Help me choose a third language. Japanese, Chinese, or Korean? (Decided. Korean.)

Esh

So, one of my two majors in college being Linguistics, I have to take two terms of a non-indo European language. I'm thinking either Chinese, Japanese, or Korean. I don't have any particular leaning culturally towards any of them really. What are some pros and cons of the different languages? Also, "usefulness" is not something I particularly care about.

Ah, and the other two languages I speak are English (natively) and French (conversationally).

MagicToaster

If you feel the same towards all three languages, I want to ask you Esh, where do your strenghts as a linguist lie? Is it in grammar or pronounciation? What kind of challenge are you looking for?

I've had extensive experience with Japanese, and limited ones with Mandarin Chinese.

I found Japanese to have an easy phonology, and robust but easy to follow grammar. Mandarin on the other hand had very simple grammar, but pronounciation was about as dificult as it gets. As for Korean, I don't have any academical experience with it, but it seems very close to Japanese in pronounciation and grammar.

If you want a grammar challenge, Japanese will provide it untill you start seeing patterns in verb conjugations and sentence syntax. If you want a phonological challenge, Mandarin Chinese will make you cry.

Molybdenum

I am not a linguist, but I am an exchange student in Korea.

the dudes here (which is to say, Koreans) all seem to think Japanese and Korean have pretty similar grammar structures and construction. From my japanese 101 experience, I'd agree, for what that's worth. If you don't care in the slightest about "usefulness" in the sense of being able to consume the vast array of media Japan puts out, Korean is probably slightly easier as a comprehensive package due to the lack of kanji.
Hangul (the korean alphabet) is one of the most elegantly simple systems on the planet; if you're interested in writing systems as part of linguistics you owe it to yourself to check out the history behind it.

It seems strange to say you aren't concerned about "usefulness," since in theory if you don't care how you can use a language it doesn't matter if you can speak it or not.

garroad_ran

Imagine me saying exactly what MagicToaster just said, except not nearly as eloquently. That would have been my post.

Librarian

Korean and Japanese are both easier to learn than Chinese because of the really big difference in pronounciation and how syllables have a different meaning depending on how you pronounce them. 5 different pronounciations for each syllable and you got a range in meaning from "horse" to "mother".
I took Chinese classes for 1 semester and I really did not have the will to keep on, I couldn't pronounce properly and I was also unable to hear what pronounciation was used most of the time.

I would say that both Korea and Japan also have the bonus of having a lot more entertainment/pop culture to get into and to immerse yourself into the language.

Esh

Molybdenum wrote:

I am not a linguist, but I am an exchange student in Korea.

the dudes here (which is to say, Koreans) all seem to think Japanese and Korean have pretty similar grammar structures and construction. From my japanese 101 experience, I'd agree, for what that's worth. If you don't care in the slightest about "usefulness" in the sense of being able to consume the vast array of media Japan puts out, Korean is probably slightly easier as a comprehensive package due to the lack of kanji.
Hangul (the korean alphabet) is one of the most elegantly simple systems on the planet; if you're interested in writing systems as part of linguistics you owe it to yourself to check out the history behind it.

It seems strange to say you aren't concerned about "usefulness," since in theory if you don't care how you can use a language it doesn't matter if you can speak it or not.

I meant usefulness more in a, "Oh, this will enable you to have a leg up in the global job market blah blah blah." kinda of usefulness. Any of the three is useful to me as a linguist.

I was kind of leaning towards Korean as well. I had read as well that the writing system is very well put together (a recent phenomenon?) and something the country really prides itself on. It also has some Chinese characters sprinkled into it as well, no? A Korean girl in one my classes here in France was saying that learning one makes it easier to move to the other.

tynic

If your ear is good then mandarin pronounciation isn't actually terribly difficult. The grammar is straightforward, also. However, becoming fluently literate is something of a challenge. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with japanese or korean, so can't give a comparative evaluation.

Hypatia

One bonus point of Chinese is that if you learn Chinese, you will probably be able to read enough of Japanese to get the general gist of what's going on.

You can generally go the other way around after you've learned enough kanji, but it's more built in to Chinese because you have to learn those characters from the get go.

I'm not sure that either of the two has any connection like that with Korean.

Molybdenum

Esh wrote:

Molybdenum wrote:

I am not a linguist, but I am an exchange student in Korea.

the dudes here (which is to say, Koreans) all seem to think Japanese and Korean have pretty similar grammar structures and construction. From my japanese 101 experience, I'd agree, for what that's worth. If you don't care in the slightest about "usefulness" in the sense of being able to consume the vast array of media Japan puts out, Korean is probably slightly easier as a comprehensive package due to the lack of kanji.
Hangul (the korean alphabet) is one of the most elegantly simple systems on the planet; if you're interested in writing systems as part of linguistics you owe it to yourself to check out the history behind it.

It seems strange to say you aren't concerned about "usefulness," since in theory if you don't care how you can use a language it doesn't matter if you can speak it or not.

I meant usefulness more in a, "Oh, this will enable you to have a leg up in the global job market blah blah blah." kinda of usefulness. Any of the three is useful to me as a linguist.

I was kind of leaning towards Korean as well. I had read as well that the writing system is very well put together (a recent phenomenon?) and something the country really prides itself on. It also has some Chinese characters sprinkled into it as well, no? A Korean girl in one my classes here in France was saying that learning one makes it easier to move to the other.

That's what I gather, yep. There are some chinese characters in use- they call them Hanja, I think - but I don't know if I've ever seen them used. It seems to be an old-people kind of thing, or maybe a "very specific commodity highly recognized by this character" sort of thing. Basically if you get a receipt or read a book in Korea it will be all Hangul and latin numerals. I've actually had a really hard time picking up the numbers since they only use them verbally.

Koreans are quite proud of their language system; google.kr was dressed up for Hangul Day a while back.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2011/10/09/hangul-day-on-google/

ceres

Japanese is a pretty amazing language. It has relatively simple pronunciation rules and strict grammar, yet remains complex enough to allow for a rich variety of personal styles when spoken. I find the written language to be much simpler than Chinese or Korean personally, but that's going to depend on where your strengths lie.

I am obviously quite biased because Japanese is my second language, although I'm pretty rusty so I'm down to conversational from proficient.

bowen

I would say Japanese and Korean before Chinese. Culturally they're, in my opinion, way awesomer than Chinese. Though Hong Kong is pretty sweet.

Pft, take all 3.

kime

I'd put a vote towards Chinese, just because I think it'd be more of a different challenge for you to learn than you'd have had with French. And that means it'll be fun!

Korean is cool because of the writing system, and as a linguist you probably should check that out sometime even if you don't go into a deep study of the language.

And Japanese is cool too, of course. That's probably my personal next language goal :P.

You aren't looking for "usefulness," but what is your criteria for deciding?

Straygatsby

I had a pretty good time taking to 2 semesters of Japanese in college. Pronunciation was doable, even by my fat slobbery Pennsylvanian tongue, and while the multiple alphabets/ideograms seemed daunting at first, you pretty rapidly pick up how hiragana, katakana, and kanji all interlock to form a pretty logical grammar/thought process (I may have murdered those spellings - it's been like 13 years).

Of course as someone training as a linguist, you really won't have much of an issue at least surveying any of them, so I'd go with whatever you find most culturally interesting.

Alternatively, just go Chinese, so you can be ready for when they rule the entire planet. =o

Esh

bowen wrote:

I would say Japanese and Korean before Chinese. Culturally they're, in my opinion, way awesomer than Chinese. Though Hong Kong is pretty sweet.

Pft, take all 3.

Those language classes are 5 days a week (as opposed to 3 for the rest). I'd lose my mind.

ceres wrote:

Japanese is a pretty amazing language. It has relatively simple pronunciation rules and strict grammar, yet remains complex enough to allow for a rich variety of personal styles when spoken. I find the written language to be much simpler than Chinese or Korean personally, but that's going to depend on where your strengths lie.

I am obviously quite biased because Japanese is my second language, although I'm pretty rusty so I'm down to conversational from proficient.

I'd actually heard that Korean had the simplest writing system of them all. I was leaning towards Japanese, but honestly, I have a weird feeling what a lot of the kids in those classes are going to be like and I might want to strangle them.

kime

Esh wrote: »

I'd actually heard that Korean had the simplest writing system of them all. I was leaning towards Japanese, but honestly, I have a weird feeling what a lot of the kids in those classes are going to be like and I might want to strangle them.

From everything I've heard and learned, Korean should have the simplest writing system, yeah. It's essentially phonetic, just with character-looking symbols instead of alphabetical letters.

ceres

That's why I said it sort of depends on your strengths in that area. I had a pretty easy time picking up a lot of characters in Japanese very quickly, but when I tried to learn how to put the syllables together on paper in Korean, I really struggled, and I had a very hard time reading it.

Hahnsoo1

Korean writing is simpler than English, relatively speaking. It fits well on a keyboard, having 14 main consonants and 10 main vowels (there's a whole slew of compound vowels and consonants, but those are written by just doubling up a vowel or consonant symbol). It was developed in the 15th century, and it's way simpler than Japanese. Anecdotally, I taught English-speaking friends the consonants and vowels, and later the compound vowels, in about a week, and they could read words by the end of the week (with some help from a letter reference). I used to write English messages in code using Korean in grade school.

My name (on the forums) is Korean. It would look like 한 수: ㅎ= H, ㅏ= ah, ㄴ= n, ㅅ= s, ㅜ = oo.

Even if you don't end up formally studying Korean as a language, you should check out the development of their writing system. I'm convinced that some alien from outer space came in and developed it out of whole cloth, due to its elegance, simplicity, and versatility. Many of the modern words in Korean (like Television and Tank) are simply English words that are written in Korean syllables.

Esh

Hahnsoo1 wrote:

Korean writing is simpler than English, relatively speaking. It fits well on a keyboard, having 14 main consonants and 10 main vowels (there's a whole slew of compound vowels and consonants, but those are written by just doubling up a vowel or consonant symbol). It was developed in the 15th century, and it's way simpler than Japanese. Anecdotally, I taught English-speaking friends the consonants and vowels, and later the compound vowels, in about a week, and they could read words by the end of the week (with some help from a letter reference). I used to write English messages in code using Korean in grade school.

My name (on the forums) is Korean. It would look like 한 수: ㅎ= H, ㅏ= ah, ㄴ= n, ㅅ= s, ㅜ = oo.

Even if you don't end up formally studying Korean as a language, you should check out the development of their writing system. I'm convinced that some alien from outer space came in and developed it out of whole cloth, due to its elegance, simplicity, and versatility. Many of the modern words in Korean (like Television and Tank) are simply English words that are written in Korean syllables.

That's really pretty. How does it pile them together like that? What does it do for longer words?

ahava

that, the korean that Hahnsoo just put up, seems very similar to how hebrew works. With a set consonant characters and set ways to write/include vowels.

I wonder how hard it would be to take the basics of hebrew that i have and try to learn korean.


Honestly, Esh. If you don't care too much about 'global markets' and things like that, I would say (not knowing much of anything about the 3 languages) to learn Korean. if it's as simplistic and elegant as everybody says, than that's a bonus. On top of being very pretty to listen to.

Althusser

The stacking and everything are all very simply explained at this website: http://langintro.com/kintro/first.htm

You could learn to read it phonetically in like a day if there's nothing on TV.

ceres

lonelyahava wrote:

that, the korean that Hahnsoo just put up, seems very similar to how hebrew works. With a set consonant characters and set ways to write/include vowels.

I wonder how hard it would be to take the basics of hebrew that i have and try to learn korean.


Honestly, Esh. If you don't care too much about 'global markets' and things like that, I would say (not knowing much of anything about the 3 languages) to learn Korean. if it's as simplistic and elegant as everybody says, than that's a bonus. On top of being very pretty to listen to.

Having a good bit of Hebrew reading under my belt, I would not say they are similar.

Aioua

Well, thanks thread, Hangul is really neat! Makes me want to learn Korean just so I have an excuse to use it.

Esh

Korean it is. Thanks for the input everyone.