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Superman

Ronin356Ronin356 Nowhere MORegistered User regular
edited September 2011 in Graphic Violence
If Superman represents American, and Superman is now more vulnerable than his past self, does that mean that America is more vulnerable as well? That maybe America isn't the superpower it once was? And so our new Superman reflects our modern America?

It was a thought that I had whem I read Action Comics 1.

Nobody sees a flower really; it is so small. We haven't time, and to see takes time - like to have a friend takes time.
Georgia O'Keeffe
Be sure to like my Comic Book "Last Words" on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Last-Words-The-Comic-Book/458405034287767
and Magenta the Witchgirl!: http://www.drunkduck.com/Magenta_the_Witchgirl/



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  • Magna InfernoMagna Inferno Registered User regular
    ....

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  • Ronin356Ronin356 Nowhere MORegistered User regular
    This is about the new Superman in the DC comics reboot BTW.

    Nobody sees a flower really; it is so small. We haven't time, and to see takes time - like to have a friend takes time.
    Georgia O'Keeffe
    Be sure to like my Comic Book "Last Words" on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Last-Words-The-Comic-Book/458405034287767
    and Magenta the Witchgirl!: http://www.drunkduck.com/Magenta_the_Witchgirl/



  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    Ronin356 wrote:
    If Superman represents American, and Superman is now more vulnerable than his past self, does that mean that America is more vulnerable as well? That maybe America isn't the superpower it once was? And so our new Superman reflects our modern America?

    It was a thought that I had whem I read Action Comics 1.

    But he's definitely back to Superman level in Justice League, so you may be thinking of this too much.

    http://www.usgamer.net/
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    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
  • TairuTairu Registered User regular
    Sounds more like Jack Hawksmoor's powers.

  • TurambarTurambar Independent Registered User regular
    Isn't Supes a "citizen of the world" now?

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Superman doesn't really represent America (after all, in Action Comics the US army is after him!)

    I think he represents many ideals that are connected deeply with American ideals (or at least the highest interpretation of American ideals), but those ideals are not limited to the US.

    Also he isn't less vulnerable because this is specifically shown as being in Superman's past before he developed his full powers. He is also depicted as growing in strength, should we take that as a metaphor for growing American strength? I don't really think so.

    Solar on
  • JaythreefJaythreef Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Tairu wrote:
    Sounds more like Jack Hawksmoor's powers.



    Or Uncle Sam. Doesn't he grow stronger proportional to the people's faith in America or something like that?

    Jaythreef on
  • CadeCade Eppur si muove.Registered User regular
    Fun fact: Superman use to be all about the people when first created, he use to smash greedy capitalist types and more. It wasn't until World War II came around that he became the "Truth, justice and the American way".

  • TairuTairu Registered User regular
    Jaythreef wrote:
    Tairu wrote:
    Sounds more like Jack Hawksmoor's powers.

    Or Uncle Sam. Doesn't he grow stronger proportional to the people's faith in America or something like that?

    That is incredibly more accurate, yes.

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Well, America's not getting laid as much as it used to, so in that sense, Superman's totally a metaphor for America.

    Honestly, having only read the interviews and such, not the actual book, I can't comment too much. But I am curious to see how Superman's journey as a crusader for social justice, fighting against corporatists and the establishment, will actually end. At some point, it seems like he'll be forced to compromise, putting on a suit of armor and making nice with the government, joining the Justice League, etc.

    It seems like that's where you'll see Morrison use Superman as a metaphor for today's world, where good-hearted optimists are always forced into compromise with cynical pragmatists, typically with little being gained.

    Munch on
  • Ronin356Ronin356 Nowhere MORegistered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Munch wrote:
    Well, America's not getting laid as much as it used to, so in that sense, Superman's totally a metaphor for America.

    Honestly, having only read the interviews and such, not the actual book, I can't comment too much. But I am curious to see how Superman's journey as a crusader for social justice, fighting against corporatists and the establishment, will actually end. At some point, it seems like he'll be forced to compromise, putting on a suit of armor and making nice with the government, joining the Justice League, etc.

    It seems like that's where you'll see Morrison use Superman as a metaphor for today's world, where good-hearted optimists are always forced into compromise with cynical pragmatists, typically with little being gained.

    In the Dark Knight returns, Superman was represented in that book as the complete opposite of his golden age roots. He was a complete tool for the US goverment. Which is interesting to compare the two takes on Superman. Maybe the Dark Knight Superman compromised to much compare to this Superman?

    Superman might as well be a metaphor for America. Just like the many immigrants who crossed the Statue of Liberty for a better life, Superman found himself in America. It is the ultimate immigant story and very American. Just like the hundreds of people who legally travel here to become American citizens for a better life.
    I was thinking that since America is facing bankruptcy, recession, terrorism, and mass unemployment; It is feeling more vulnerable. If Superman was a metaphor for American? Maybe the Superman of our era such be more vulnerable and wear armor? Just to reflect our changing time. America is no longer the superpower it once was, now its China.
    I was also thing that the armor of Superman is like the emotional armor that all Americans must put on to face the uncertainty of modern american life. If Superman was outdated and irrelvant before his reboot, wouldn't his good-hearted optimist new self make him even more an artifact of the past? I don't think people who have had their health insurance cut because of the ecomony feel the same good-hearted optismist? If you are Superman maybe you can't protect everyone? Maybe it's not possible without being stronger? People today are struggling to make ends met. So is Superman going to be like Olliver, the Green Arrow in the Green Lantern/ Green Arrow comics now? What is next? Sidekick drug use? I'm not sure people believe that one person can change the world now. Even if in history, it has been done. Just like Martin Luther King and Gandhi. We have a good hearted optimist in the White House. People have seen how much he has compromised on the stuff he has promised to get done.

    Superman means different things to different people, and is open to multiple interpretations.



    Ronin356 on
    Nobody sees a flower really; it is so small. We haven't time, and to see takes time - like to have a friend takes time.
    Georgia O'Keeffe
    Be sure to like my Comic Book "Last Words" on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Last-Words-The-Comic-Book/458405034287767
    and Magenta the Witchgirl!: http://www.drunkduck.com/Magenta_the_Witchgirl/



  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    You're kind of really looking into this too much.

    Also DKR Superman is terrible because Frank Miller can't write Superman to save his life

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  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    The thing about Superman stories is that often they tell you a lot about the author of the story, because how they write him reflects their belief in how good a real person can be. Some don't believe that people can be that good, so they write a more flawed Superman. Frank Miller is definitely one of those people. He sees someone presented as good as Superman is supposed to be, and he can't believe it. He sees that kind of goodness as just a mask for hypocrisy.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Blankzilla wrote:
    You're kind of really looking into this too much.

    Also DKR Superman is terrible because Frank Miller can't write Superman to save his life

    I dunno, Superman is one of those Superheroes who is frankly iconic and can be discussed with this depth and even much further. Superman as a metaphor for America is certainly a discussion that can be had.

    DKR Superman is terrible though it's true.

    Solar on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    Yeah, that's a little bit of a negative attitude. We've enough 'omg this is aces' threads that I think we can stand having one in which to talk in more depth.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    I always liked DKR Superman, it was DK2 Superman that was stupid, since it goes beyond Superman beating up some soviets (he was doing that to the middle east dictators in the regular books at the time) and blackmailing Clark and other heroes into working for the government.

    Metaphor for America is too much like Captain America. Superman should always be the best of America/people in general, no matter what the times call for. If people are more jaded because of the times it's their own fault, don't drag Superman down with you. Now, always positive Clark in the face of angry people is a different story, and something that should be looked at more instead of making Superman lash out at "the man."

    TexiKen on
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I mean if Superhero comics and characters cannot be seen and used as metaphors for significant social, political and cultural ideals and aspects of the real world then I might as well throw out all the research I have been doing for my dissertation and go back to reading medieval court rolls.

  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    But what does the V-neck mean

    In all seriousness, whether direct and conscious or not, I agree with Solar and to an extent the OP (who I think takes it too far as a direct, intentional connection). These characters always reflect the world around us, and Superman and Captain America are at the top of that ladder because they were created directly in response to socio-political circumstances.

  • CadeCade Eppur si muove.Registered User regular
    Hey I got to ask, didn't Johns pretty much write before the reboot that Superman had adventures with the Legion again and how that inspired them?

    With the reboot isn't all that gone out the window again. I only ask because I remember that supposedly screwing up the Legion for decades after the original Crisis.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Talking about Superman I just had the "Superman is too powerful to be relatable or interesting!" argument with someone again.

    I swear the next time someone honestly tries to pull that one I might just scream "SUPERMAN IS GREAT SHUT THE FUCK UP" in their face.

  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    Dark Knight Returns Superman is so weird. I mean, yeah, Miller writes him as this kind of simpering tool for the status quo, but then he goes and gives him one of the best Superman moments ever. "TWENTY MILLIONS die in FIRE - if I am WEAK...."

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Cade wrote:
    Hey I got to ask, didn't Johns pretty much write before the reboot that Superman had adventures with the Legion again and how that inspired them?

    With the reboot isn't all that gone out the window again. I only ask because I remember that supposedly screwing up the Legion for decades after the original Crisis.
    It probably isn't since Clark's landlady(who is Ms. Nyxly, teasing something else entirely) mentioned that Clark's friends showed up again. 2 men and a very pretty blonde girl.

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    BlankZoe on
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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    She may be pretty

    But those are some crazy eyes right there

    I guess the question is, what side of the line is she on?

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I love Gary Frank

    like he is in my top 5 artists

    but man he gives people crazy eyes sometimes

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Oh yeah I do love Gary Frank

    He draws really lovely stuff and his Superman art is usually beautiful

    But those crazy eyes

    they haunt my dreams

    Solar on
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    Solar wrote:
    She may be pretty

    But those are some crazy eyes right there

    I guess the question is, what side of the line is she on?

    Great suction comes at a price my young friend. In time, that "crazy eyes" look, will be one you enjoy.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    tumblr_lpz8h8y70X1qd39tro1_500.jpg

    PEOPLE

  • TyrantCowTyrantCow Registered User regular
    wait

    so, if humans are exposed to a red sun, what happens?

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Wasn't there a brave and bold or JLA where batman/superman teamed up on Krypton and Bats got to be all superman and awesome, and Superman was just sorta screwed?

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote:
    Dark Knight Returns Superman is so weird. I mean, yeah, Miller writes him as this kind of simpering tool for the status quo, but then he goes and gives him one of the best Superman moments ever. "TWENTY MILLIONS die in FIRE - if I am WEAK...."

    I don't know Miller's intentions, but what I got out of it had to do with how the world he depicted changed and moved on from what Superman could effectively function in as he had in the past. You might be able to suggest that the implications of the Cold War immobilized Superman. I could definitely buy that he has been spending the last few decades on call for preventing nuclear holocaust from occurring, and doing his best to avoid anything that might rile the Soviets or anybody else. The book wasn't that interested in explaining his motivations, but I read it being Superman trying to fight the higher stakes of the Cold War within the context of the U.S. Government.

    That, plus that ill-defined, Watchmanesque legislation that took place in DKR that kind of outlawed allowing public evidence of superheroics, or whatever that was.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Well Superman probably would take the US side in the Cold War if forced to pick one since he lives there, and so do all his friends and family

    But at the same time, I can't see him operating for the US government in that period. Especially because he'd be very aware of how the Russians might have percieved that, and thought it was a Superhuman arms race. Superman has always been pretty clear that he doesn't work for governments, he workswith them, and if the Russians had needed Superman's help then I think he woud definitely would have given it them. In the DKR this doesn't seem to be the case.

  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    I agree, but, this is Frank Miller we're talking about. In his work, all superheroes are Americans first.

  • Ronin356Ronin356 Nowhere MORegistered User regular
    edited September 2011
    HadjiQuest wrote:
    But what does the V-neck mean

    In all seriousness, whether direct and conscious or not, I agree with Solar and to an extent the OP (who I think takes it too far as a direct, intentional connection). These characters always reflect the world around us, and Superman and Captain America are at the top of that ladder because they were created directly in response to socio-political circumstances.

    Like Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. So the V neck is just a V-neck.

    Superman is Iconic. If the Dark Knight movie can be a parable about post 9/11, then Superman can be more than just a guy flying in his underwear! (Post- reboot). In the philosophy of Post Modernism, anything is worthy of literary criticism, even the back of a cereal box. Why not look more in depth in what is the first superhero??

    Ronin356 on
    Nobody sees a flower really; it is so small. We haven't time, and to see takes time - like to have a friend takes time.
    Georgia O'Keeffe
    Be sure to like my Comic Book "Last Words" on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Last-Words-The-Comic-Book/458405034287767
    and Magenta the Witchgirl!: http://www.drunkduck.com/Magenta_the_Witchgirl/



  • GR_ZombieGR_Zombie Krillin It Registered User regular
    I agree, but, this is Frank Miller we're talking about. In his work, all superheroes are Americans first.

    And whores second.

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  • MastaPMastaP Registered User regular
    That wasn't funny in 2006. Still not funny.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I dunno

    It's close enough to the truth to be funny

    He does have this weird attitude towards prostitutes about them all being powerful, liberated women

  • MastaPMastaP Registered User regular
    That is no excuse for referencing Shortpacked.

    There is no excuse for referencing Shortpacked.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Frank Miller writing women as whores is hardly exclusive to Shortpacked

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  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    i'm mastap and I can't breathe in space

  • GR_ZombieGR_Zombie Krillin It Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    MastaP wrote:
    That is no excuse for referencing Shortpacked.

    There is no excuse for referencing Shortpacked.

    I've never read Shortpacked, just making a flippant remark.
    Also, that's just like, your opinion man.
    That was me referencing something.

    GR_Zombie on
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