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I don't know how to be a friend
ReusableGore
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I alienate all of my friends, it inevitably happens every time, and I don't know how to prevent it. I know I'm exhausting to be around. I push myself to my limits psychically, mentally, spiritually, every minute of every day. It is the only way I know how to live. So being around me means you get pushed to, and most people are not comfortable with that. The most common comments I hear as a friendship is ending are: "You just need to learn to chill out" or "You need to learn to shut your brain off." These comments hurt, because I can't do these things! They are asking me to stop being me, and to start being who they want me to be.
To me, friendship is knowing and being known. Groking in the truest sense of the word. To throw away preconceptions, misconceptions, and fanciful imaginations about who or what a person is, and to allow them to define themselves through word and action. I crave this on some fundamental level that I don't understand. I am completely open and honest about myself, and strive to understand people for who they are, not who I perceive them to be. But what I find every time is that people flee from this, because often times they are not prepared to be honest with themselves about who and what they are, let alone be honest with another. I weathered the long years of depression making peace with what I saw in myself. Now that I'm out of it, I want to learn from others, or let them learn from me.
I feel that when I alienate people that it is my fault, that I have been unable to understand and accept them and be the friend they needed me to be.
Am I not being a friend? The only way I know to care for anyone is to challenge them to grow, to think. Is friendship nothing more than warm-fuzzy conceptions of other people built up during shared experience? Are we doomed to stay locked within our own minds, our only friends being the false constructs of other people we have built for ourselves? Is everyone alone as I feel and just fooling themselves?
Gah, color me frustrated.
To me, friendship is knowing and being known. Groking in the truest sense of the word. To throw away preconceptions, misconceptions, and fanciful imaginations about who or what a person is, and to allow them to define themselves through word and action. I crave this on some fundamental level that I don't understand. I am completely open and honest about myself, and strive to understand people for who they are, not who I perceive them to be. But what I find every time is that people flee from this, because often times they are not prepared to be honest with themselves about who and what they are, let alone be honest with another. I weathered the long years of depression making peace with what I saw in myself. Now that I'm out of it, I want to learn from others, or let them learn from me.
I feel that when I alienate people that it is my fault, that I have been unable to understand and accept them and be the friend they needed me to be.
Am I not being a friend? The only way I know to care for anyone is to challenge them to grow, to think. Is friendship nothing more than warm-fuzzy conceptions of other people built up during shared experience? Are we doomed to stay locked within our own minds, our only friends being the false constructs of other people we have built for ourselves? Is everyone alone as I feel and just fooling themselves?
Gah, color me frustrated.
ReusableGore on
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Your initial post, to me, seems to be a bit full of itself. Please don't take offense at this, as I'm just offering an outside perspective. "I challenge everyone around me" sounds like a euphemism for "I am not empathic and don't really consider the feelings of others". "I am completely open and honest about myself" sounds hypocritical, since you really don't seem to see the reason that you are driving people away. The line "because often times they are not prepared to be honest with themselves about who and what they are, let alone be honest with another" stinks of hubris, because it says directly that you think it's their fault, not yours. Yeah, I know, you think you are admitting that it's your fault that this is happening, but you are rationalizing it by saying that it's their fault.
More specifics would most definitely be helpful. It sounds like there are specific instances where this happened, and you are distraught about it.
As far as specific help/advice, get professional therapy. If you just went through a bout of depression that you have climbed out of, that is even MORE reason to get therapy, even if you think you've had enough. Re-adjusting to life after depression needs just as much therapy as life during depression. There are deep-seated issues here that sound like they need sorting out.
What, you want my life story?
If you don't understand where I'm coming from after reading my initial post, there is nothing I can do to make you understand. Not attempting to be inflammatory, just stating something I have learned from experience.
I'm not sure how you can go about changing this. I can't think of people who love to be pushed by others, especially by their friends. If anything they'd like to be pushed by professors, trainers, etc - someone above them, not on the same level. Not friends. Learn to turn this off. People will not spend a lot of time with you if you make them uncomfortable.
Edit: I'm pretty sure Esh meant that you should give us an example of you doing this. Your post is in fact very general. Think of a specific event where you pushed a friend to his limit and he didn't like it.
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No offense taken.
I fully admit that I drive people away by not conforming to their ideas of who and what I should be. I'll not even attempt to argue about who is at fault in such a situation.
I guess my question is, is friendship that conformation? Or is friendship instead the acceptance that people won't ever meet your expectations, and to care for them anyway?
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I cannot relate to someone accepting that they are bad at something, and still choosing to do it. I play a lot of golf. During the summer I hit hundreds of balls a week, I play fairly decently, always trying to get better. I have a friend who is... horrible at golf. Yet he blames it on everything other than his willingness to work to get better. As he plays he gets angry. I try to help, I do my best to be patient with him and to help him learn to play. But in the end he would rather play with other bad golfers than to play with me.
By thinking that they won't ever meet your expectations, you are selling other people short. That's arrogance, simply put. I'm not trying to offend, but you need to allow other people to surprise you instead of dismissing them. Sure, 90% of the time, such a person might not meet your perfect ideal, but then as you get to know them, the other 10% of the time will kick in and may give you a startling epiphany.
Until then, go out. Make those casual bonds. Be the fifth wheel or the "Bobby" among the Company, if you have to. Friendships can start overnight, but they are always a journey, and often one that is long and takes much time and care to nurture.
So, here's what I think is going on. I've bolded stuff that is "okay" and underlined stuff that is making you a "bad friend." Basically, it's fine that you push it to the limit and challenge everything and be all that you can be and all those other marketing slogans, and there are plenty of people who have no trouble hanging out with intense, Type A personalities. You don't have to change yourself or give up the things that are fundamental to your personality just to fit in with people and to have friends.
What you do need to do is understand that the way that you live life isn't the only way to live life. In fact, part of what makes you special is that most people aren't like you. They're more relaxed, more focused on living for the moment or just getting by than they are on examining every preconception, reinventing themselves, becoming an ubermensch. It sounds like what you want to do is turn everyone into yourself. You want to dig past all the bullshit that most people are happy to live with and find everyone's true self, bring up into the sunshine where it can flourish on the edge of experience and whatever blah blah.
Not a lot of people want this. Obviously you want this, so if someone did this to you, you'd be like "hell yes this is who I am feel the full force of my personality I am a liberated human being." In general, though, people don't want their fundamental personality to be a topic of conversation when they're hanging out relaxing after work. For better or for worse people are generally happy with who they are or at the very least uncomfortable with other people challenging their own self-conception. I know you think this is silly, and that if we were all honest with each other we would find the strength to search our souls, discover who we really are and who we really want to be, and then shape our lives with a sense of purpose to become dynamic, confident, impressive specimens of humanity. That's who you are, and I'm sure it's working out great, but not everyone wants that.
So, once you recognize that everybody isn't ready to hop straight on your train to Awesometown, and once you realize that it's not your job to turn everyone into paradigms of awesomeness, you'll stop pissing people off. Don't "push people to throw away preconceptions, misconceptions, and fanciful imaginations about who or what a person is" because these things are what we build our lives on. Don't "allow them to define themselves through words and action." They're fine defining themselves the way most people do. Don't "strive to understand people for who they are, not who I perceive them to be." Just perceive them. Don't worry if "they are not prepared to be honest with themselves about who and what they are, let alone be honest with another." It's not your job to be the honesty police. If people are living disingenuous lives, that's their prerogative.
You say you want to "learn from others, or let them learn from me." The "or" in this sentence is grammatically a little unspecific. What I think you're saying is that the second clause (let them learn from me) is another way of saying the first clause (learn from others). (The other options are that you want to do one of these things OR the other thing, and not both, or that you meant to say "and.") This is really key: others don't want to learn from you. You haven't passed the rest of us and left us in the dirt through your process of self-examination and honesty. You're just different. Not better or worse. Not superior or i nferior. You live a little differently, and if people want to learn from you, that's great, but don't try to force it.
Because right now you're just channeling your Type A personality into some sort of force that you believe has made you better than everyone, and you're using your superiority as a way to blame people for not getting on board with the way you do things. If you really were a better person, this would be understandable, but you're not better, you're just a bit of an asshole.
Really? So if someone is awful at drawing, but still love to do it, you cannot accept them for it? It's a ridiculously close minded way to approach things. So he's bad at golf, but he still likes to play, what's it to you? Golf is an independent game - his progress has no effect on your progress. So who cares if he plays shitty. Keep playing and have fun.
Honestly I can't stand it when people won't admit to their faults either and instead fully blame everything else, but if you care about that friend, mention it once or twice and move on. If it hurts you that much that he does this, break it off. The only two options that exist in this situation.
You cannot constantly tell him that he sucks and he shouldn't blame everything, and instead it's his fault. That shit would piss me off fast and I would stop talking to you.
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Friendship is not squeezing yourself into a mold you think others will find more acceptable. It is also not squeezing them into something you find more acceptable than their lazy, undriven present selves; it is also not a constant mental struggle to learn and grow and strive and improve and be a better person every second of every day, because for 99.99% of the population, that shit is exhausting.
You sound extremely pushy. People don't care if you think you're doing it for your sake, and they certainly don't want to be subjected to it because you think it'll make you a better person; friends don't constantly badger friends to be or do things they don't want to be or do. If something is blatantly wrong with a friend, and they want or are at least willing to accept your help, then by all means, you should help them. You come off less as a potential friend and more like an aggressive self-help guru. Those are not fun to hang out with.
(Edit: Holy crap, six or seven replies since I started typing this.)
If your standards for the average person is so high that you can't handle being around them, it is possible that you might need to do some serious readjustments on what you consider normal human behavior. There are tons of things people are bad at and continue to do, and acting like everyone should constantly strive to be better at everything they do daily is ludicrous.
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
You misunderstood, I was referring to myself as the person who falls short of their expectations. I don't have expectations of other people. I enjoy them as they are for who they are. Reality is always more interesting than my imagination.
I have tried many, many times to build those "casual" bonds. I have learned to do it exceedingly well in fact. But in the end, it creates an un-equal friendship. I get nothing out of it, they don't understand that, and it ends badly.
What don't you get out of it and what do you seek to get out of a friendship?
Seems like you have a specific mold of what a friend should be, and anyone who doesn't fit it is rejected.
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Every single person here is hearing the opposite.
This sounds borderline sociopathic. Do you have some kind of mental checklist going?
And here is your issue. You expect things from people. You demand things out of a friendship. That's not how they work. You don't understand friendship at all if this is what you think it is.
EDIT: Also, I'd argue that you aren't as good at building bonds as you think you are. I also think that other people recognize this when they interact with you.
Just... stop being so full of yourself. You are not the arbiter of how things must be, the sole source of truth and enlightenment. You say that "reality is always more interesting than my imagination" but you're failing to see that "reality" is far wider and more inclusive than "be the best you can be." Your friend who plays golf and blames his shitty shots on everything except him being shitty at golf? He's not rejecting reality and substituting a haze of lies and deception in order to build up t his idea of himself that he can live with. He's just bullshitting and trying to avoid the fact that he's really bad at golf. That's what some people do. It's the opposite of what you do, but it's not wrong or bad and even if it is, it's not your job to fix it. And I think you're trying to fix it, or at least you're not putting up with it, because you think that you have the answers and if people would just be like you and blame themselves and practice and get better then they could stop being bad at golf.
You characterize your casual bonds/friendships as things that you get nothing out of, but I think the issue is that you see the other people as having the opportunity to get something out of it, namely, improvement thanks to your helpful and constant criticism. That's not really what they're looking for in a friendship, and it's not what you should be looking for from most people. Friends are for companionship. Some friends will push you to be better people, some won't, but that's based on the relationship between the friends, not just on who the people are. You're a pusher, but you can't push everyone. Some people don't want pushing. And don't look to others to push you, either. Some will, some won't, but it's not their job. You seem to be fine at doing it yourself, anyways.
Right! The issue is, on a fundamental level, I don't understand what I'm supposed to be getting out of a friendship.
They are un-equal because the friend values our friendship more than I do. And I don't understand why.
Stop having expectations, they will never be met. You're building a wall for yourself for no reason.
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Talk to a therapist. You seem to have a very fundamental disconnect in this area.
This is what I don't understand.
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Except that you don't accept people for who they are. Go re-read what you wrote about your friend and golf as you have obvious expectations and you try to force them on him which leads to him not wanting to play with you.
You get to hang out with someone and enjoy their company, and occasionally have a shoulder to learn on if shit hits the fan. That is it.
How do you know your friends "value your friendship" more than you? You seem to think that your friends should basically just be you, so you can be surrounded by people as great as you (think) you are.
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
But I don't enjoy doing this, at all. I see nothing wrong with that.
Then don't play golf with him.
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
So far you've told us what you dislike, don't accept, and don't want.
What do you want? Do you even want friends?
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Correct. I don't feel this need or desire to just "spend time" with people. And I think when they realize this, they resent me for it. At least, I feel like they do.
If you absolutely cannot accept that your way is not the way everyone thinks and that that's okay, we cannot explain it to you. Get therapy. Not kidding.
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I don't, it was just an example that several people wanted.
Then you don't have a desire for friendship. So you can't be anyone's friend if you don't have a desire to be with them. Their resenting you for it because you come across like a pompous ass who thinks his friends should all be as amazing as he is.
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
I don't know, that is why I'm asking. I don't think I want friends.
Ironically though, behaving that way does appeal to certain people.
This is not a concrete issue with an answer that can be provided by strangers on the internet.
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Then be friends with those people and try and reach eachother's expectations and be the only ones who know how to live life, and don't worry about the common folk.
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
I appreciate the concern, but I'm not going to see a therapist.
I'm not convinced that not having the desire(need?) for friends is a bad thing.
I was raised in a very isolated environment, spent most of my formative years alone. I suspect I just did not develop the need for community as other children do. Not saying either is preferred to the other, just different.