I look forward to multiplayer being a little less hilarious busted in SotS2, hopefully. SotS1 Liir and Hivers were arguably the worst off. Everyone kills Liir in the cradle because if they get to the mid/late game they're deadly as fuck, but they really can't do much of a damn thing to protect themselves from a human early game blitzkrieg. Their growth and IO sucks too hard.
Hivers on the other hand are in a race against time, because if ANYONE gets Anti-Matter you're fucked. Completely fucking fucked, because then people can hit your worlds in a single turn, and Hivers thrive on forewarning. They're unassailable until the end game, then it's quite the reverse. End game Hivers tend to implode.
The truth is that the map and settings you pick determine which species are likely to be most successful, but Tarka were the weakest species in SotS1 by a longshot. I've never considered Liir to be weak early game...
a lot of this stuff comes down to playstyle, as well.
Yeah, a good Liir player wills station defence fleets and sensor ships in space halfway between theirs and their enemies worlds and instantly intercept whatever piddly fleet tries to come through, using their huge mobility advantage outside of gravity wells.
Yeah, a good Liir player wills station defence fleets and sensor ships in space halfway between theirs and their enemies worlds and instantly intercept whatever piddly fleet tries to come through, using their huge mobility advantage outside of gravity wells.
There's only so much you can do when every other player knows full well to make you priority #1.
The truth is that the map and settings you pick determine which species are likely to be most successful, but Tarka were the weakest species in SotS1 by a longshot. I've never considered Liir to be weak early game...
The devs made some very strange decisions with the Tarkas.
HP wise, their ships tend to have the strongest command sections, but the other two sections are almost always amongst the weakest. For those who don't know, why is this important you ask? Because you only need to destroy 2 of 3 sections to destroy a ship, meaning the supposed "strong" Tarka ships are actually pretty weak. Like, weaker than the supposed paper thin Liir weak.
Their cruiser predictive gunnery sections can also only ever equip polysillicate alloys (first level armour tech), whereas all other race's gunnery sections can equip all armours. I kept checking after every patch and expansion to see if they changed this, but no, it's the same every time. That's a double kick in the balls, because Tark's best weapons are pretty much all projectiles, which benefit greatly from gunnery sections, and their armour tech is supposed to be 2nd best after Hivers.
You can intercept everything except human fleets easily, and in deep space you can run circles around them with Liir ships. Sure an early human blitz will be hard to defend against, BUT, their speed and uninterceptable fleet advantage is countered by their limited entry points meaning you can just fortify a gateworld against them.
Their cruisers have the fastest strategic movement in the game. They raid you, not the other way around.
Trade is not an important part of their gameplan - it's just one small part of what puts them over the top.
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lu tzeSweeping the monestary steps.Registered Userregular
edited October 2011
Their economy is crap without trade, they only get about 80% planetary income, but 120% trade income. It's something they really can't do without. Their hazard range is also utter shit, I think it's something like 475 base.
I agree their strategic speed is enviable though, and starting with stealth armour can lead to some interesting early game strategies.
Trade is basically the entire Morrigi game plan. Their reduced profits from planets, combined with the high cost and low durability of all of their ships, plus the absence of any research speed bonus means that they need an incredible investment to bring a decent military force to the table. They can only bankroll a military if they're trading at full blast.
If you're trading ships 1:1 you're winning the war, and if you take out a morrigi world It takes a lot longer to replace.
Morrigi are fast and can do some nasty damage, but they're also cripplingly vulnerable. Tarka, Zuul & Humans are especially bad opponents for them.
They're a late-game race like the Liir. Just don't play against them in huge maps.
edit: their strategic speed is excellent, but it is also VERY EXPENSIVE. Gravboats might as well be made of gold ingots, and the mass of ships needed to get the fleet up to speed is really expensive as well.
The biggest problem I had when playing Morrigi was manufacturing fleets quickly enough. Their movement gimmick makes it difficult to build a fleet from multiple worlds, but a single world is going to have drastically reduced industrial output due to obligatory trading. Just about anywhere with decent industrial output will also be a tremendously valuable trading resource, so every forge world you maintain is a large hit to your income. Morrigi can really only maintain military force if they are suffering low attrition.
It has been my experience - and I have a lot of it - that Morrigi win MUCH faster without trade than with.
Any economic handicaps they may have are more than made up for by their advantages. Any fragility in their ships is more than made up for by their ability to easily strike at your least defended worlds.
and um... they have research speeds only slightly slower than Liir, if I remember correctly.
I know that they have research availability second only to the Liir. I'm pretty sure that they have a credit-to-research conversion rate comparable to humans. They research quickly by pouring more money into research than anyone else can reasonably manage.
How did the Morrigi in your games win so quickly? I've played hundreds of hours with Morrigi, and rush strategies didn't turn out well for me. Once cruisers came out I needed trade to keep up with more efficient races.
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lu tzeSweeping the monestary steps.Registered Userregular
edited October 2011
Same research as hu-mons AFAIK. Slower than Liir, but better than Hivers/Tarkas.
With their economic penalties, early game they are the worst researchers bar the Zuul IIRC.
I know that they have research availability second only to the Liir. I'm pretty sure that they have a credit-to-research conversion rate comparable to humans. They research quickly by pouring more money into research than anyone else can reasonably manage.
How did the Morrigi in your games win so quickly? I've played hundreds of hours with Morrigi, and rush strategies didn't turn out well for me. Once cruisers came out I needed trade to keep up with more efficient races.
The trick is to rush Advanced Sensors after researching as many IO boosters as possible, then send off lots of small fleets of cheaply armed (read: mass drivers) cruisers to ravage poorly defended worlds. It all happens around the same time you would be ramping up trade - but instead of improving your economy you wreck theirs.
It's worked out well for me, anyway. Well enough that birds were straight up banned by mutual agreement in my in-house games. I don't think we ever had a game with them run longer than turn 150.
Sokpuppet on
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AlectharAlan ShoreWe're not territorial about that sort of thing, are we?Registered Userregular
I know that they have research availability second only to the Liir. I'm pretty sure that they have a credit-to-research conversion rate comparable to humans. They research quickly by pouring more money into research than anyone else can reasonably manage.
How did the Morrigi in your games win so quickly? I've played hundreds of hours with Morrigi, and rush strategies didn't turn out well for me. Once cruisers came out I needed trade to keep up with more efficient races.
The trick is to rush Advanced Sensors after researching as many IO boosters as possible, then send off lots of small fleets of cheaply armed (read: mass drivers) cruisers to ravage poorly defended worlds. It all happens around the same time you would be ramping up trade - but instead of improving your economy you wreck theirs.
It's worked out well for me, anyway. Well enough that birds were straight up banned by mutual agreement in my in-house games. I don't think we ever had a game with them run longer than turn 150.
I've tried similar strategies. The people I was playing against online could reliably paste my CRs with thiers at a fraction of the cost. It did more damage to my economy than I did to theirs. I had much better success getting to mid-fusion before going on the offensive.
Were any of your opponents aggressive? I agree that Morrigi walk all over passive opponents. Hivers and Liir are at a disadvantage against them, and they're common race choices.
Were any of your opponents aggressive? I agree that Morrigi walk all over passive opponents. Hivers and Liir are at a disadvantage against them, and they're common race choices.
No and yes. You may be on to something. Which just goes to show that what matters most is the people you are playing with.
At least Solforce can't get node-screwed anymore in II. The maps have set node lines between solar systems and the systems are randomized game to game instead of the entire map. I'm guessing it'll also help cut down on the 'Human AI takes half an hour to take its turn' thing.
The worst thing in one was spawning with two lanes, both leading to locusts while there were six other stars just out of reach.
At least Solforce can't get node-screwed anymore in II. The maps have set node lines between solar systems and the systems are randomized game to game instead of the entire map. I'm guessing it'll also help cut down on the 'Human AI takes half an hour to take its turn' thing.
The worst thing in one was spawning with two lanes, both leading to locusts while there were six other stars just out of reach.
The worst was being in a small corner of the galaxy that had literally no node connections to the rest of it.
The space bees were bad, but I think that the asteroid monitor was worse. You could run a scout ship away from it, but any fleet with tankers of colonizers would be mauled on the way through. At least the scilicoids could be cleared out with fission tech.
Being node-screwed was the worst thing about playing humans, but node missiles made it all worth it. I really hope that they make it into this game as well. They'd make great support weapons. Ship them in on larger ships, then use them to shoot from one planet to another one.
I wonder how node fighters will end up working out.
Edit: Node missiles: when you absolutely, positively, must kill the alien living on the planet next door.
I pretty much exclusively play morrigi, well at least about 4 out of 5 games. I'm always taken aback by how cheap human and zuul ships are to build. I'm used to a 10 DE +CNC fleet costing a half mil or more, not 200k for 15 armors.
<rintaro> Maybe "Coke" doesn't like postings about "Pepsi" on their website?
<--- Is not Moe
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
I enjoy Tarkas. They have railguns, man, rail guns!
Anyone playing a multiplayer game of Sword of the Stars: Original tonight or tomorrow? I'm z0re on Steam and I'd like to play one last multiplayer if anyone does.
Some of my most memorable and entertaining games as Solforce had me nestled up against space bees and asteroid monitors.
And Zuul.
Always with the Zuul.
They're like possums with guns, always rooting around in your back yard.
But yeah, them space bees. Are, are we getting space bees this time? Because I honestly would not weep if the space bees were replaced with something more, less or equally horrible.
I always thought the apropriate end state of a human played match is when all an observer can hear on vent is snoring and the occasional sound of someone falling out of a chair.
The trick with drones was hitting critical mass. Putting armor on them helped too. Heavy drones helped even more. I never ran into PD missiles, but against anything else, you just needed to mass enough drones to inflict severe damage on the enemy fleet. Then you could retreat the drone ships and bring out regular combat ships.
You know what I hoped they changed? Being able to keep repair ships out of the tactical map all the time. It was always so fustrating as a hiver to kill off all the drones a morrigi*cough*kaorti*cough* sends at you then have them run away from your ships only to repair all the drones next turn and keep your planet under attack forever.
ya i remember games like that. I learned to be an aggressive asshole from games like that. Kaorti is a nasty morrigi.
Also. I am up for release day MULTI. however can we start it around 5 or 6pm pacific time? I have work.
Its hard to be aggressive as hiver in sots . And the main problem is morrigi are just way faster than hivers in general, so unless you are attacking one of their planets so they HAVE to try and engage you they can just kite you with drones and repair them after the turn is done.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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AlectharAlan ShoreWe're not territorial about that sort of thing, are we?Registered Userregular
Man, all this talk of drones reminds me that the last time I played this game was before there were any expansions at all. No drones. The only point defense options were laser, projectile and (if you were lucky) phaser PD, which I recall being a "get out of missiles free" card.
I remember crossing my fingers for the full AI tech tree and strapping AI command sections to everything that wasn't nailed down.
I think thats another issue with hivers. Their PD coverage is so terrible on most ships you might as well not even bother with it. Its a good thing they are so tough!
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Hivers on the other hand are in a race against time, because if ANYONE gets Anti-Matter you're fucked. Completely fucking fucked, because then people can hit your worlds in a single turn, and Hivers thrive on forewarning. They're unassailable until the end game, then it's quite the reverse. End game Hivers tend to implode.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
The truth is that the map and settings you pick determine which species are likely to be most successful, but Tarka were the weakest species in SotS1 by a longshot. I've never considered Liir to be weak early game...
a lot of this stuff comes down to playstyle, as well.
Invite sent.
There's only so much you can do when every other player knows full well to make you priority #1.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
HP wise, their ships tend to have the strongest command sections, but the other two sections are almost always amongst the weakest. For those who don't know, why is this important you ask? Because you only need to destroy 2 of 3 sections to destroy a ship, meaning the supposed "strong" Tarka ships are actually pretty weak. Like, weaker than the supposed paper thin Liir weak.
Their cruiser predictive gunnery sections can also only ever equip polysillicate alloys (first level armour tech), whereas all other race's gunnery sections can equip all armours. I kept checking after every patch and expansion to see if they changed this, but no, it's the same every time. That's a double kick in the balls, because Tark's best weapons are pretty much all projectiles, which benefit greatly from gunnery sections, and their armour tech is supposed to be 2nd best after Hivers.
That said, I've always been of the opinion that Morrigi are disgustingly overpowered in pretty much every way.
Their cruisers aren't too spicy either IMO, they're really expensive for what they are. They're also disgustingly easy to hit with combat lasers.
Trade is not an important part of their gameplan - it's just one small part of what puts them over the top.
I agree their strategic speed is enviable though, and starting with stealth armour can lead to some interesting early game strategies.
If you're trading ships 1:1 you're winning the war, and if you take out a morrigi world It takes a lot longer to replace.
Morrigi are fast and can do some nasty damage, but they're also cripplingly vulnerable. Tarka, Zuul & Humans are especially bad opponents for them.
They're a late-game race like the Liir. Just don't play against them in huge maps.
edit: their strategic speed is excellent, but it is also VERY EXPENSIVE. Gravboats might as well be made of gold ingots, and the mass of ships needed to get the fleet up to speed is really expensive as well.
The biggest problem I had when playing Morrigi was manufacturing fleets quickly enough. Their movement gimmick makes it difficult to build a fleet from multiple worlds, but a single world is going to have drastically reduced industrial output due to obligatory trading. Just about anywhere with decent industrial output will also be a tremendously valuable trading resource, so every forge world you maintain is a large hit to your income. Morrigi can really only maintain military force if they are suffering low attrition.
Any economic handicaps they may have are more than made up for by their advantages. Any fragility in their ships is more than made up for by their ability to easily strike at your least defended worlds.
and um... they have research speeds only slightly slower than Liir, if I remember correctly.
How did the Morrigi in your games win so quickly? I've played hundreds of hours with Morrigi, and rush strategies didn't turn out well for me. Once cruisers came out I needed trade to keep up with more efficient races.
With their economic penalties, early game they are the worst researchers bar the Zuul IIRC.
The trick is to rush Advanced Sensors after researching as many IO boosters as possible, then send off lots of small fleets of cheaply armed (read: mass drivers) cruisers to ravage poorly defended worlds. It all happens around the same time you would be ramping up trade - but instead of improving your economy you wreck theirs.
It's worked out well for me, anyway. Well enough that birds were straight up banned by mutual agreement in my in-house games. I don't think we ever had a game with them run longer than turn 150.
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I've tried similar strategies. The people I was playing against online could reliably paste my CRs with thiers at a fraction of the cost. It did more damage to my economy than I did to theirs. I had much better success getting to mid-fusion before going on the offensive.
Were any of your opponents aggressive? I agree that Morrigi walk all over passive opponents. Hivers and Liir are at a disadvantage against them, and they're common race choices.
No and yes. You may be on to something. Which just goes to show that what matters most is the people you are playing with.
The worst thing in one was spawning with two lanes, both leading to locusts while there were six other stars just out of reach.
The worst was being in a small corner of the galaxy that had literally no node connections to the rest of it.
Being node-screwed was the worst thing about playing humans, but node missiles made it all worth it. I really hope that they make it into this game as well. They'd make great support weapons. Ship them in on larger ships, then use them to shoot from one planet to another one.
I wonder how node fighters will end up working out.
Edit: Node missiles: when you absolutely, positively, must kill the alien living on the planet next door.
Then we'll talk.
<--- Is not Moe
And Zuul.
Always with the Zuul.
They're like possums with guns, always rooting around in your back yard.
But yeah, them space bees. Are, are we getting space bees this time? Because I honestly would not weep if the space bees were replaced with something more, less or equally horrible.
The Locusts are a grand menace. You don't get trapped in with the locusts, the locusts come, strip a world bare, and leave.
<--- Is not Moe
It's been a regrettably long while.
Always something cool about launching fighters. I also love the fact the hiver voice acting refers to drones as "wasps".
Also. I am up for release day MULTI. however can we start it around 5 or 6pm pacific time? I have work.
Its hard to be aggressive as hiver in sots
I remember crossing my fingers for the full AI tech tree and strapping AI command sections to everything that wasn't nailed down.
Sounds like times have changed.
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