My reasonings for getting into programming are a bit shallow to be honest; I was actually studying animation for the past few years abroad, but ran into immigration issues thanks to the private institution status of my school. Because of this all the classes I took basically counted for nothing, and the lifestyle of an animator no longer appeals to me anymore.
My buddy does coding right now; never went to school for it, he's just self-taught. He has a job that pays 40k a year plus benefits, so he's doing pretty well for a 22-year old with no student loan debts to pay off.
A friend of my uncle is a programmer that pulls in six figures right now, and told me that after 3+ years in the industry that's considered the norm. Im at a point in my life where I want more going for me at my age, especially since my whole college experience boiled down to one big gamble that didn't pay off unfortunately. My uncle told me that I would have the right kind of mind for this field, and since I'm working 3 different jobs right now that's more than enough reason to get into this thing.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
I remember a big university, maybe Stanford, released a bunch of recorded lectures for free. I saw them on iTunes, they're beginner level so maybe a good place to start.
Lots of those videos are here including MIT and Stanford.
MIT's specifically are also here. I believe all of the CS videos here are also on that academicearth.org link, but this one also includes classes where homework assignments and lecture notes were released even if no video was made.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
Right, right. But would you do it if nobody was paying you? Money is nice and all, but you couldn't pay me for the rest of my life to do something in a field I'm not passionate about.
The fact you're learning independently does show the right mindset, though.
The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is commonly cited as being a really good textbook, although I'm ashamed to admit I've never read the whole thing. It uses Lisp, which is rather different from most languages used in industry. Lisp is excellent for CS concepts, though.
Forget about all the theory a moment, though. Get your hands dirty asap and make cool stuff. This is one of the few professions where we can build amazing crap just by sitting around thinking all day. It's awesome. Now, go back to the theory.
Get on IRC (I like freenode.net) or consult StackOverflow if you get stuck. Good luck!
My reasonings for getting into programming are a bit shallow to be honest; I was actually studying animation for the past few years abroad, but ran into immigration issues thanks to the private institution status of my school. Because of this all the classes I took basically counted for nothing, and the lifestyle of an animator no longer appeals to me anymore.
My buddy does coding right now; never went to school for it, he's just self-taught. He has a job that pays 40k a year plus benefits, so he's doing pretty well for a 22-year old with no student loan debts to pay off.
A friend of my uncle is a programmer that pulls in six figures right now, and told me that after 3+ years in the industry that's considered the norm. Im at a point in my life where I want more going for me at my age, especially since my whole college experience boiled down to one big gamble that didn't pay off unfortunately. My uncle told me that I would have the right kind of mind for this field, and since I'm working 3 different jobs right now that's more than enough reason to get into this thing.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
Like, 6 figures in the US dollars?
I've been in the industry for almost 5 years and the only reason I'm anywhere close to that is because I live in California.
KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
Salary is very, very, very, (one more) very location dependent. Some parts of California, NYC, and some high-end jobs in Chicago will get you into the 6 figure range just on a basic programming job. Beyond that, unless you have an unusually in demand or hard to find skill set, you're more likely to be in the 60s - 80s after a few years.
My reasonings for getting into programming are a bit shallow to be honest; I was actually studying animation for the past few years abroad, but ran into immigration issues thanks to the private institution status of my school. Because of this all the classes I took basically counted for nothing, and the lifestyle of an animator no longer appeals to me anymore.
My buddy does coding right now; never went to school for it, he's just self-taught. He has a job that pays 40k a year plus benefits, so he's doing pretty well for a 22-year old with no student loan debts to pay off.
A friend of my uncle is a programmer that pulls in six figures right now, and told me that after 3+ years in the industry that's considered the norm. Im at a point in my life where I want more going for me at my age, especially since my whole college experience boiled down to one big gamble that didn't pay off unfortunately. My uncle told me that I would have the right kind of mind for this field, and since I'm working 3 different jobs right now that's more than enough reason to get into this thing.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
Like, 6 figures in the US dollars?
I've been in the industry for almost 5 years and the only reason I'm anywhere close to that is because I live in California.
It depends where you live and how many hours you're willing to work and how good you are. Three years and making 6 figures is for a very good go-getter and who lives in a big city and works for a giant corporation and is expected work 60-80hrs a week on top of atleast a bachelors but probably a Masters. Even then, good luck! I think your uncle has a case of the exagerations.Not that I'm saying it can't be done, its' just not the norm. You'll have to work your ass off to get that.
Take a few of the free online classes like people suggested and see if its for you. Its a different mindset, some people can do it and some people just can't. I've seen some extremely smart people from fields that have disappeared just shoved into programming and despite their intelligence they can't wrap their heads around nested for loops. So make sure its for you before you invest the INSANE amount of time it requires to be really good to make the money you're talking about. I've been coding one way or another for 15 years now? And I'd say only in the past year or two can I say I'm a master of my field. Its not a short or easy road.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
Right, right. But would you do it if nobody was paying you? Money is nice and all, but you couldn't pay me for the rest of my life to do something in a field I'm not passionate about.
The fact you're learning independently does show the right mindset, though.
The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is commonly cited as being a really good textbook, although I'm ashamed to admit I've never read the whole thing. It uses Lisp, which is rather different from most languages used in industry. Lisp is excellent for CS concepts, though.
Forget about all the theory a moment, though. Get your hands dirty asap and make cool stuff. This is one of the few professions where we can build amazing crap just by sitting around thinking all day. It's awesome. Now, go back to the theory.
Get on IRC (I like freenode.net) or consult StackOverflow if you get stuck. Good luck!
Wait a minute, I didn't write that.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I'm pretty sure I didn't quote you, either. Is it possible that you inadvertently wrote my post and quoted yourself? Little mysteries like these run in eddies throughout the universe forum software.
I got a new HP Probook because my old laptop was so old that it's hinge was broken off and the whole laptop snapped in half. What a way to go but I knew it was coming.
I installed JDK version 6 and am trying to install Eclipse Classic, but no matter what I do, Eclipse will not run. It says:
No Java virtual machine was found after searching the following locations:
C:\Users\Cantido\Downloads\eclipse-DSK-3.3.2-win32\eclipse\jre\bin\javaw.exe
javaw.exe in your current PATH.
This looks like a chicken/egg problem. I installed JDK but why is eclipse looking inside itself to find JDK? If JDK obviously installed, where did it go, and why would I have to move eclipse there instead?
The PATH variable basically lets you open command and type "javaw" and it finds it there. Otherwise you'd have to go c:\whateverthefuck\javaw.exe instead and eclipse wouldn't know where it's installed. The PATH variable is sort of an archaic version of the registry.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
My reasonings for getting into programming are a bit shallow to be honest; I was actually studying animation for the past few years abroad, but ran into immigration issues thanks to the private institution status of my school. Because of this all the classes I took basically counted for nothing, and the lifestyle of an animator no longer appeals to me anymore.
My buddy does coding right now; never went to school for it, he's just self-taught. He has a job that pays 40k a year plus benefits, so he's doing pretty well for a 22-year old with no student loan debts to pay off.
A friend of my uncle is a programmer that pulls in six figures right now, and told me that after 3+ years in the industry that's considered the norm. Im at a point in my life where I want more going for me at my age, especially since my whole college experience boiled down to one big gamble that didn't pay off unfortunately. My uncle told me that I would have the right kind of mind for this field, and since I'm working 3 different jobs right now that's more than enough reason to get into this thing.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
Like, 6 figures in the US dollars?
I've been in the industry for almost 5 years and the only reason I'm anywhere close to that is because I live in California.
It depends where you live and how many hours you're willing to work and how good you are. Three years and making 6 figures is for a very good go-getter and who lives in a big city and works for a giant corporation and is expected work 60-80hrs a week on top of atleast a bachelors but probably a Masters. Even then, good luck! I think your uncle has a case of the exagerations.Not that I'm saying it can't be done, its' just not the norm. You'll have to work your ass off to get that.
Take a few of the free online classes like people suggested and see if its for you. Its a different mindset, some people can do it and some people just can't. I've seen some extremely smart people from fields that have disappeared just shoved into programming and despite their intelligence they can't wrap their heads around nested for loops. So make sure its for you before you invest the INSANE amount of time it requires to be really good to make the money you're talking about. I've been coding one way or another for 15 years now? And I'd say only in the past year or two can I say I'm a master of my field. Its not a short or easy road.
Well to clear a few things up:
- The guy isn't my uncle, he's a co-worker at my Uncle's company he works for
- He currently works in Texas right now for a school district, making about $79k a year. He's only doing it because his grandmother is sick so he wanted to stay close by; also the school industry is stable/consistent pay with benefits. He turned down an offer for $185k in Chicago over it
- Working for big companies is the only way you're going to get this kind of money (obviously). He worked in Holland for a couple of years because the company wanted his services, and made 6 figures while doing it. Other people he's trained over time make around the $140k/150k mark.
- He didn't get a Bachelor's in the field. In fact, he didn't get anything close to that; he studied something else entirely and was thrown into web programming knowing nothing at all. Somebody just gave him a chance.
- He did tell me that it was quite common to get those numbers after 3-ish years, and by the 5-year mark you can pretty much name your price. He would get call after call for great-paying jobs because big corporations desperately need guys like him since there in short demand.
This is all he told me. He says that if you change your job title you can ask for more money (he likes to call himself a Software Engineer, even though all he does is programming). I want to ask him if his circumstances are anything special/outside the norm since i'm reading what you fellas are saying, so i'll try to get in contact with him early next week.
It's simply what he says. If you're in the right position, you can name your price.
That doesn't really say anything about median salaries and cost of living, which is useful for building expectations, while the anecdote of one person is not.
On a semi-related note, are there any decent Web Programming schools out there in the States? My heart is set on attending Seneca in Toronto, Ontario in Canada, but my dad is having serious trouble believing that I could learn the same thing down here than up there. From what i've seen Toronto is a great place to work for this kind of field (and is certainly a more appealing venue than Houston), but i'm gonna need more than that to convince my dad or he's pulling the plug on my plans.
Most of my research so far in terms of schooling in the States has yielded very little, with most people telling me that Programming isn't something that there's really a degree for, as well as the fact that you pretty much have to teach yourself. I'm pretty sure that i'm not too comfortable with that notion, so i'm looking for a more hands-on teaching facility rather than the "here's the assignment, figure it out" philosophy.
Suggestions?
EDIT: is the website listed in the Title OP worth signing up for (www.ml-class.org)? Does it related directly to my interests or is that for another thing altogether?
Computer Science isn't the only way but it is a solid way to have the background to be a "Programmer." You see electrical engineers, math majors, finance majors etc. with programmer jobs because a lot of the job is just having the computer understanding and the problem-solving skills which you can pick up in a lot of ways.
If you're choosing a degree with the goal of doing programming for a living though, your best plan is CS. Stay away from technical college style programming courses, they are just looking to steal your money.
As for the course, it's not an entry level CS course. You'll want some first year grounding or equivalent experience to be able to make any sense of it.
Infidel on
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KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
My reasonings for getting into programming are a bit shallow to be honest; I was actually studying animation for the past few years abroad, but ran into immigration issues thanks to the private institution status of my school. Because of this all the classes I took basically counted for nothing, and the lifestyle of an animator no longer appeals to me anymore.
My buddy does coding right now; never went to school for it, he's just self-taught. He has a job that pays 40k a year plus benefits, so he's doing pretty well for a 22-year old with no student loan debts to pay off.
A friend of my uncle is a programmer that pulls in six figures right now, and told me that after 3+ years in the industry that's considered the norm. Im at a point in my life where I want more going for me at my age, especially since my whole college experience boiled down to one big gamble that didn't pay off unfortunately. My uncle told me that I would have the right kind of mind for this field, and since I'm working 3 different jobs right now that's more than enough reason to get into this thing.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
Like, 6 figures in the US dollars?
I've been in the industry for almost 5 years and the only reason I'm anywhere close to that is because I live in California.
It depends where you live and how many hours you're willing to work and how good you are. Three years and making 6 figures is for a very good go-getter and who lives in a big city and works for a giant corporation and is expected work 60-80hrs a week on top of atleast a bachelors but probably a Masters. Even then, good luck! I think your uncle has a case of the exagerations.Not that I'm saying it can't be done, its' just not the norm. You'll have to work your ass off to get that.
Take a few of the free online classes like people suggested and see if its for you. Its a different mindset, some people can do it and some people just can't. I've seen some extremely smart people from fields that have disappeared just shoved into programming and despite their intelligence they can't wrap their heads around nested for loops. So make sure its for you before you invest the INSANE amount of time it requires to be really good to make the money you're talking about. I've been coding one way or another for 15 years now? And I'd say only in the past year or two can I say I'm a master of my field. Its not a short or easy road.
Well to clear a few things up:
- The guy isn't my uncle, he's a co-worker at my Uncle's company he works for
- He currently works in Texas right now for a school district, making about $79k a year. He's only doing it because his grandmother is sick so he wanted to stay close by; also the school industry is stable/consistent pay with benefits. He turned down an offer for $185k in Chicago over it
- Working for big companies is the only way you're going to get this kind of money (obviously). He worked in Holland for a couple of years because the company wanted his services, and made 6 figures while doing it. Other people he's trained over time make around the $140k/150k mark.
- He didn't get a Bachelor's in the field. In fact, he didn't get anything close to that; he studied something else entirely and was thrown into web programming knowing nothing at all. Somebody just gave him a chance.
- He did tell me that it was quite common to get those numbers after 3-ish years, and by the 5-year mark you can pretty much name your price. He would get call after call for great-paying jobs because big corporations desperately need guys like him since there in short demand.
This is all he told me. He says that if you change your job title you can ask for more money (he likes to call himself a Software Engineer, even though all he does is programming). I want to ask him if his circumstances are anything special/outside the norm since i'm reading what you fellas are saying, so i'll try to get in contact with him early next week.
I'd be curious to know what exactly he does. I do know that some areas, like SAP consultants can make a lot of money. I know very few places in Chicago that would be willing to put down that much money outside of a Senior VP role or working for one of the trading firms. And even at a trading shop, I'd expect it to be structured more like what I usually get. Smaller base with bonuses anywhere from 20% - %500.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
He could be a legacy dev, like COBOL or something. Those guys get paid a lot for doing what no one else in the world wants to or can do.
@Godfather there's one thing you should take notice of when you're being told about all the money you can make doing programming. These high paying offers require him to move around the country and even the world.
There's money to be had for sure. Even the worst paid developers I know make higher than the average family of 4 income in my city at $45k-$55k/yr. But I don't see $150k to $200k/yr jobs just being tossed around at anyone and everyone, wherever you live, even for those with 8-10 years of on the job experience. Those are for people who are some combination of really good, really lucky, and willing to make other sacrifices to get that kind of pay (notice again how that guy is not currently pulling in that kind of money, only has in the past, and could now if he were willing to make sacrifices that he doesn't feel are currently worth it).
If you think you might enjoy programming, go for it. All of the regulars in this thread are here not just because we do programming as a job, but because we just like doing it. It's not for everyone, but if it is your thing, it can be a lot of fun and very interesting.
On a semi-related note, are there any decent Web Programming schools out there in the States? My heart is set on attending Seneca in Toronto, Ontario in Canada, but my dad is having serious trouble believing that I could learn the same thing down here than up there. From what i've seen Toronto is a great place to work for this kind of field (and is certainly a more appealing venue than Houston), but i'm gonna need more than that to convince my dad or he's pulling the plug on my plans.
Most of my research so far in terms of schooling in the States has yielded very little, with most people telling me that Programming isn't something that there's really a degree for, as well as the fact that you pretty much have to teach yourself. I'm pretty sure that i'm not too comfortable with that notion, so i'm looking for a more hands-on teaching facility rather than the "here's the assignment, figure it out" philosophy.
Suggestions?
EDIT: is the website listed in the Title OP worth signing up for (www.ml-class.org)? Does it related directly to my interests or is that for another thing altogether?
Most bigger schools won't refer to it as "programming" per say, that might be why. All major schools will have a Computer Science department but within that, you'll find specialization. A lot of it is theory and research but there usually is a more "active" stream. I can only speak from my experience (in Canada) and going to the University of Victoria (grad 2007).
I minored in the Software Engineering specialization. More engineering (i.e. problem-solving), more technical writing (i.e. documentation skills) and I wasn't stuck doing "research". I was writing my own router firmwares in C, Tetris in Java, etc. Almost all programs in the US (I assume) should have something that.
It'll be a 4 year course but worth it. But when you're done, you won't be tied to "web programming", you'll be to write software in anything.
More importantly, you won't be tied to "web programming" which is literally $10/hr outsourced or frustrating enough that you get paid a semi-fair wage.
As Gilbert0 says, you can be more "applied" focus just fine in CS. Especially if you take a co-op program where you'll be hired for some terms and work in the industry. Good way to make contacts.
He could be a legacy dev, like COBOL or something. Those guys get paid a lot for doing what no one else in the world wants to or can do.
I think we still have a COBOL at my work for the mainframe. Maybe one. And I think he works nights. So no one ever sees him.
Someone retired and gave one of the system analysts this big word doc of COBOL stuff she would need to get some stuff out of the mainframe and other oddities. She was like wtf.
jackfaces
"If you're going to play tiddly winks, play it with man hole covers."
- John McCallum
Then Clean Code and Clean Coder. These get hyped a lot, a bit zealous, but still very good stuff in there.
As far as pay, I don't know. I'm a geographer turned programmer, so I work in a bit of a niche field for a gov't agency, but it would take a ridiculous offer to get me to leave.
jackfaces
"If you're going to play tiddly winks, play it with man hole covers."
- John McCallum
More importantly, you won't be tied to "web programming" which is literally $10/hr outsourced or frustrating enough that you get paid a semi-fair wage.
As Gilbert0 says, you can be more "applied" focus just fine in CS. Especially if you take a co-op program where you'll be hired for some terms and work in the industry. Good way to make contacts.
Oh god yes Co-op, Co-op, Co-op. RIM (as in Blackberry maker Research in Motion) took at least 1-2 co-ops a term from UVic despite being 4000 km (2500 miles) away in Toronto. Having that experience (I didn't work RIM, I did a couple different Gov't ones locally) is what got me hired in 2008. Lots of people can read the books and know how to code but if you have a year experience than the guy graduating next to you, who would you hire?
More importantly, you won't be tied to "web programming" which is literally $10/hr outsourced or frustrating enough that you get paid a semi-fair wage.
As Gilbert0 says, you can be more "applied" focus just fine in CS. Especially if you take a co-op program where you'll be hired for some terms and work in the industry. Good way to make contacts.
Oh god yes Co-op, Co-op, Co-op. RIM (as in Blackberry maker Research in Motion) took at least 1-2 co-ops a term from UVic despite being 4000 km (2500 miles) away in Toronto. Having that experience (I didn't work RIM, I did a couple different Gov't ones locally) is what got me hired in 2008. Lots of people can read the books and know how to code but if you have a year experience than the guy graduating next to you, who would you hire?
I got a job before I even graduated by emailing my boss from a previous coop term and told him I was interested in coming back. Coop is awesome
The bad news is that I can't afford to study for another 4 years; at best i'll be getting an associate's degree here.
What kind of coding/programming do you guys do at work?
Get a job (entry level dev stuff if you can), work full time, go to school in the evening. That's what I do. It's absolutely miserable at times, but will be worth it in the end. Look to see if there are any transfer agreements between the 4 year school you want to go to and any of the local 2 year schools.
As to what I do, I'm a sr developer at a news/media company. Just got hired there a few weeks ago when I left a mobile media (ringtones, wallpapers, etc) distribution company. I'm currently designing and then building a mobile messaging/marketing platform (sms blasts, sms polling and contests, text to get info on products, etc.) platform. It's all Python stuff, Django front end, Celery back end, possibly some stuff using Twisted in the future.
Anyone here work in Toronto by chance? Part of the reason why i'm deciding to study abroad is because I love the urban atmosphere up there, and I hear there's a lot of work for web development/programming as well.
How hard would it be for an alien or immigrant to get an internship while up there?
EDIT: I'm also worried that without a Computer Science degree I might be screwed. The best I can afford is an Associate's Degree program; i've already spent three years in a college program and I can't imagine doing another four again starting in my mid-20s.
You can make it with no degree, but it's much harder. In most cases you'll be paid less and have fewer options available to you, which means it's harder to move on and easier to get bored with what you're doing.
I dropped out of college back in '98. I slowly worked my way up into Sr. Dev positions through a combination of busting my ass on my own to learn, luck, and being underpaid (although still not poorly paid compared to many other professions). In 2003 or 2004 I started back to school for a certificate in network support/administration from a local community college - it took until 2010 to finish due to various issues, some my fault, some not. I then immediately started back up in a proper CS degree program at a different community college which will transfer to VCU and let me go into their CS program as a Jr. It's been a lot of school and a lot of money. I'm currently taking 8-10 hrs of classes per semester depending on what's available plus working full time now at 31.
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I have a hard time working and schooling at the same time. I didn't work at all last year, this year I'm trying to do my senior year and work part time as a continuation of my summer internship, but I told them if things start hitting fans work is going to be the first thing I drop.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
Posts
My buddy does coding right now; never went to school for it, he's just self-taught. He has a job that pays 40k a year plus benefits, so he's doing pretty well for a 22-year old with no student loan debts to pay off.
A friend of my uncle is a programmer that pulls in six figures right now, and told me that after 3+ years in the industry that's considered the norm. Im at a point in my life where I want more going for me at my age, especially since my whole college experience boiled down to one big gamble that didn't pay off unfortunately. My uncle told me that I would have the right kind of mind for this field, and since I'm working 3 different jobs right now that's more than enough reason to get into this thing.
So for the most part it's basically money-related issues that motivates me, but I think it would be cool to figure out how programming works in general so I could make something for me one day.
MIT's specifically are also here. I believe all of the CS videos here are also on that academicearth.org link, but this one also includes classes where homework assignments and lecture notes were released even if no video was made.
Right, right. But would you do it if nobody was paying you? Money is nice and all, but you couldn't pay me for the rest of my life to do something in a field I'm not passionate about.
The fact you're learning independently does show the right mindset, though.
Random good reads:
How to be a Programmer
Great Hackers
I really liked How to Become a Hacker, although it's a rather opinionated and open source-y document.
The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is commonly cited as being a really good textbook, although I'm ashamed to admit I've never read the whole thing. It uses Lisp, which is rather different from most languages used in industry. Lisp is excellent for CS concepts, though.
Forget about all the theory a moment, though. Get your hands dirty asap and make cool stuff. This is one of the few professions where we can build amazing crap just by sitting around thinking all day. It's awesome. Now, go back to the theory.
Get on IRC (I like freenode.net) or consult StackOverflow if you get stuck. Good luck!
Like, 6 figures in the US dollars?
I've been in the industry for almost 5 years and the only reason I'm anywhere close to that is because I live in California.
It depends where you live and how many hours you're willing to work and how good you are. Three years and making 6 figures is for a very good go-getter and who lives in a big city and works for a giant corporation and is expected work 60-80hrs a week on top of atleast a bachelors but probably a Masters. Even then, good luck! I think your uncle has a case of the exagerations.Not that I'm saying it can't be done, its' just not the norm. You'll have to work your ass off to get that.
Take a few of the free online classes like people suggested and see if its for you. Its a different mindset, some people can do it and some people just can't. I've seen some extremely smart people from fields that have disappeared just shoved into programming and despite their intelligence they can't wrap their heads around nested for loops. So make sure its for you before you invest the INSANE amount of time it requires to be really good to make the money you're talking about. I've been coding one way or another for 15 years now? And I'd say only in the past year or two can I say I'm a master of my field. Its not a short or easy road.
A couple other programming courses/tutorials:
Google's Python Class
Google's C++ Class
The Python one was pretty good. I enjoyed doing the labs/exercises.
Wait a minute, I didn't write that.
Embrace the misquotes, adopt them as your own! It is the new forum way.
I installed JDK version 6 and am trying to install Eclipse Classic, but no matter what I do, Eclipse will not run. It says:
No Java virtual machine was found after searching the following locations:
C:\Users\Cantido\Downloads\eclipse-DSK-3.3.2-win32\eclipse\jre\bin\javaw.exe
javaw.exe in your current PATH.
This looks like a chicken/egg problem. I installed JDK but why is eclipse looking inside itself to find JDK? If JDK obviously installed, where did it go, and why would I have to move eclipse there instead?
http://www.java.com/en/download/help/path.xml
The PATH variable basically lets you open command and type "javaw" and it finds it there. Otherwise you'd have to go c:\whateverthefuck\javaw.exe instead and eclipse wouldn't know where it's installed. The PATH variable is sort of an archaic version of the registry.
Well to clear a few things up:
- The guy isn't my uncle, he's a co-worker at my Uncle's company he works for
- He currently works in Texas right now for a school district, making about $79k a year. He's only doing it because his grandmother is sick so he wanted to stay close by; also the school industry is stable/consistent pay with benefits. He turned down an offer for $185k in Chicago over it
- Working for big companies is the only way you're going to get this kind of money (obviously). He worked in Holland for a couple of years because the company wanted his services, and made 6 figures while doing it. Other people he's trained over time make around the $140k/150k mark.
- He didn't get a Bachelor's in the field. In fact, he didn't get anything close to that; he studied something else entirely and was thrown into web programming knowing nothing at all. Somebody just gave him a chance.
- He did tell me that it was quite common to get those numbers after 3-ish years, and by the 5-year mark you can pretty much name your price. He would get call after call for great-paying jobs because big corporations desperately need guys like him since there in short demand.
This is all he told me. He says that if you change your job title you can ask for more money (he likes to call himself a Software Engineer, even though all he does is programming). I want to ask him if his circumstances are anything special/outside the norm since i'm reading what you fellas are saying, so i'll try to get in contact with him early next week.
That doesn't really say anything about median salaries and cost of living, which is useful for building expectations, while the anecdote of one person is not.
Most of my research so far in terms of schooling in the States has yielded very little, with most people telling me that Programming isn't something that there's really a degree for, as well as the fact that you pretty much have to teach yourself. I'm pretty sure that i'm not too comfortable with that notion, so i'm looking for a more hands-on teaching facility rather than the "here's the assignment, figure it out" philosophy.
Suggestions?
EDIT: is the website listed in the Title OP worth signing up for (www.ml-class.org)? Does it related directly to my interests or is that for another thing altogether?
If you're choosing a degree with the goal of doing programming for a living though, your best plan is CS. Stay away from technical college style programming courses, they are just looking to steal your money.
As for the course, it's not an entry level CS course. You'll want some first year grounding or equivalent experience to be able to make any sense of it.
I'd be curious to know what exactly he does. I do know that some areas, like SAP consultants can make a lot of money. I know very few places in Chicago that would be willing to put down that much money outside of a Senior VP role or working for one of the trading firms. And even at a trading shop, I'd expect it to be structured more like what I usually get. Smaller base with bonuses anywhere from 20% - %500.
There's money to be had for sure. Even the worst paid developers I know make higher than the average family of 4 income in my city at $45k-$55k/yr. But I don't see $150k to $200k/yr jobs just being tossed around at anyone and everyone, wherever you live, even for those with 8-10 years of on the job experience. Those are for people who are some combination of really good, really lucky, and willing to make other sacrifices to get that kind of pay (notice again how that guy is not currently pulling in that kind of money, only has in the past, and could now if he were willing to make sacrifices that he doesn't feel are currently worth it).
If you think you might enjoy programming, go for it. All of the regulars in this thread are here not just because we do programming as a job, but because we just like doing it. It's not for everyone, but if it is your thing, it can be a lot of fun and very interesting.
Most bigger schools won't refer to it as "programming" per say, that might be why. All major schools will have a Computer Science department but within that, you'll find specialization. A lot of it is theory and research but there usually is a more "active" stream. I can only speak from my experience (in Canada) and going to the University of Victoria (grad 2007).
I minored in the Software Engineering specialization. More engineering (i.e. problem-solving), more technical writing (i.e. documentation skills) and I wasn't stuck doing "research". I was writing my own router firmwares in C, Tetris in Java, etc. Almost all programs in the US (I assume) should have something that.
It'll be a 4 year course but worth it. But when you're done, you won't be tied to "web programming", you'll be to write software in anything.
As Gilbert0 says, you can be more "applied" focus just fine in CS. Especially if you take a co-op program where you'll be hired for some terms and work in the industry. Good way to make contacts.
I mean nobody ever got paid for playing team fortress poorly.
I think we still have a COBOL at my work for the mainframe. Maybe one. And I think he works nights. So no one ever sees him.
Someone retired and gave one of the system analysts this big word doc of COBOL stuff she would need to get some stuff out of the mainframe and other oddities. She was like wtf.
"If you're going to play tiddly winks, play it with man hole covers."
- John McCallum
A couple of books that helped me out
http://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Thought-Process-Matt-Weisfeld/dp/0672330164/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318041735&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Passionate-Programmer-Remarkable-Development-Pragmatic/dp/1934356344/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318041804&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Pragmatic-Thinking-Learning-Refactor-Programmers/dp/1934356050/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1318041821&sr=8-4
Then Clean Code and Clean Coder. These get hyped a lot, a bit zealous, but still very good stuff in there.
As far as pay, I don't know. I'm a geographer turned programmer, so I work in a bit of a niche field for a gov't agency, but it would take a ridiculous offer to get me to leave.
"If you're going to play tiddly winks, play it with man hole covers."
- John McCallum
Oh god yes Co-op, Co-op, Co-op. RIM (as in Blackberry maker Research in Motion) took at least 1-2 co-ops a term from UVic despite being 4000 km (2500 miles) away in Toronto. Having that experience (I didn't work RIM, I did a couple different Gov't ones locally) is what got me hired in 2008. Lots of people can read the books and know how to code but if you have a year experience than the guy graduating next to you, who would you hire?
I got a job before I even graduated by emailing my boss from a previous coop term and told him I was interested in coming back. Coop is awesome
What kind of coding/programming do you guys do at work?
As to what I do, I'm a sr developer at a news/media company. Just got hired there a few weeks ago when I left a mobile media (ringtones, wallpapers, etc) distribution company. I'm currently designing and then building a mobile messaging/marketing platform (sms blasts, sms polling and contests, text to get info on products, etc.) platform. It's all Python stuff, Django front end, Celery back end, possibly some stuff using Twisted in the future.
How hard would it be for an alien or immigrant to get an internship while up there?
EDIT: I'm also worried that without a Computer Science degree I might be screwed. The best I can afford is an Associate's Degree program; i've already spent three years in a college program and I can't imagine doing another four again starting in my mid-20s.
I dropped out of college back in '98. I slowly worked my way up into Sr. Dev positions through a combination of busting my ass on my own to learn, luck, and being underpaid (although still not poorly paid compared to many other professions). In 2003 or 2004 I started back to school for a certificate in network support/administration from a local community college - it took until 2010 to finish due to various issues, some my fault, some not. I then immediately started back up in a proper CS degree program at a different community college which will transfer to VCU and let me go into their CS program as a Jr. It's been a lot of school and a lot of money. I'm currently taking 8-10 hrs of classes per semester depending on what's available plus working full time now at 31.