I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
That, and it's typical for progamers to have their skills fall-off at a certain age. White-ra being one of the few exceptions.
I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
That, and it's typical for progamers to have their skills fall-off at a certain age. White-ra being one of the few exceptions.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not because "oh geez I'm 28 now I'm an old man!" and it's because they have lives outside of Starcraft and don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to.
I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
Yeah, I don't buy the past Korean attitude from the BW days that being in your late 20s/early 30s is "too old" to be a pro gamer, especially in SC2. There might be some deterioration of physical ability but it should be compensated for by knowledge and experience, all else being equal.
I agree that it's probably more due to other (non-physical) factors that few players past their mid-20s are still top pros. More than anything, the mediocre financial compensation for pro gaming below the very top level of play, which by nature can only be occupied by a very few players.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
That, and it's typical for progamers to have their skills fall-off at a certain age. White-ra being one of the few exceptions.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not because "oh geez I'm 28 now I'm an old man!" and it's because they have lives outside of Starcraft and don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to.
There were lots of progamers back in BW that kept playing full time but were simply not able to keep up anymore. That said, I don't think it is nearly as important in SC2 because it is a lot less mechanically demanding.
I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
That, and it's typical for progamers to have their skills fall-off at a certain age. White-ra being one of the few exceptions.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not because "oh geez I'm 28 now I'm an old man!" and it's because they have lives outside of Starcraft and don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to.
There were lots of progamers back in BW that kept playing full time but were simply not able to keep up anymore. That said, I don't think it is nearly as important in SC2 because it is a lot less mechanically demanding.
So where's your proof that they were practicing the same amount as they used to? Because, while I don't have evidence that they weren't, I doubt there's a significant difference in what your mechanics can be between the ages of 22 and 28.
I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
That, and it's typical for progamers to have their skills fall-off at a certain age. White-ra being one of the few exceptions.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not because "oh geez I'm 28 now I'm an old man!" and it's because they have lives outside of Starcraft and don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to.
There were lots of progamers back in BW that kept playing full time but were simply not able to keep up anymore. That said, I don't think it is nearly as important in SC2 because it is a lot less mechanically demanding.
So where's your proof that they were practicing the same amount as they used to? Because, while I don't have evidence that they weren't, I doubt there's a significant difference in what your mechanics can be between the ages of 22 and 28.
If I were to look it up, I'm sure there is a good chance I could find some evidence of them playing full-time still (but that isn't worth the effort and it may not exist). You're looking at the wrong age group, I would argue that a 16-18 year old would have better mechanics than someone around 20-22.
I take baseball almost as seriously as SC2, and statisticians ("sabermetricians") in baseball have determined that ages 27-30 are the peak years for a ballplayer, offensively. It's not uncommon for players to stick around in MLB until their late 30s. The reaction time needed to identify a pitch, its location, and hit it properly I think is at least as difficult as the reaction time you need for things in SC2, even the trickiest micro. And, even if your micro declines, that can be compensated for in many ways through knowledge, experience, strategy, planning.
So basically I don't buy that being over age 25 means you lack the reaction time and mental speed to compete in SC2.
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
I find it really interesting that the BW legends (NaDa, Boxer, July...) haven't been able to dominate SC2.
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
That, and it's typical for progamers to have their skills fall-off at a certain age. White-ra being one of the few exceptions.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not because "oh geez I'm 28 now I'm an old man!" and it's because they have lives outside of Starcraft and don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to.
There were lots of progamers back in BW that kept playing full time but were simply not able to keep up anymore. That said, I don't think it is nearly as important in SC2 because it is a lot less mechanically demanding.
So where's your proof that they were practicing the same amount as they used to? Because, while I don't have evidence that they weren't, I doubt there's a significant difference in what your mechanics can be between the ages of 22 and 28.
As part of a pro team, in a team house, they definitely were practicing close to the same amount they were used to. There are still pro-gamers that were A-team for 5+ years, but they inevitably fall. The most oldschool and good active BW pro is probably Midas, at this point, and he simply isn't as good as everyone else at this point.
I think it's a combination of a lot of factors. The future to worry about, loss of passion, younger and hungrier players, mental game not as sharp, military service, etc. etc. The young players, like Flash, were competitive pros at 15. That's absurd. They're just so fast, and so used to thinking about the game that the older generation can't keep up.
It's not just the micro, Orem. It's creating builds, decision-making, and multi-task at the same time as microing. They might still have the reflexes, but the insane multitasking and micro on multiple fronts of the younger players that grew up playing at such ridiculous levels can't be underestimated. I think it's more of a mental thing. I'm sure that playing at such a level when so young, like Flash, has changed the way he thinks at a physical level. I think some Korean show actually did a study of Flash's brain, and came to a conclusion that there was a significant deviation. Whether it existed before, or was developed, I don't remember. The reflexes and experience needed to hit a ball (yes, I know I'm over-simplifying a little, but you get the point) are not the same as the ability to think and control all across the map as in Brood War at the very top level. Being able to read the game so perfectly depends on more than just experience. The meta-game changes so much that it's more pattern recognition and gut feel/game sense that seems uncanny. If you watched the Korean Air 1 OSL finals, Flash vs Effort, there's this game where Effort had stop lurkers and was baiting Flash towards them. His scan landed literally perfectly on top of them without him ever knowing they were there before. After the game, he said that he just sensed the presence of lurkers. There's another ridiculous game where he saw that a zerg building had been placed a couple of hexes off, or some such, and knew it was a lurker all-in instantly. That sort of mental acuity and pattern recognition is age-dependent, I think. Just like younger people acquire languages and such more easily, so too do I think that they are more suited to SC at the very, very highest levels.
That's not to say that old players can't keep up. It's just that the younger generation that grew up studying the game and improving upon it will always topple them from their perch at the top. The older players are still A-team, just not as good relatively as they used to be.
My point is that the problem is not physical age, the problem is things outside of Starcraft. Like you said, worrying about the future, military service, getting married, that sort of thing. Just growing up and having other things to worry about than Starcraft.
If someone were able to maintain their focus and practice like they used to, I'm pretty sure that age wouldn't make that significant of a difference. The trouble is that as you grow up, your outside life becomes more of a factor. There is a huge range of APM for pro players, and it goes as low as like 200-250 or so, and as high as 400 something.
Again, maybe most people, as they get older, aren't as good at Starcraft, but it's not because of physical age, it's because of the player losing total, complete focus on the game.
16-18 seems like it'd be pretty rough to devote enough time to become a top-tier pro-gamer when dealing with school (and then eventually having your career interrupted by military service)
It's anecdotal and obviously doesn't prove anything, but let's not forget that the most successful player in SC2 pro gaming so far is age 28.
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited October 2011
A lot of top BW pros have special allowances for high school. For example, Flash and Stats from KT just graduated. They practice fulltime, without going to school.
Orem, to be honest, the level of SC2 pros compared to the level of BW pros can't be compared currently. SC2 hasn't developed to that stage yet. Watching the top level players in BW is just mindblowing. Even disregarding the level of skill, SC2 is less demanding than BW.
I agree with Lemming, and if you read some korean interviews you basically see played like Saviour and many others say just as much.
There's no sensible back-up to the whole "slowing down" of mechanics when I have seen guitar players well into their 50s absolutely shred at the same finger speed that a Korean progamer shows off.
Another part of it is the way Korean BW is like the friggin Disney Channel with the way they photograph, interview, and fawn over players. So its very easy to see players who have grown up become disenchanted to a degree with the scene. SC2 is breaking this down.
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I really like how Sundance comes over in interviews in general, it shows the dude is passionate about what he does.
MC vs ddoro on white right now. Aww yeah.
July going to get rolled, sadly... His ZvP isn't that good imo.
Btw, anyone here in downtown Toronto?
I believe so.
B.net: Kusanku
He has the mechanics to macro well but rarely chooses to play without some kind of weird early all-in.
FFE is fine but not on a map like that. On a map like Shakura's, sure.
Also, sure, on Shakuras...Shakuras is the safest toss expand map imaginable.
Well you kind of have to FFE in the current PvZ metagame. It is possible to hold any all-in with proper control (and a good map for FFE).
It should be fairly safe on Antiga Shipyard and TDA as well. Not sure if they have any of the other good FFE maps in this pool.
MLG!!! WRA!!!
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Boxer and July are well past their prime, and NaDa goes to university full time.
I think by "past their prime" you mean "they don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to, since they now have lives outside of Starcraft."
That, and it's typical for progamers to have their skills fall-off at a certain age. White-ra being one of the few exceptions.
Again, I'm pretty sure that's not because "oh geez I'm 28 now I'm an old man!" and it's because they have lives outside of Starcraft and don't practice anywhere near as hardcore as they used to.
Yeah, I don't buy the past Korean attitude from the BW days that being in your late 20s/early 30s is "too old" to be a pro gamer, especially in SC2. There might be some deterioration of physical ability but it should be compensated for by knowledge and experience, all else being equal.
I agree that it's probably more due to other (non-physical) factors that few players past their mid-20s are still top pros. More than anything, the mediocre financial compensation for pro gaming below the very top level of play, which by nature can only be occupied by a very few players.
Roach burrow will be unstoppable if you take out obs.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
There were lots of progamers back in BW that kept playing full time but were simply not able to keep up anymore. That said, I don't think it is nearly as important in SC2 because it is a lot less mechanically demanding.
So where's your proof that they were practicing the same amount as they used to? Because, while I don't have evidence that they weren't, I doubt there's a significant difference in what your mechanics can be between the ages of 22 and 28.
Storm also sucks a dick against roaches.
aaaaaaaaaaaaawww yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
If I were to look it up, I'm sure there is a good chance I could find some evidence of them playing full-time still (but that isn't worth the effort and it may not exist). You're looking at the wrong age group, I would argue that a 16-18 year old would have better mechanics than someone around 20-22.
So basically I don't buy that being over age 25 means you lack the reaction time and mental speed to compete in SC2.
As part of a pro team, in a team house, they definitely were practicing close to the same amount they were used to. There are still pro-gamers that were A-team for 5+ years, but they inevitably fall. The most oldschool and good active BW pro is probably Midas, at this point, and he simply isn't as good as everyone else at this point.
I think it's a combination of a lot of factors. The future to worry about, loss of passion, younger and hungrier players, mental game not as sharp, military service, etc. etc. The young players, like Flash, were competitive pros at 15. That's absurd. They're just so fast, and so used to thinking about the game that the older generation can't keep up.
It's not just the micro, Orem. It's creating builds, decision-making, and multi-task at the same time as microing. They might still have the reflexes, but the insane multitasking and micro on multiple fronts of the younger players that grew up playing at such ridiculous levels can't be underestimated. I think it's more of a mental thing. I'm sure that playing at such a level when so young, like Flash, has changed the way he thinks at a physical level. I think some Korean show actually did a study of Flash's brain, and came to a conclusion that there was a significant deviation. Whether it existed before, or was developed, I don't remember. The reflexes and experience needed to hit a ball (yes, I know I'm over-simplifying a little, but you get the point) are not the same as the ability to think and control all across the map as in Brood War at the very top level. Being able to read the game so perfectly depends on more than just experience. The meta-game changes so much that it's more pattern recognition and gut feel/game sense that seems uncanny. If you watched the Korean Air 1 OSL finals, Flash vs Effort, there's this game where Effort had stop lurkers and was baiting Flash towards them. His scan landed literally perfectly on top of them without him ever knowing they were there before. After the game, he said that he just sensed the presence of lurkers. There's another ridiculous game where he saw that a zerg building had been placed a couple of hexes off, or some such, and knew it was a lurker all-in instantly. That sort of mental acuity and pattern recognition is age-dependent, I think. Just like younger people acquire languages and such more easily, so too do I think that they are more suited to SC at the very, very highest levels.
That's not to say that old players can't keep up. It's just that the younger generation that grew up studying the game and improving upon it will always topple them from their perch at the top. The older players are still A-team, just not as good relatively as they used to be.
If someone were able to maintain their focus and practice like they used to, I'm pretty sure that age wouldn't make that significant of a difference. The trouble is that as you grow up, your outside life becomes more of a factor. There is a huge range of APM for pro players, and it goes as low as like 200-250 or so, and as high as 400 something.
Again, maybe most people, as they get older, aren't as good at Starcraft, but it's not because of physical age, it's because of the player losing total, complete focus on the game.
Orem, to be honest, the level of SC2 pros compared to the level of BW pros can't be compared currently. SC2 hasn't developed to that stage yet. Watching the top level players in BW is just mindblowing. Even disregarding the level of skill, SC2 is less demanding than BW.
There's no sensible back-up to the whole "slowing down" of mechanics when I have seen guitar players well into their 50s absolutely shred at the same finger speed that a Korean progamer shows off.
Another part of it is the way Korean BW is like the friggin Disney Channel with the way they photograph, interview, and fawn over players. So its very easy to see players who have grown up become disenchanted to a degree with the scene. SC2 is breaking this down.