Orem, to be honest, the level of SC2 pros compared to the level of BW pros can't be compared currently. SC2 hasn't developed to that stage yet. Watching the top level players in BW is just mindblowing. Even disregarding the level of skill, SC2 is less demanding than BW.
I agree, but that is part of why I don't really think those attitudes about age are really applicable. SC2 isn't driven by pure mechanics that much. I mean they obviously matter but I don't think to a point beyond what a 30-something player could attain
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Yeah a lot of players simply lose passion for the game. See:Idra, Tyler
There are tons of reasons that older players aren't competitive in the scene, but none of those reasons are failures in dexterity or mechanical proficiency. Hell MVP has serious carpal tunnel issues and he's only 20 while Nestea has beastly nerd wrists that never die.
Are we really pretending there's some age limit to pro-gaming that is more demanding with a higher curve than *ACTUAL SPORTS*?
Because that is just fucking stupid. Sorry.
Unfortunately that is/was apparently the prevailing attitude in the Korean pro gaming scene
This is also coming from the country that believes in fan death. Grain of salt and all.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
It's not just the physical aspects of it. Piano players have more finger speed by far than SC players. It's the mental slowdown relative to the younger player as well.
Yeah, a lot of old players dropped out of the A-team or went into commentating and so on because of the external factors like worrying about the future and so on. It's true that those are factors that cause people to fall off and retire. Any old school player can stay in the A-team if they stick to practicing as much as they used to and dedicated their lives. But after their peak, they will almost never regain that level relative to the rest of the scene.
Even July's final OSL was not him playing at anywhere the top of the scene. His 5pool mindfucked Best, and Best's PvZ was never his best matchup.
The problem is that we don't have any conclusive evidence showing one way or another that older players can't keep up their level because of age or because of outside factors. It would be an interesting study though.
I'm pretty surprised this line of reasoning is getting the time of day in this thread.
Yeah there might be something to it, but there's so little data because so many people retire / lose their motivation / get married before you can use them to draw any inferences.
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I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Yeah a lot of players simply lose passion for the game. See:Idra, Tyler
There are tons of reasons that older players aren't competitive in the scene, but none of those reasons are failures in dexterity or mechanical proficiency. Hell MVP has serious carpal tunnel issues and he's only 20 while Nestea has beastly nerd wrists that never die.
I don't know anyone that argues that people don't the dexterity for BW when they get old. When players are "fast", they don't just mean that they can click super fast. It's effective APM that they talk about. Look at Jaedong. He plays with literally like 400 EAPM. The multi-task is the hard part of speed, not the actual clicking.
As for curves compared to BW and sports, I think it's two-fold. First, in actual sports, people have physical trainers, coaches, etc. etc. that make them practice, yes, but also without burning themselves out. How many pros in real sports have fucked over their career by literally practicing so much they can't play anymore? I'm sure there are a few. But in BW, that was commonplace. There are almost more champions that had to retire a year or two afterwards due to injuries than there are champions that didn't. In real sports, a player is a valuable commodity that is kept safe. In BW, there is no such thing.
Secondly, even in real sports, top players fall off. They're still fucking good, but they're not the beasts they were. Just look at Federer. Is he the best still? Maybe. Probably not. Was he a fucking god? Yes. Similar principle applies to SC. The best of the scene drops off, and can still stay competitive, but they're just not as good, relatively, as they once were. But because BW is such a terrible career choice for everyone but the very best, at their lower level, older players get hit by the external factors of worrying about the future, etc. etc and then lack of motivation and such come into play.
Yeah a lot of players simply lose passion for the game. See:Idra, Tyler
There are tons of reasons that older players aren't competitive in the scene, but none of those reasons are failures in dexterity or mechanical proficiency. Hell MVP has serious carpal tunnel issues and he's only 20 while Nestea has beastly nerd wrists that never die.
I'm not sure clinical depression is quite the same thing as 'losing your passion,' and I'm pretty convinced from how he acts and the things he has said that Tyler is throwing down with a pretty good bout of depression.
As far as IdrA losing his passion, if he plays like this with no passion, maybe passion is bad for your game.
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
Keep in mind, when I'm talking about this I'm mostly talking about old pros in BW. SC2 is a vastly different game. Less strenuous practice, a possible better future for the scene, less mechanics required, and so on.
As for curves compared to BW and sports, I think it's two-fold. First, in actual sports, people have physical trainers, coaches, etc. etc. that make them practice, yes, but also without burning themselves out. How many pros in real sports have fucked over their career by literally practicing so much they can't play anymore? I'm sure there are a few. But in BW, that was commonplace. There are almost more champions that had to retire due to injuries than there are champions that didn't. In real sports, a player is a valuable commodity that is kept safe. In BW, there is no such thing.
This sounds like baseball pitchers until roughly thirty years ago. You could've said pretty much the exact same things about that industry for nearly a hundred years. Turns out throwing a baseball as hard as is humanly possible (95 mph plus) 130+ times every four days or so will pretty much destroy your arm, unless you're one of the super-elite who have arms that just don't get hurt.
EDIT: also, I know you said you know there are examples, but Rafael Nadal.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
I'm not sure clinical depression is quite the same thing as 'losing your passion,' and I'm pretty convinced from how he acts and the things he has said that Tyler is throwing down with a pretty good bout of depression.
As far as IdrA losing his passion, if he plays like this with no passion, maybe passion is bad for your game.
Tyler's depression has interfered with his interest in playing the game at a serious level. It has seriously muted his passion for the game insofar as he does not have enough drive to practice enough to stay seriously competitive. The two things are clearly related, I'd rather not sit here playing semantic games.
Idra had a long period of hatred/spite towards SC2 that put him in a bad mental state. He was playing and practicing yes, but without a proper mindset to capitalize on his skill, largely because he was not truly enamored with the sport he was competing in.
That's clearly changed in the last month or two, but that was a long stretch of grumpy poor play Idra.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited October 2011
Nadal's been battling with injuries now as well. Not career-ending, but it's not like he's an unstoppable machine despite his insane playstyle and practice regime.
Yeah a lot of players simply lose passion for the game. See:Idra, Tyler
There are tons of reasons that older players aren't competitive in the scene, but none of those reasons are failures in dexterity or mechanical proficiency. Hell MVP has serious carpal tunnel issues and he's only 20 while Nestea has beastly nerd wrists that never die.
I don't know anyone that argues that people don't the dexterity for BW when they get old. When players are "fast", they don't just mean that they can click super fast. It's effective APM that they talk about. Look at Jaedong. He plays with literally like 400 EAPM. The multi-task is the hard part of speed, not the actual clicking.
..right. Is this just an addition to what I said, or..? I'm not understanding how this relates to my post.
Secondly, even in real sports, top players fall off. They're still fucking good, but they're not the beasts they were. Just look at Federer. Is he the best still? Maybe. Probably not. Was he a fucking god? Yes. Similar principle applies to SC. The best of the scene drops off, and can still stay competitive, but they're just not as good, relatively, as they once were. But because BW is such a terrible career choice for everyone but the very best, at their lower level, older players get hit by the external factors of worrying about the future, etc. etc and then lack of motivation and such come into play.
Right.. but these are mental failures, not physical performance failures. My post was specific to that issue, and again I'm not sure why you quoted my post and replied with something like this. It seems rather odd.
I'm not sure clinical depression is quite the same thing as 'losing your passion,' and I'm pretty convinced from how he acts and the things he has said that Tyler is throwing down with a pretty good bout of depression.
As far as IdrA losing his passion, if he plays like this with no passion, maybe passion is bad for your game.
Tyler's depression has interfered with his interest in playing the game at a serious level. It has seriously muted his passion for the game insofar as he does not have enough drive to practice enough to stay seriously competitive. The two things are clearly related, I'd rather not sit here playing semantic games.
Idra had a long period of hatred/spite towards SC2 that put him in a bad mental state. He was playing and practicing yes, but without a proper mindset to capitalize on his skill, largely because he was not truly enamored with the sport he was competing in.
That's clearly changed in the last month or two, but that was a long stretch of grumpy poor play Idra.
Sure, that's fair. I just meant to say that Tyler's issues are much worse than simply not liking the game.
As far as IdrA, I'm not sure we have enough information to figure out what was up with him. You certainly propose a plausible explanation, but it might be that he hated the game because he was losing, and not the other way around.
Nadal's been battling with injuries now as well. Not career-ending, but it's not like he's an unstoppable machine despite his insane playstyle and practice regime.
I'm sorry, I was obviously not clear. We agree. I think Nadal's an obvious example of someone who has hurt his career by practicing too much: the kind of injuries he's been struggling with are clearly related to his being the hardest working guy on the tour.
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
I almost want to find a way to yell at Tyler and figure out what he's doing about his depression. I suffer from chemical depression, and I almost flunked high school and college because of it. I started getting treated in high school, got better, then during college I couldn't keep focused. Lost interest in my hobbies and studies, and had to re-evaluate things. Most important thing I did was get a second opinion, and I ended up being diagnosed with ADD (my first doctor refused to consider it, second doctor basically said "it's so obvious and a major contributor to the depression in the first place, no good doctor would ignore this").
So I'm taking medication every day for ADD and chemical depression, and probably will be for the rest of my life. And I'm totally cool with it because I feel like myself.
And from what I've seen of Tyler over the past year, it really seems like he needs to get to a good doctor and get himself on track.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited October 2011
More onto the point, MKP/BOXER IN RED! Gonna be sickkkkkkkkk
As far as IdrA, I'm not sure we have enough information to figure out what was up with him. You certainly propose a plausible explanation, but it might be that he hated the game because he was losing, and not the other way around.
I'd argue that either way it doesn't matter. The fact that, assuming what you state is the case, his losses effected his attitude so severely is rather telling. Look at players like Sase and Naniwa who are driven to improve by their losses and the stark contrast with Idra's "Fuck this game, every pro hates playing it" attitude that showed up in so many interviews and in-game exchanges that defined his long slump. Regardless of the cause and effect that mindset is poisonous to a successful competitive career.
Sase/Puma on blue. I can't tell which one to watch... : (
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
Basically, I think we're arguing two very similar things. I'm staying that oldschool top tiers can still be fucking good, just that the younger generation will increasingly displace them at the top even if they can keep up their practice and passion. Isn't that the same for every sport ever, electronic or not? It's just that BW in particular has such strenuous requirements that people at the top are so fragile. If you think about it, a golden mouse is basically winning 3 tournaments. That's like a 2-year period, yet it's incredibly rare to actually have happen. That's when the external factors play a bigger and bigger role because they can't stay at the top and esports is such an awful choice if they're not at the top so they increasingly enter a negative feedback loop that leads to them leaving progaming.
Remember that time 1/1/1 smoked Sase like he was a bitch. No idea why he started that Robo Bay so late. At that point it's just a wasted money investment, the attack was at his door.
As far as IdrA, I'm not sure we have enough information to figure out what was up with him. You certainly propose a plausible explanation, but it might be that he hated the game because he was losing, and not the other way around.
I'd argue that either way it doesn't matter. The fact that, assuming what you state is the case, his losses effected his attitude so severely is rather telling. Look at players like Sase and Naniwa who are driven to improve by their losses and the stark contrast with Idra's "Fuck this game, every pro hates playing it" attitude that showed up in so many interviews and in-game exchanges that defined his long slump. Regardless of the cause and effect that mindset is poisonous to a successful competitive career.
Yeah, definitely better to be motivated by losses rather than demotivated.
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
People talk about BW Mechanics like its some sort of insane wizardy.
Honestly pull up some S Class player FPVODs, yes macro and unit movements are very taxing, but you certainly see your fair share of slinging units around the map with unattended control, and tons of missed production cycles.
The main difference I see is just the elegance of it at points, never a misplaced building, and very strong planning/timings for swelling production or expanding.
As more gameplay devices get introduced with the beta, I think the mechanically ceiling will get stretched any further. Demand is the motivator of performance, and with more players interested than ever you will see a wider range of characters being succesful.
Alot of it is just irrational carry over from the days when SC2 was announced and Team Liquid had a meltdown when they figured out that you could auto-rally SCVs.The way people played in the beta was unimpressive sure, but SC2 mechanics are constantly improving and further approximating BW.
The worst is when players like Idra complain about how easy SC2 is. Talk about biting the hand that feeds. Idra was a friggin sideshow in BW. His most meaningful wins were narrowly eking out a few victories versus foreigners who were full-time students/employees, and making Tossgirl cry.
Yowch, SaSe wasn't even close to holding that 1/1/1. It seemed like he just didn't have many units, and way too many stalkers. He engaged really late too.
I'm pretty sure he wanted to move up to try and contain him for a bit while he delayed for colossus but he was way too late and lost his momentum for defending the push.
People talk about BW Mechanics like its some sort of insane wizardy.
Honestly pull up some S Class player FPVODs, yes macro and unit movements are very taxing, but you certainly see your fair share of slinging units around the map with unattended control, and tons of missed production cycles.
The main difference I see is just the elegance of it at points, never a misplaced building, and very strong planning/timings for swelling production or expanding.
I think the elegance you point to is really impressive, but I think 250 EAPM is insane wizardry, regardless of whether even more would be useful. That's 4 actions per second that are meaningful. 'Insane wizardry' strikes me as a fair assessment.
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
yeah ok, so boxer's not himself
he normally would walk over haypro with ease
he's prob. just recuperating from atlantic city
Eh, I don't know about that. Boxer seems to have constant up-and-downs in his SC2 career. He's not very consistent, and Haypro isn't a pushover at ZvT.
Posts
I agree, but that is part of why I don't really think those attitudes about age are really applicable. SC2 isn't driven by pure mechanics that much. I mean they obviously matter but I don't think to a point beyond what a 30-something player could attain
Because that is just fucking stupid. Sorry.
There are tons of reasons that older players aren't competitive in the scene, but none of those reasons are failures in dexterity or mechanical proficiency. Hell MVP has serious carpal tunnel issues and he's only 20 while Nestea has beastly nerd wrists that never die.
Unfortunately that is/was apparently the prevailing attitude in the Korean pro gaming scene
Yeah, a lot of old players dropped out of the A-team or went into commentating and so on because of the external factors like worrying about the future and so on. It's true that those are factors that cause people to fall off and retire. Any old school player can stay in the A-team if they stick to practicing as much as they used to and dedicated their lives. But after their peak, they will almost never regain that level relative to the rest of the scene.
Even July's final OSL was not him playing at anywhere the top of the scene. His 5pool mindfucked Best, and Best's PvZ was never his best matchup.
painuser asks for a pause JUST before the opponent pushes
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
is the currently definitive study on this point, so far as I can tell. And honestly, I don't know of any studies that talk about at what age the skills required for pro gaming begin to decline, but it's a pretty specific skillset and various sports have different peak ages. Tennis, for example, 22-26 is the peak for men.
Yeah there might be something to it, but there's so little data because so many people retire / lose their motivation / get married before you can use them to draw any inferences.
aaaawwwww yeaaaaaaaahhh
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I don't know anyone that argues that people don't the dexterity for BW when they get old. When players are "fast", they don't just mean that they can click super fast. It's effective APM that they talk about. Look at Jaedong. He plays with literally like 400 EAPM. The multi-task is the hard part of speed, not the actual clicking.
As for curves compared to BW and sports, I think it's two-fold. First, in actual sports, people have physical trainers, coaches, etc. etc. that make them practice, yes, but also without burning themselves out. How many pros in real sports have fucked over their career by literally practicing so much they can't play anymore? I'm sure there are a few. But in BW, that was commonplace. There are almost more champions that had to retire a year or two afterwards due to injuries than there are champions that didn't. In real sports, a player is a valuable commodity that is kept safe. In BW, there is no such thing.
Secondly, even in real sports, top players fall off. They're still fucking good, but they're not the beasts they were. Just look at Federer. Is he the best still? Maybe. Probably not. Was he a fucking god? Yes. Similar principle applies to SC. The best of the scene drops off, and can still stay competitive, but they're just not as good, relatively, as they once were. But because BW is such a terrible career choice for everyone but the very best, at their lower level, older players get hit by the external factors of worrying about the future, etc. etc and then lack of motivation and such come into play.
I'm not sure clinical depression is quite the same thing as 'losing your passion,' and I'm pretty convinced from how he acts and the things he has said that Tyler is throwing down with a pretty good bout of depression.
As far as IdrA losing his passion, if he plays like this with no passion, maybe passion is bad for your game.
This sounds like baseball pitchers until roughly thirty years ago. You could've said pretty much the exact same things about that industry for nearly a hundred years. Turns out throwing a baseball as hard as is humanly possible (95 mph plus) 130+ times every four days or so will pretty much destroy your arm, unless you're one of the super-elite who have arms that just don't get hurt.
EDIT: also, I know you said you know there are examples, but Rafael Nadal.
Idra had a long period of hatred/spite towards SC2 that put him in a bad mental state. He was playing and practicing yes, but without a proper mindset to capitalize on his skill, largely because he was not truly enamored with the sport he was competing in.
That's clearly changed in the last month or two, but that was a long stretch of grumpy poor play Idra.
Right.. but these are mental failures, not physical performance failures. My post was specific to that issue, and again I'm not sure why you quoted my post and replied with something like this. It seems rather odd.
Sure, that's fair. I just meant to say that Tyler's issues are much worse than simply not liking the game.
As far as IdrA, I'm not sure we have enough information to figure out what was up with him. You certainly propose a plausible explanation, but it might be that he hated the game because he was losing, and not the other way around.
I'm sorry, I was obviously not clear. We agree. I think Nadal's an obvious example of someone who has hurt his career by practicing too much: the kind of injuries he's been struggling with are clearly related to his being the hardest working guy on the tour.
So I'm taking medication every day for ADD and chemical depression, and probably will be for the rest of my life. And I'm totally cool with it because I feel like myself.
And from what I've seen of Tyler over the past year, it really seems like he needs to get to a good doctor and get himself on track.
Remember that time 1/1/1 smoked Sase like he was a bitch. No idea why he started that Robo Bay so late. At that point it's just a wasted money investment, the attack was at his door.
Honestly pull up some S Class player FPVODs, yes macro and unit movements are very taxing, but you certainly see your fair share of slinging units around the map with unattended control, and tons of missed production cycles.
The main difference I see is just the elegance of it at points, never a misplaced building, and very strong planning/timings for swelling production or expanding.
As more gameplay devices get introduced with the beta, I think the mechanically ceiling will get stretched any further. Demand is the motivator of performance, and with more players interested than ever you will see a wider range of characters being succesful.
Alot of it is just irrational carry over from the days when SC2 was announced and Team Liquid had a meltdown when they figured out that you could auto-rally SCVs.The way people played in the beta was unimpressive sure, but SC2 mechanics are constantly improving and further approximating BW.
The worst is when players like Idra complain about how easy SC2 is. Talk about biting the hand that feeds. Idra was a friggin sideshow in BW. His most meaningful wins were narrowly eking out a few victories versus foreigners who were full-time students/employees, and making Tossgirl cry.
I think the elegance you point to is really impressive, but I think 250 EAPM is insane wizardry, regardless of whether even more would be useful. That's 4 actions per second that are meaningful. 'Insane wizardry' strikes me as a fair assessment.
Why risk losing when you can auto-win? kekekekkekeke
yeah ok, so boxer's not himself
he normally would walk over haypro with ease
he's prob. just recuperating from atlantic city
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Eh, I don't know about that. Boxer seems to have constant up-and-downs in his SC2 career. He's not very consistent, and Haypro isn't a pushover at ZvT.