apple can't handle pushing out the textbooks. I'm saying K-12 schools can't handle receiving them. I think the registration scenario could work but that would still require the students having the devices and having an internet connection at home. Or require the schools to do it. Which would certainly require more man-power. Which, again, eliminates the idea of cost-effective.
Also, the idea that they could have whatever device they want isn't going to fly. It's all or nothing. We don't currently put the burden of textbook purchasing on the individual student so we can't change that. Not in public education, anyway.
When you say "In a future" I don't disagree...which is why I say I don't think it is there yet. But desire for the devices to be in the schools is there.
"lenny bruce is not afraid..."
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Public education is not going to hand out iPads, kindles or whatever else to students on a national level.
This will start in charter / private schools, and I suspect it already has.
Oh, and as for K-12 not being able to handle the infrastructure... All it would take is one mac mini running server on their network capable of pushing content to approved devices, and then all textbooks would roll out on the local network. Canvassing an entire campus with good dual band N wifi will be much much cheaper than buying 1000 iPads for the kids, so I imagine it would be a line item in the same budget.
Still, it's not happening any time soon.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Public education is not going to hand out iPads, kindles or whatever else to students on a national level.
This will start in charter / private schools, and I suspect it already has.
Oh, and as for K-12 not being able to handle the infrastructure... All it would take is one mac mini running server on their network capable of pushing content to approved devices, and then all textbooks would roll out on the local network. Canvassing an entire campus with good dual band N wifi will be much much cheaper than buying 1000 iPads for the kids, so I imagine it would be a line item in the same budget.
Still, it's not happening any time soon.
There is at least one public school with an iPad 1:1 initiative already. They needed to upgrade the infrastructure in order to handle it because even the sort of enterprise-level managed wireless you are talking about is not a given in most districts.
I truly hope you are correct about it not happening (widely) any time soon.
I should also make it clear that I am not against iPads in schools in general. I have seen iPads used in amazing ways in education. There are Apps that allow children to communicate who would otherwise not be able to. For something like 600 or 700 dollars (depending on the needs of the user and which App they would use) a low or middle income family can afford to purchase a device that will allow them to communicate with their child. You could say that is priceless...but it's not. The previous market leader in that field charged something like $5,000 a pop for a much less intuitive device.
But I do feel like this textbook thing is finding a problem for a solution. Right now, anyway.
But I do feel like this textbook thing is finding a problem for a solution. Right now, anyway.
It is a solution to a problem, but the problem lies more with the ways schools are administered and funded. Educators have realized that there are huge pools of money for IT investment in schools - my state has a surcharge on all cell and landline bills that goes directly to IT costs in K-12 schools - but no equivalent funds for buying new textbooks. Turning to the iPad allows them to have the cash from those pools to invest in new textbooks. You can thank legislator indifference and Big IT lobbying for that situation.
You'd be surprised by how many of the worst idiocies in governmental planning have to do with the restrictions placed on budgeting and purchasing by the legislatures.
Lots of people (not just here) talk about how printing/shipping/storing hardcopies is a small portion of the cost of a book. Has there been any breakdowns on this? I have a hard time believing that.
Speaking of agency pricing and Steam. That's how Steam works, right? The game companies set the price and Valve gets some sort of cut.
Steam, itunes, App Store, Google Play... they all work under the "agency" model, though not by that name.
Publishers establish a price, give 30% to the store, take the rest as profit.
These also happen to be the most successful online software/media stores.
The problem isn't the model - hell, Amazon uses the agency model with the authors they work with directly.
The problem is that Apple and five major publishers colluded to create a system that would benefit them at the expense of their competitors and the consumers.
Lots of people (not just here) talk about how printing/shipping/storing hardcopies is a small portion of the cost of a book. Has there been any breakdowns on this? I have a hard time believing that.
Define "book". Textbooks are, admittedly, heaver and larger than standard hardcover books, but not that much. I have no idea what it actually costs to print, ship, or store a book, but consider the examples of (randomly selected hardcover novel) Embassytown by China Mieville and (randomly selected hardcover textbook) Introduction to Electrodynamics by Griffiths.
Embassytown weighs 1.4lbs, is 368 pages, and costs $15 (or, being generous and taking the typical brick and mortar store price, $27). Introduction to Electrodynamics weighs 2.2lbs, is 576 pages, and costs $170.
While the printing, shipping, and storage costs for books may or may not be a significant portion of the price for a hardcover novel, it seems unlikely that it factors strongly into the price of a textbook, given that textbooks cost 10x or more what a novel does but without being 10x or more the size. Griffith's is actually a pretty cheap textbook, and hasn't been 'updated' since 1999. I think they wanted $300 for my wife's calculus textbook a year or two ago (which was of the "print a new one every year and change the page numbers around" variety).
PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Lots of people (not just here) talk about how printing/shipping/storing hardcopies is a small portion of the cost of a book. Has there been any breakdowns on this? I have a hard time believing that.
Define "book". Textbooks are, admittedly, heaver and larger than standard hardcover books, but not that much. I have no idea what it actually costs to print, ship, or store a book, but consider the examples of (randomly selected hardcover novel) Embassytown by China Mieville and (randomly selected hardcover textbook) Introduction to Electrodynamics by Griffiths.
Embassytown weighs 1.4lbs, is 368 pages, and costs $15 (or, being generous and taking the typical brick and mortar store price, $27). Introduction to Electrodynamics weighs 2.2lbs, is 576 pages, and costs $170.
While the printing, shipping, and storage costs for books may or may not be a significant portion of the price for a hardcover novel, it seems unlikely that it factors strongly into the price of a textbook, given that textbooks cost 10x or more what a novel does but without being 10x or more the size. Griffith's is actually a pretty cheap textbook, and hasn't been 'updated' since 1999. I think they wanted $300 for my wife's calculus textbook a year or two ago (which was of the "print a new one every year and change the page numbers around" variety).
trade cloth novels at borders and B&N are printed on cheap ass paper, using an inexpensive binding process and are made hundreds of thousands at a time.
Textbooks are printed on precision matched-size glossy stock, full color CMYK process on all pages, with expensive binding designed to last for a very long time, require much more research and proofreading than a novel (a decimal place being off in a science text is inexcusable), and have much smaller print runs aimed at a smaller audience.
This is why Half Life 2 cost 50 bucks at release and Adobe Photoshop costs like 900 dollars. the cost is in the creation, and the size of the expected market dictates price.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Welp, you guys (most of us here at PA) are super smart and savvy power users regardless of what technology you're using.
But, regarding the "i never met anyone who said meh after using an iPad" question...
Here in Brazil we have a particularly stupid situation. Even if people don't say meh, they buy it, love it, install 15 shitty free apps, play a bit of solitaire or angry birds free and then use that ridiculously expensive piece of hardware to listen to music or check facebook (the ipad is really a lot more expensive here).
I don't know anyone who installed awesome apps with a healthy Appstore account and used the damn thing a lot.
Of course, anecdotal evidence, etc.
Even my wife only has anything decent on her iPad thanks to me.
Ipads can be great, but most people I know never made them great.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Apparently, Verizon and AT&T are hoping to leverage WinPho over Apple because of the ridiculous amount of money Apple requires from the carriers to carry their product.
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
I'll spiflicate all three!
I know you would. I was referring to the Ars commenters. Seriously, Amazon actually treats authors well, unlike publishers.
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
I'll spiflicate all three!
I know you would. I was referring to the Ars commenters. Seriously, Amazon actually treats authors well, unlike publishers.
This is very likely the difference you are looking for, since I've never heard authors complain about their publishers.
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
I'll spiflicate all three!
I know you would. I was referring to the Ars commenters. Seriously, Amazon actually treats authors well, unlike publishers.
This is very likely the difference you are looking for, since I've never heard authors complain about their publishers.
You've never heard authors complain about their publishers? Then you haven't been listening to many.
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
I'll spiflicate all three!
I know you would. I was referring to the Ars commenters. Seriously, Amazon actually treats authors well, unlike publishers.
This is very likely the difference you are looking for, since I've never heard authors complain about their publishers.
You've never heard authors complain about their publishers? Then you haven't been listening to many.
I've talked to/listened to many actually. There's really not much they complain about that I can think of.
Certainly nowhere near as bad as the music industry.
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
I'll spiflicate all three!
I know you would. I was referring to the Ars commenters. Seriously, Amazon actually treats authors well, unlike publishers.
This is very likely the difference you are looking for, since I've never heard authors complain about their publishers.
You've never heard authors complain about their publishers? Then you haven't been listening to many.
I've talked to/listened to many actually. There's really not much they complain about that I can think of.
Certainly nowhere near as bad as the music industry.
From what I've read, publishing can be just as bad, if not worse. Bullshit like basket accounting, not supporting books properly, demanding rights that they will never exploit (and because they have the rights, neither can the author)...
Oh, and royalty rates that are best described as criminal.
Facebook is one of the great apps, if you use Facebook a lot.
Serious question, what makes it better? Got an iPad Thursday because me and my girl needed it to test some iOS code we're writing. First thing I noticed was that typing without Swype is tedious. Second thing was that the Facebook app for iPad is buggy (doesn't update walls, notifications, or messages automatically on my fast home network, sometimes posts don't actually send, repeatedly), and is lacking functionality that the Android client has had for a month or more.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Facebook is one of the great apps, if you use Facebook a lot.
Serious question, what makes it better? Got an iPad Thursday because me and my girl needed it to test some iOS code we're writing. First thing I noticed was that typing without Swype is tedious. Second thing was that the Facebook app for iPad is buggy (doesn't update walls, notifications, or messages automatically on my fast home network, sometimes posts don't actually send, repeatedly), and is lacking functionality that the Android client has had for a month or more.
I personally havent had any problems with the facebook iPad app, and I don't know what the android one is like personally; I simply know that most people who have an iPad swear by the facebook interface on there.
Second, I don't even know how swype would work on an iPad. Most people touch type on these things, and swype seems more of a single-finger experience, which would be shit on a 10" screen. Start treating your ipad like a standard keyboard, and you will catch on quickly.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Have been, keyboard is too small and lacks tactile feedback for me to actually touch type. Swype would work really well when it's vertical actually, about the same dimensions as my 3vo horizontal.
Don't get me wrong, the bigger screen is great for content consumption, Facebook included, but the actual program needs some polish before it's up to par with the Android client.
Posts
Apple pushes multi hundred meg software updates to their iOS devices, ALL of them, when a new update comes out.
What you are describing is only a networking disaster if they don't let you have access to the textbook before day 1 of the class.
In a future where textbooks can be gotten for the iPad, I see registering for a class netting you an email that lets you purchase / download the textbook from a variety of different sources (kindle, iBooks, PDF, etc), on your time, before the first day of class.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
i have an iphone i havent turned on in 4 months because i never use it
The iPad is a different animal. Like, right now I'm laying in bed trying to wake up and start my day, and I am making poast comfortably while on my back, with the iPad resting on my chest.
I am also reading my morning news (flipboard is beyond amazing), and plan on watching a little HBO.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I'm doing this with my laptop (tummy top). I've also played hours of Baldur's Gate in this position (and GK SOTF). I tend to make sure to frequently stretch my thoracic spine because I could see that being a problem over time.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
I'm not saying Apple can't handle pushing out the textbooks. I'm saying K-12 schools can't handle receiving them. I think the registration scenario could work but that would still require the students having the devices and having an internet connection at home. Or require the schools to do it. Which would certainly require more man-power. Which, again, eliminates the idea of cost-effective.
Also, the idea that they could have whatever device they want isn't going to fly. It's all or nothing. We don't currently put the burden of textbook purchasing on the individual student so we can't change that. Not in public education, anyway.
When you say "In a future" I don't disagree...which is why I say I don't think it is there yet. But desire for the devices to be in the schools is there.
This will start in charter / private schools, and I suspect it already has.
Oh, and as for K-12 not being able to handle the infrastructure... All it would take is one mac mini running server on their network capable of pushing content to approved devices, and then all textbooks would roll out on the local network. Canvassing an entire campus with good dual band N wifi will be much much cheaper than buying 1000 iPads for the kids, so I imagine it would be a line item in the same budget.
Still, it's not happening any time soon.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
There is at least one public school with an iPad 1:1 initiative already. They needed to upgrade the infrastructure in order to handle it because even the sort of enterprise-level managed wireless you are talking about is not a given in most districts.
I truly hope you are correct about it not happening (widely) any time soon.
I should also make it clear that I am not against iPads in schools in general. I have seen iPads used in amazing ways in education. There are Apps that allow children to communicate who would otherwise not be able to. For something like 600 or 700 dollars (depending on the needs of the user and which App they would use) a low or middle income family can afford to purchase a device that will allow them to communicate with their child. You could say that is priceless...but it's not. The previous market leader in that field charged something like $5,000 a pop for a much less intuitive device.
But I do feel like this textbook thing is finding a problem for a solution. Right now, anyway.
It is a solution to a problem, but the problem lies more with the ways schools are administered and funded. Educators have realized that there are huge pools of money for IT investment in schools - my state has a surcharge on all cell and landline bills that goes directly to IT costs in K-12 schools - but no equivalent funds for buying new textbooks. Turning to the iPad allows them to have the cash from those pools to invest in new textbooks. You can thank legislator indifference and Big IT lobbying for that situation.
You'd be surprised by how many of the worst idiocies in governmental planning have to do with the restrictions placed on budgeting and purchasing by the legislatures.
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/how-valve-devalued-video-games-and-why-thats-good-news-for-developers-and-p
Steam, itunes, App Store, Google Play... they all work under the "agency" model, though not by that name.
Publishers establish a price, give 30% to the store, take the rest as profit.
These also happen to be the most successful online software/media stores.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
The problem isn't the model - hell, Amazon uses the agency model with the authors they work with directly.
The problem is that Apple and five major publishers colluded to create a system that would benefit them at the expense of their competitors and the consumers.
Define "book". Textbooks are, admittedly, heaver and larger than standard hardcover books, but not that much. I have no idea what it actually costs to print, ship, or store a book, but consider the examples of (randomly selected hardcover novel) Embassytown by China Mieville and (randomly selected hardcover textbook) Introduction to Electrodynamics by Griffiths.
Embassytown weighs 1.4lbs, is 368 pages, and costs $15 (or, being generous and taking the typical brick and mortar store price, $27).
Introduction to Electrodynamics weighs 2.2lbs, is 576 pages, and costs $170.
While the printing, shipping, and storage costs for books may or may not be a significant portion of the price for a hardcover novel, it seems unlikely that it factors strongly into the price of a textbook, given that textbooks cost 10x or more what a novel does but without being 10x or more the size. Griffith's is actually a pretty cheap textbook, and hasn't been 'updated' since 1999. I think they wanted $300 for my wife's calculus textbook a year or two ago (which was of the "print a new one every year and change the page numbers around" variety).
Textbooks are printed on precision matched-size glossy stock, full color CMYK process on all pages, with expensive binding designed to last for a very long time, require much more research and proofreading than a novel (a decimal place being off in a science text is inexcusable), and have much smaller print runs aimed at a smaller audience.
This is why Half Life 2 cost 50 bucks at release and Adobe Photoshop costs like 900 dollars. the cost is in the creation, and the size of the expected market dictates price.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
But, regarding the "i never met anyone who said meh after using an iPad" question...
Here in Brazil we have a particularly stupid situation. Even if people don't say meh, they buy it, love it, install 15 shitty free apps, play a bit of solitaire or angry birds free and then use that ridiculously expensive piece of hardware to listen to music or check facebook (the ipad is really a lot more expensive here).
I don't know anyone who installed awesome apps with a healthy Appstore account and used the damn thing a lot.
Of course, anecdotal evidence, etc.
Even my wife only has anything decent on her iPad thanks to me.
Ipads can be great, but most people I know never made them great.
Much better than the website.
Facebook is one of the great apps, if you use Facebook a lot.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/boy-11-urinates-36k-worth-apple-macbooks-744098
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
The iPeed.
I wonder if the machines are all necessarily bricked, or just stained in a way no one wants to use.
They're biohazards now, so they can't be worked on.
They can't clean them? 0.o
They will also not work on a MacBook that is over saturated with cigarette smoke.
It's on the books, all well known.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
So, basically, if your MBP has a yellow/brown/white/red stain, you're SOL?
if it glows under a blacklight, probably.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9226626/Carriers_desperately_seeking_Windows_Phone
Please stop trying to sell your bullshit that you and the publishers colluding was in our interest. Only the Cult is buying it.
PS: Why is it that the same people who would eviscerate the RIAA and burn down the MPAA without a second thought are more than happy to defend the publishers?
I'll spiflicate all three!
I know you would. I was referring to the Ars commenters. Seriously, Amazon actually treats authors well, unlike publishers.
This is very likely the difference you are looking for, since I've never heard authors complain about their publishers.
You've never heard authors complain about their publishers? Then you haven't been listening to many.
I've talked to/listened to many actually. There's really not much they complain about that I can think of.
Certainly nowhere near as bad as the music industry.
From what I've read, publishing can be just as bad, if not worse. Bullshit like basket accounting, not supporting books properly, demanding rights that they will never exploit (and because they have the rights, neither can the author)...
Oh, and royalty rates that are best described as criminal.
Serious question, what makes it better? Got an iPad Thursday because me and my girl needed it to test some iOS code we're writing. First thing I noticed was that typing without Swype is tedious. Second thing was that the Facebook app for iPad is buggy (doesn't update walls, notifications, or messages automatically on my fast home network, sometimes posts don't actually send, repeatedly), and is lacking functionality that the Android client has had for a month or more.
I personally havent had any problems with the facebook iPad app, and I don't know what the android one is like personally; I simply know that most people who have an iPad swear by the facebook interface on there.
Second, I don't even know how swype would work on an iPad. Most people touch type on these things, and swype seems more of a single-finger experience, which would be shit on a 10" screen. Start treating your ipad like a standard keyboard, and you will catch on quickly.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Don't get me wrong, the bigger screen is great for content consumption, Facebook included, but the actual program needs some polish before it's up to par with the Android client.