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The cultural permeation of athletes
Organichu
poopspeesRegistered User, Moderator mod
poopspeesRegistered User, Moderator mod
So in the MMA thread we're having a little discussion about how much of a household name we can ever really expect even the best and most charismatic MMA fighter to become (at least, in the near-intermediate future). Michael Jordan was heralded as kind of the gold standard for comparison, which I think is fair.
I've decided to make this thread to get a bigger audience for the discussion and see if we can find a consensus. I guess I should throw out what I'm thinking- the framework of my goal, so to speak.
1) assume a somewhat arbitrary age cutoff. Babe Ruth might have more name pull than Mark McGuire, but it kind of falls off the spirit of the exercise.
2) this is meant to investigate aggregate cultural penetration, not just among sports fans.
3) since this started about MMA (with its biggest infrastructure in the US) and many of the sports mentioned are primarily US sports, I hope to consider this list to be from a US perspective. Obviously this will skew the prominence of some entries (so for example, Iniesta or Essien would probably not be suited for this little activity)
4) try to keep the entries per sport to a minimum! Hopefully just one!
My list would look something like this, ranked from most to least known by the average American:
What do y'all think?
I've decided to make this thread to get a bigger audience for the discussion and see if we can find a consensus. I guess I should throw out what I'm thinking- the framework of my goal, so to speak.
1) assume a somewhat arbitrary age cutoff. Babe Ruth might have more name pull than Mark McGuire, but it kind of falls off the spirit of the exercise.
2) this is meant to investigate aggregate cultural penetration, not just among sports fans.
3) since this started about MMA (with its biggest infrastructure in the US) and many of the sports mentioned are primarily US sports, I hope to consider this list to be from a US perspective. Obviously this will skew the prominence of some entries (so for example, Iniesta or Essien would probably not be suited for this little activity)
4) try to keep the entries per sport to a minimum! Hopefully just one!
My list would look something like this, ranked from most to least known by the average American:
Michael Jordan (basketball) Tiger Woods (golf) Mike Tyson (boxing) Wayne Gretzky (hockey) Brett Favre (football) Derek Jeter (baseball) David Beckham (soccer) Williams sisters (tennis) Chuck Liddell (mixed martial arts)
What do y'all think?
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And that's not a knock on MMA... I just don't know that it's on the same tier, as it were, as more mainstream sports.
As regards the arbitrary age cutoff... it brings up an interesting question: Is contemporary fame more significant than lasting fame? It would be hard to make the case that Babe Ruth is less a household name than Mark McGuire... or even Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc.
But you could make the case that if someone thinks of baseball in today's context, Mark McGuire (or Barry Bonds/Roger Clemens) would probably be the first image conjured.
But in WWE/WWF, Hulk Hogan became a household name.
As a Detroiter, it feels wrong to not include Joe Louis. :P
I think the level of success is part of it but also how enmeshed with other culture they become. Michael Jordon and Tiger Woods did a million product placements. Mike Tyson had a super popular NES game and bit Holyfields ear. In comparison, I have no idea what Roger Federer has ever endorsed or what body parts he has nommed on mid match.
Manny Pacquiao is like Michael Jordan to his people, btw. Just not to Americans.
The only changes I would make to your list is I think Mark McGwire should go in Jeter's spot just because of the whole steroids scandal and his breaking the record. I think the average person would know his name more then Jeter (though Jeter is very popular). Also you'll want to add Michael Phelps as our quintessential Olympic athlete. Vick may be more notorious/known than Favre these days.
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Or Lennox Lewis, considering he dropped both Holyfield and Tyson.
Ali > Tyson in that case. He is boxing.
I feel bad that I didn't even remember Joe Louis until you mentioned him, legend that he is. Sugar Ray Leonard gets a mention because his name is unique, but the first three are truly "household names," while admittedly, Foreman's name is probably more because he successfully marketed an electric grill that sucks up more electricity than my custom-built PC that it is for his boxing prowess.
It's difficult to unknow what you know.
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Live: Kayle Solo
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Edit: I don't think any hockey player besides Gretzky is a household name to people who don't watch hockey.
While I agree with you re: Chelios... I don't know many non-hockey fans who would know who he is.
Jackie Robinson & Babe Ruth, chu.
He's also famous for being the biggest sensation in boxing in the 80s... the ear-biting thing came after he was fairly washed-up.
I have a few friends who are MMA fans, and I wouldn't known who CL is (possibly named him) and, say, Gracie, but that's stretching it.
Of the other 8 people on your list, I recognized 6 off hand, Favre took a moment to register, and I have no idea who Derek Jeter is.
Off hand, I'd possibly throw someone like Kobe Bryant on there, unless you're trying to stick strictly to people who are famous/infamous for their athletic performance.
As someone who doesn't really watch any sports, I'll get names that I become aware of based on random conversations around me, tvs on in bars, etc.
Edit: woah, this thread is moving. And I have no idea how I messed those two up.
totally missing the entire point of Chu's question! Yay!
# of people who know who Crosby/Ovechkin: 7.
Don't forget the rape.
Maybe Mario Lemieux. Or Gordie Howe, famous enough to be in a Simpsons episode.
This may be a misconception on my part being in the south where even though I don't know anyone with any interest in the sport it's drivers endorse EVERYTHING.
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Edit: Dale Earnhardt Jr ought to go on that list, yes. I don't watch NASCAR or any racing really, but I know the name.
I think there are definitely multiple possible answers for each spot on the list, but I'm just trying to shakily consider
1) how many people know about them, today
2) how many things about that athlete the average person could associate with them
I mean, technically OJ would probably be bigger than Favre... but his biggest claim to fame doesn't really seem congruent with what I was thinking about ending up with.
But yes overall I guess Ali could probably sub for Tyson.
Agree on Chelios. Ovechkin is the only person I can think would really qualify since I've seen him in those stupid Verizon Ovechtrick commercials.
twitch.tv/tehsloth
These days... There was a time he was known for being a boxer... like when he was a boxer.
-modernity
-how much they're on television
-how good they were at their sport
-whether they're still alive
-whether they're still playing
-whether they were well liked
-whether they have any products (Foreman Grill, Air Jordans, Tigers' face on Gatorade, etc)
There's definitely no right or wrong answer, though I think the one definite is that Michael Jordan is either at or very near to the top of the list.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Tiger Woods
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Wayne Gretsky
5/6. Jackie Robinson or Babe Ruth
7. David Beckham
8. Mike Tyson
9. Williams sisters
10. Joe Montana! Wildcard!
I went with past and present figures based on name recognition. #10 is kind of a joke. It should really be Dale Earnheardt Jr. I almost put Dan Marino.
I don't see how anyone could dispute Jordan, no.
Except maybe with Kobe... being that he's sort of this generation's Jordan.