Personally having been in several altercations where pepper spray was employed to disperse a small crowd it is rather effective at doing so. While it can be debilitating to most people if directly applied to the eyes, if sprayed in an area can quickly cause most people to decide they would rather be somewhere else due to apparently watery eyes, and difficulty breathing.
Isn't the argument in support of the cops that the dancers were causing a pileup at the exit that was becoming dangerous? That doesn't seem like the best time to make a crowd suddenly feel the intense urge to be anywhere else.
I mean, how many videos have we seen of protests or riots getting broken up with airborne chemicals? The reaction most people have is not to lie down and wait for arrest, it's to run, because getting hit with mace fucking sucks.
That doesn't mean cops shouldn't carry mace. But the need for it's use has to outweigh danger, which was absolutely not the case in this situation.
This is no where near the same situation. Chemicals used for riots is generally some type of CS gas or equivalent. The reaction that CS causes is far more severe than what you get from pepper spray. Using pepper spary as a dispersal device is similar to throwing a handful of cayene pepper into the air. It's going to make your eyes water and your nose run, it might even sting a little. But the pain it causes is no where near freak out and run mode.
CS on the other hand can make you vomit and burn skin if it gets trapped in your clothes. Comparing the two is like comparing getting shot with a bb gun to getting shot with a m-16.
Wrong. Pepper spray is significantly more severe in both pain and debilitating effects than tear gas. It does not just "maybe sting a little".
I would be more inclined to believe the pepper spray was warranted if the bald officer trying to move the young men was not making progress using only soft shoving. They are visibly retreating before the officer fires the pepper spray. The soft approach was working.
I will say the young men in this situation were being extremely stupid. Even if you cannot hear the officers were clearly telling you to disperse and even if fans and bystanders were telling the officers "no, its okay, let them finish" technically the young men are still in violation of the law and made a threatening gesture towards one of the home-town players, before they all start to shout and become aggressive.
I would be more inclined to believe the pepper spray was warranted if the bald officer trying to move the young men was not making progress using only soft shoving. They are visibly retreating before the officer fires the pepper spray. The soft approach was working.
It's not "Obey my command in fractional increments until you're obeying my full command." It's "Make a hole." The cops did not say "Disperese. . ." so there was nothing stopping them from just turning perpendicular and allowing traffic to move through them. The spray may have been overkill, but really anything that didn't end with the cops saying "Ahh fuck it, you guys find another way out. . ." would have been an over reaction I think.
I would be more inclined to believe the pepper spray was warranted if the bald officer trying to move the young men was not making progress using only soft shoving. They are visibly retreating before the officer fires the pepper spray. The soft approach was working.
It's not "Obey my command in fractional increments until you're obeying my full command." It's "Make a hole." The cops did not say "Disperese. . ." so there was nothing stopping them from just turning perpendicular and allowing traffic to move through them. The spray may have been overkill, but really anything that didn't end with the cops saying "Ahh fuck it, you guys find another way out. . ." would have been an over reaction I think.
Okay, but that's not suggested anywhere in the above quote. Smart cop decided to just try pushing them away and was making progress. Dumb cop decided fuck it, and jumped straight to attacking people with no concern for bystanders or their safety.
I swear to God people keep coming in here and arguing against invisible opponents.
Just from a meta-discussion standpoint, there are only three relevant questions:
1) What is the official continuum of force in Roosevelt, UT? (I can almost guarantee that "soft hands" appears somewhere between "verbal order" and "chemical irritant.")
2) Did the police officers follow that continuum of force? (Honestly, I can't tell from the video.)
3) Should that continuum of force be changed?
Stupid arguments like, "lol, do you think cops should just stand there with their dicks in their hands?" aren't constructive.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Anyone know what kind of pepper spray they used? Was it stream or foam?
I mean, how many videos have we seen of protests or riots getting broken up with airborne chemicals? The reaction most people have is not to lie down and wait for arrest, it's to run, because getting hit with mace fucking sucks.
That doesn't mean cops shouldn't carry mace. But the need for it's use has to outweigh danger, which was absolutely not the case in this situation.
This is no where near the same situation. Chemicals used for riots is generally some type of CS gas or equivalent. The reaction that CS causes is far more severe than what you get from pepper spray. Using pepper spary as a dispersal device is similar to throwing a handful of cayene pepper into the air. It's going to make your eyes water and your nose run, it might even sting a little. But the pain it causes is no where near freak out and run mode.
CS on the other hand can make you vomit and burn skin if it gets trapped in your clothes. Comparing the two is like comparing getting shot with a bb gun to getting shot with a m-16.
Like quid already said, this is nowhere near an accurate description of what the effects of pepper spray are. It is not in any sense similar to having cayenne pepper thrown at you, nor are it's effects limited to coughing and watery eyes. But don't take my word for it, take these guys (vis wikipedia):
The European Parliament Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA) published in 1998 “An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control”[5] with extensive information on pepper spray and tear gas. They write:
The effects of pepper spray are far more severe [than tear gas], including temporary blindness which lasts from 15–30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes.
You may be confusing pepper spray and CS gas; pepper spray is not generally speaking deployed aerially (aside from in projectile pellets and things like that.)
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I will say the young men in this situation were being extremely stupid. Even if you cannot hear the officers were clearly telling you to disperse and even if fans and bystanders were telling the officers "no, its okay, let them finish" technically the young men are still in violation of the law and made a threatening gesture towards one of the home-town players, before they all start to shout and become aggressive.
This is the thing people seem to continuously get hung up on in threads like this.
Okay, so a person or people are disobeying a lawful order. This is obviously bad. But, these people aren't being violent and aren't putting people in danger. What should law enforcement's response be in this situation?
There seems to be a large contingent of people whose answer is "they're being dumb, fuck them, give them the baton or the pepper spray or whatever." I don't really know what to say to you except that I don't want to live in a society where people are regularly beaten or subject to chemical agents for the crime of doing something dumb.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I will say the young men in this situation were being extremely stupid. Even if you cannot hear the officers were clearly telling you to disperse and even if fans and bystanders were telling the officers "no, its okay, let them finish" technically the young men are still in violation of the law and made a threatening gesture towards one of the home-town players, before they all start to shout and become aggressive.
This is the thing people seem to continuously get hung up on in threads like this.
Okay, so a person or people are disobeying a lawful order. This is obviously bad. But, these people aren't being violent and aren't putting people in danger. What should law enforcement's response be in this situation?
There seems to be a large contingent of people whose answer is "they're being dumb, fuck them, give them the baton or the pepper spray or whatever." I don't really know what to say to you except that I don't want to live in a society where people are regularly beaten or subject to chemical agents for the crime of doing something dumb.
Blocking an exit is putting people in danger. That's why its illegal. Not to mention they are blocking the exit of the opposing football team from the field. That's a potentially volatile situation.
Sorry Eat It the rest of my post was left off due to the issues I'm having with the forum. The other part I started mentioning that a lot of the reactions depends on what the officer knew about the haka, how threatening he really felt they were, the precedent of fights at the football stadium, and the presence of other cops in the stadium. Some of the other articles make it sound like there was more than two cops there. I was not trying to justify the actions of the guy who jumped the gun some. I am curious on what their policy is on using pepper spray, mace, or TAZERS. At the precinct I worked at, unless there was threat or the actual presence of extreme physical violence, the officer is supposed to announce that they are going to use the pepper spray, mace, or TAZER on the person/people, as in "disperse or I will use pepper spray to get you to move!"
Just from a meta-discussion standpoint, there are only three relevant questions:
1) What is the official continuum of force in Roosevelt, UT? (I can almost guarantee that "soft hands" appears somewhere between "verbal order" and "chemical irritant.")
2) Did the police officers follow that continuum of force? (Honestly, I can't tell from the video.)
3) Should that continuum of force be changed?
Stupid arguments like, "lol, do you think cops should just stand there with their dicks in their hands?" aren't constructive.
And further to this, what would the police have done had pepper spray not been available to them? iE, what response on the continuum of force was appropriate?
I will say the young men in this situation were being extremely stupid. Even if you cannot hear the officers were clearly telling you to disperse and even if fans and bystanders were telling the officers "no, its okay, let them finish" technically the young men are still in violation of the law and made a threatening gesture towards one of the home-town players, before they all start to shout and become aggressive.
This is the thing people seem to continuously get hung up on in threads like this.
Okay, so a person or people are disobeying a lawful order. This is obviously bad. But, these people aren't being violent and aren't putting people in danger. What should law enforcement's response be in this situation?
There seems to be a large contingent of people whose answer is "they're being dumb, fuck them, give them the baton or the pepper spray or whatever." I don't really know what to say to you except that I don't want to live in a society where people are regularly beaten or subject to chemical agents for the crime of doing something dumb.
Blocking an exit is putting people in danger. That's why its illegal. Not to mention they are blocking the exit of the opposing football team from the field. That's a potentially volatile situation.
They got maced because they were committing a crime, disobeyed a lawful order to stop, and were creating a dangerous situation.
The next question should be: would the use of mace on a crowd in an entry-way reduce or increase the risk of harm being done? Are there locations where it may not be appropriate to use a method of crowd dispersion that typically makes the crowd try to run away from it rapidly?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I will say the young men in this situation were being extremely stupid. Even if you cannot hear the officers were clearly telling you to disperse and even if fans and bystanders were telling the officers "no, its okay, let them finish" technically the young men are still in violation of the law and made a threatening gesture towards one of the home-town players, before they all start to shout and become aggressive.
This is the thing people seem to continuously get hung up on in threads like this.
Okay, so a person or people are disobeying a lawful order. This is obviously bad. But, these people aren't being violent and aren't putting people in danger. What should law enforcement's response be in this situation?
There seems to be a large contingent of people whose answer is "they're being dumb, fuck them, give them the baton or the pepper spray or whatever." I don't really know what to say to you except that I don't want to live in a society where people are regularly beaten or subject to chemical agents for the crime of doing something dumb.
Blocking an exit is putting people in danger. That's why its illegal. Not to mention they are blocking the exit of the opposing football team from the field. That's a potentially volatile situation.
I would be more inclined to believe the pepper spray was warranted if the bald officer trying to move the young men was not making progress using only soft shoving. They are visibly retreating before the officer fires the pepper spray. The soft approach was working.
So much this.
Also, I can only assume that the people who think this looked like the beginnings of a brawl have only seen brawls in productions of West Side Story.
Blocking an exit is putting people in danger. That's why its illegal. Not to mention they are blocking the exit of the opposing football team from the field. That's a potentially volatile situation.
They got maced because they were committing a crime, disobeyed a lawful order to stop, and were creating a dangerous situation.
So much wrong here. The team they were blocking was the one they were supporting. The exit lead in doors, not out. There was plenty of room for people to get away from in a freak football fire or whatever it is you think the possible threat could be so not actually dangerous, though given there was no threat, there was no actual danger either. The situation had the potential to be dangerous, but was not. Meaning there was no emergency that required assaulting people. Finally, the situation you're comparing this to was actually dangerous because people were already attacking each other. No one in this situation was being violent except for a cop.
I would be more inclined to believe the pepper spray was warranted if the bald officer trying to move the young men was not making progress using only soft shoving. They are visibly retreating before the officer fires the pepper spray. The soft approach was working.
So much this.
Honestly, this is what it looked like to me, too, but between the shakyblurrycam and all the people saying, "The kids were disobeying a lawful order" I just wasn't sure what I was seeing.
It looked to me like the kids were backing up and making room for the officers. Complying slowly, but still complying.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
And further to this, what would the police have done had pepper spray not been available to them? iE, what response on the continuum of force was appropriate?
Probably hard holds - ie, grabbing somebody and wrestling him to the ground, or handcuffing him. It'll differ by jurisdiction, though.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
So much wrong here. The team they were blocking was the one they were supporting.
I already wrote why we know that's A) true, totally incomplete. We can see them pushing back a home player.
Whether or not they were dumbasses / possibly looking for conflict is a separate issue from if the cops responded with force too quickly. You don't have to simultaneously argue that the cops are assholes AND the dancers are pure as driven snow to make your point.
Also, I can only assume that the people who think this looked like the beginnings of a brawl have only seen brawls in productions of West Side Story.
You're right, fights in high school NEVER start over silly misunderstandings. I'd have to be pretty naive to think that a group of visitors physically blocking a group of home team players could possibly be misconstrued. Thank goodness a hard dude like you is around to straighten us all out about what a Real Brawl looks like.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Okay, but that's not suggested anywhere in the above quote.
Its RIGHT THERE in the above quote; you just parsing it as something else. Which is totally fine, but lets not pretend others arguing with phantasms.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with an officers commands, it's generally not a great idea to challenge that at the time unless you've got some irrefutable proof that you're not breaking the law/posing a danger. Continuing to perform your dance after being told countless times to just make a damn hole (not disperse, not stop dancing but move to the side) was not the appropriate response on the part of young men.
Okay, but that's not suggested anywhere in the above quote.
Its RIGHT THERE in the above quote; you just parsing it as something else. Which is totally fine, but lets not pretend others arguing with phantasms.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with an officers commands, it's generally not a great idea to challenge that at the time unless you've got some irrefutable proof that you're not breaking the law/posing a danger. Continuing to perform your dance after being told countless times to just make a damn hole (not disperse, not stop dancing but move to the side) was not the appropriate response on the part of young men.
No, it's not there. He said that a cop was pushing people out of the way and it was working. He did not suggest the police just do nothing if ignored. And no one has said the people dancing were in the right either.
What I was saying is what Quid was saying. There was no need to escalate if they were following his commands. When the young men begin to back off, they are slowly dispersing. From my experience if people are listening to your commands in that situation, you let them start to back down of their own accord. You do not escalate until they give you a sign it is appropriate, which was not shown in the above video. The officer escalated when an approach was working. Granted, this is a completely different state than the one I worked in (and I was working in a jail), but I do not think the reactions would be too different. Once again though, I am not saying the kids were anywhere near the right, just that the pepper spray does not look to be warranted.
So much wrong here. The team they were blocking was the one they were supporting.
I already wrote why we know that's A) true, totally incomplete. We can see them pushing back a home player.
Whether or not they were dumbasses / possibly looking for conflict is a separate issue from if the cops responded with force too quickly. You don't have to simultaneously argue that the cops are assholes AND the dancers are pure as driven snow to make your point.
Also, I can only assume that the people who think this looked like the beginnings of a brawl have only seen brawls in productions of West Side Story.
You're right, fights in high school NEVER start over silly misunderstandings. I'd have to be pretty naive to think that a group of visitors physically blocking a group of home team players could possibly be misconstrued. Thank goodness a hard dude like you is around to straighten us all out about what a Real Brawl looks like.
Not even high school students think that a group of people lining up and performing coordinated moves are about to brawl. Especially not those moves. I am curious what high school you went to that this is how brawls started...
And no, when people see coordinated activity, such as a dance, taking place they might be annoyed but do not think "zomg they are gonna totally kill us!". Had the Haka dancers just stood there and prevented people from passing then you might have a point.
The police simply could have waited for them to finish their dance and then arrest them if they felt they needed to. Nobody gets harmed in this outcome. As it was, the performers and bystanders were harmed.
This means there is no reason whatsoever for it to be illegal to block exits. Crowds blocking exits are totally cool, so long as nothing bad happens. If they block exits and no one does anything to stop them, and the crowds start pushing in, and then there is trampling, or something happens in another part of the arena and a stampede occurs... oh well ok then they shouldn't have been blocking the exits. But we can't really say they were doing anything wrong until after the stampede and trampling deaths occur.
Do you watch South Park? Do you understand the satire of Captain Hindsight? Blocking exits in a crowded facility is bad. It doesn't matter if this one time it seemed like everyone was being cool about it. It's bad dangerous. Trust me, if the cops ignored it, and then kids got hurt in a crowd incident, there would be blood on these cops' hands. I'm guessing their main function at this type of event is precisely to do what they did here, avoid large-scale confrontations, riots, stampedes, etc. Sure, a megaphone or some more pushing in between the requests and the mace might have been even better, but the margin there is so small as to be insignificant compared to the possibilities of an aggressive crowd blocking the exits at a sporting event.
The police simply could have waited for them to finish their dance and then arrest them if they felt they needed to. Nobody gets harmed in this outcome. As it was, the performers and bystanders were harmed.
This means there is no reason whatsoever for it to be illegal to block exits.
Actually, things can be illegal without being immediately dangerous. So not true.
If they block exits and no one does anything to stop them, and the crowds start pushing in, and then there is trampling, or something happens in another part of the arena and a stampede occurs... oh well ok then they shouldn't have been blocking the exits. But we can't really say they were doing anything wrong until after the stampede and trampling deaths occur.
This is true. Therefore they should try to move them rather than spray chemical irritants that generally confuse and frighten people.
Blocking exits in a crowded facility is bad.
A football field is not a crowded facility.
I'm guessing their main function at this type of event is precisely to do what they did here, avoid large-scale confrontations, riots, stampedes, etc. Sure, a megaphone or some more pushing in between the requests and the mace might have been even better, but the margin there is so small as to be insignificant compared to the possibilities of an aggressive crowd blocking the exits at a sporting event.
More pushing? Only one cop had even just started to try and push one of the dancers before another cop decided attacking them was the better plan.
A football field is not a crowded facility? o_O I guess dying from asphyxiation is a bit unlikely, but stadiums usually get pretty crowded in my experience.
Also, those cops were idiots.
Edit: And finally, I fucking swear I opened this thread thinking it's a Dancing with the stars thread...
A football field is not a crowded facility? o_O I guess dying from asphyxiation is a bit unlikely, but stadiums usually get pretty crowded in my experience.
The video gives a quick shot of part of the field that was definitely not crowded. Certainly less so than in to the facility the cop spraying mace wanted people to run blindly in to.
A football field is not a crowded facility? o_O I guess dying from asphyxiation is a bit unlikely, but stadiums usually get pretty crowded in my experience.
The video gives a quick shot of part of the field that was definitely not crowded. Certainly less so than in to the facility the cop spraying mace wanted people to run blindly in to.
It must be too much to ask the police to approach these things on a situational basis. If an exit is blocked, then in theory people could be in immediate peril so the offenders must be stopped in utmost haste.
A football field is not a crowded facility? o_O I guess dying from asphyxiation is a bit unlikely, but stadiums usually get pretty crowded in my experience.
The video gives a quick shot of part of the field that was definitely not crowded. Certainly less so than in to the facility the cop spraying mace wanted people to run blindly in to.
This is a HIGH SCHOOL football field, right?
Like... the dinky little things that tend to be almost 100% open and why didn't the people just go the fuck -around- the Haka dancers?
A football field is not a crowded facility? o_O I guess dying from asphyxiation is a bit unlikely, but stadiums usually get pretty crowded in my experience.
The video gives a quick shot of part of the field that was definitely not crowded. Certainly less so than in to the facility the cop spraying mace wanted people to run blindly in to.
This is a HIGH SCHOOL football field, right?
Like... the dinky little things that tend to be almost 100% open and why didn't the people just go the fuck -around- the Haka dancers?
After reading these threads, I often wonder what situations ARE pertinent to involving pepper spray?
Do you actually read them? It's been pointed out, repeatedly, that it should be used when there's an actual danger. Not because abloo abloo they didn't listen to me and I'm too scared to get close.
In the actual police guidelines and rules, pepper spray is usually only allowable to subdue subjects resisting arrest. A police officer was censured for using pepper spray on protestors in New York over the and this rule was cited specifically.
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
In the actual police guidelines and rules, pepper spray is usually only allowable to subdue subjects resisting arrest. A police officer was censured for using pepper spray on protestors in New York over the and this rule was cited specifically.
The specific rules for it vary with every location. But Feral's posted several times now that up next should have come open handed, gentle pushing, something you can see one of the cops start to do before the guy behind him decides to spray a bunch of people.
I have been pepper-sprayed. It is not fun. In fact I would put forth the theory that being pepper sprayed is the antithesis of fun.
It was a police defense elective course in college and they asked for some volunteers and my friends and I worked each other up to it. They lined three of us up and nailed us.
They don't tell you about all the other shit that happens. Your nostrils and entire sinus cavity decide its time to release every ounce of mucus you can theoretically produce. You start crying. And every breath feels like someone is shoving acid down your lungs.
The guys pushing back the football player trying to leave was pretty much all I needed to see. If specific police guidelines were violated here, and I believe that's possible, too, then there should be some sort of appropriate punishment. But otherwise I see idiots aggressively blocking an exit, physically assaulting a player trying to leave, ignoring police, risking a very dangerous crowd situation, and getting dealt with quickly and with minimal harm.
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Isn't the argument in support of the cops that the dancers were causing a pileup at the exit that was becoming dangerous? That doesn't seem like the best time to make a crowd suddenly feel the intense urge to be anywhere else.
Wrong. Pepper spray is significantly more severe in both pain and debilitating effects than tear gas. It does not just "maybe sting a little".
I will say the young men in this situation were being extremely stupid. Even if you cannot hear the officers were clearly telling you to disperse and even if fans and bystanders were telling the officers "no, its okay, let them finish" technically the young men are still in violation of the law and made a threatening gesture towards one of the home-town players, before they all start to shout and become aggressive.
It's not "Obey my command in fractional increments until you're obeying my full command." It's "Make a hole." The cops did not say "Disperese. . ." so there was nothing stopping them from just turning perpendicular and allowing traffic to move through them. The spray may have been overkill, but really anything that didn't end with the cops saying "Ahh fuck it, you guys find another way out. . ." would have been an over reaction I think.
Okay, but that's not suggested anywhere in the above quote. Smart cop decided to just try pushing them away and was making progress. Dumb cop decided fuck it, and jumped straight to attacking people with no concern for bystanders or their safety.
I swear to God people keep coming in here and arguing against invisible opponents.
That's nice. You're still wrong.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Like quid already said, this is nowhere near an accurate description of what the effects of pepper spray are. It is not in any sense similar to having cayenne pepper thrown at you, nor are it's effects limited to coughing and watery eyes. But don't take my word for it, take these guys (vis wikipedia):
You may be confusing pepper spray and CS gas; pepper spray is not generally speaking deployed aerially (aside from in projectile pellets and things like that.)
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
This is the thing people seem to continuously get hung up on in threads like this.
Okay, so a person or people are disobeying a lawful order. This is obviously bad. But, these people aren't being violent and aren't putting people in danger. What should law enforcement's response be in this situation?
There seems to be a large contingent of people whose answer is "they're being dumb, fuck them, give them the baton or the pepper spray or whatever." I don't really know what to say to you except that I don't want to live in a society where people are regularly beaten or subject to chemical agents for the crime of doing something dumb.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Blocking an exit is putting people in danger. That's why its illegal. Not to mention they are blocking the exit of the opposing football team from the field. That's a potentially volatile situation.
2 weeks ago there was a massive brawl between 2 HS football team that left a coach in the hospital:
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-10-18/justice/justice_georgia-football-fight_1_warren-county-investigation-high-school-football?_s=PM:JUSTICE
They got maced because they were committing a crime, disobeyed a lawful order to stop, and were creating a dangerous situation.
And further to this, what would the police have done had pepper spray not been available to them? iE, what response on the continuum of force was appropriate?
The next question should be: would the use of mace on a crowd in an entry-way reduce or increase the risk of harm being done? Are there locations where it may not be appropriate to use a method of crowd dispersion that typically makes the crowd try to run away from it rapidly?
Can you tell the difference between a crime where violence was present, and one where it is not?
Also, I can only assume that the people who think this looked like the beginnings of a brawl have only seen brawls in productions of West Side Story.
So much wrong here. The team they were blocking was the one they were supporting. The exit lead in doors, not out. There was plenty of room for people to get away from in a freak football fire or whatever it is you think the possible threat could be so not actually dangerous, though given there was no threat, there was no actual danger either. The situation had the potential to be dangerous, but was not. Meaning there was no emergency that required assaulting people. Finally, the situation you're comparing this to was actually dangerous because people were already attacking each other. No one in this situation was being violent except for a cop.
Honestly, this is what it looked like to me, too, but between the shakyblurrycam and all the people saying, "The kids were disobeying a lawful order" I just wasn't sure what I was seeing.
It looked to me like the kids were backing up and making room for the officers. Complying slowly, but still complying.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Probably hard holds - ie, grabbing somebody and wrestling him to the ground, or handcuffing him. It'll differ by jurisdiction, though.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I already wrote why we know that's A) true,
Whether or not they were dumbasses / possibly looking for conflict is a separate issue from if the cops responded with force too quickly. You don't have to simultaneously argue that the cops are assholes AND the dancers are pure as driven snow to make your point.
You're right, fights in high school NEVER start over silly misunderstandings. I'd have to be pretty naive to think that a group of visitors physically blocking a group of home team players could possibly be misconstrued. Thank goodness a hard dude like you is around to straighten us all out about what a Real Brawl looks like.
Its RIGHT THERE in the above quote; you just parsing it as something else. Which is totally fine, but lets not pretend others arguing with phantasms.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with an officers commands, it's generally not a great idea to challenge that at the time unless you've got some irrefutable proof that you're not breaking the law/posing a danger. Continuing to perform your dance after being told countless times to just make a damn hole (not disperse, not stop dancing but move to the side) was not the appropriate response on the part of young men.
No, it's not there. He said that a cop was pushing people out of the way and it was working. He did not suggest the police just do nothing if ignored. And no one has said the people dancing were in the right either.
Not even high school students think that a group of people lining up and performing coordinated moves are about to brawl. Especially not those moves. I am curious what high school you went to that this is how brawls started...
And no, when people see coordinated activity, such as a dance, taking place they might be annoyed but do not think "zomg they are gonna totally kill us!". Had the Haka dancers just stood there and prevented people from passing then you might have a point.
This means there is no reason whatsoever for it to be illegal to block exits. Crowds blocking exits are totally cool, so long as nothing bad happens. If they block exits and no one does anything to stop them, and the crowds start pushing in, and then there is trampling, or something happens in another part of the arena and a stampede occurs... oh well ok then they shouldn't have been blocking the exits. But we can't really say they were doing anything wrong until after the stampede and trampling deaths occur.
Do you watch South Park? Do you understand the satire of Captain Hindsight? Blocking exits in a crowded facility is bad. It doesn't matter if this one time it seemed like everyone was being cool about it. It's bad dangerous. Trust me, if the cops ignored it, and then kids got hurt in a crowd incident, there would be blood on these cops' hands. I'm guessing their main function at this type of event is precisely to do what they did here, avoid large-scale confrontations, riots, stampedes, etc. Sure, a megaphone or some more pushing in between the requests and the mace might have been even better, but the margin there is so small as to be insignificant compared to the possibilities of an aggressive crowd blocking the exits at a sporting event.
This is true. Therefore they should try to move them rather than spray chemical irritants that generally confuse and frighten people.
A football field is not a crowded facility.
More pushing? Only one cop had even just started to try and push one of the dancers before another cop decided attacking them was the better plan.
Also, those cops were idiots.
Edit: And finally, I fucking swear I opened this thread thinking it's a Dancing with the stars thread...
The video gives a quick shot of part of the field that was definitely not crowded. Certainly less so than in to the facility the cop spraying mace wanted people to run blindly in to.
This is a HIGH SCHOOL football field, right?
Like... the dinky little things that tend to be almost 100% open and why didn't the people just go the fuck -around- the Haka dancers?
cause they were blocking the exit!
Do you actually read them? It's been pointed out, repeatedly, that it should be used when there's an actual danger. Not because abloo abloo they didn't listen to me and I'm too scared to get close.
The specific rules for it vary with every location. But Feral's posted several times now that up next should have come open handed, gentle pushing, something you can see one of the cops start to do before the guy behind him decides to spray a bunch of people.
It's nice to see some actual guidelines posted, rather than just blindly belittling someone for asking a reasonable question.
It was a police defense elective course in college and they asked for some volunteers and my friends and I worked each other up to it. They lined three of us up and nailed us.
They don't tell you about all the other shit that happens. Your nostrils and entire sinus cavity decide its time to release every ounce of mucus you can theoretically produce. You start crying. And every breath feels like someone is shoving acid down your lungs.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)