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Actually, DS9 had a fucking fantastic pilot. Probably one of the best sci-fi pilots i've seen in years. The only weak-point I could think of was
Sisko's wife.
Her acting was atrociously wooden.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
The Cardassians, even at that particular low point in their economy, still had starships. Warp-capable ones at that. Power supply should not have been an issue; not compared to the systematic destruction of your industrial base anyway.
That is, power plants do you no good if there's no factory to power.
The Cardassians, even at that particular low point in their economy, still had starships. Warp-capable ones at that. Power supply should not have been an issue; not compared to the systematic destruction of your industrial base anyway.
That is, power plants do you no good if there's no factory to power.
Right, even if everything was totally decimated, they could just hook up the mobile antimatter reactor of one of their warships to an industrial replicator and build all kinds of stuff
As for solar cells, you would have to replicate a large number of solar cells and a battery which would then have to charge up to replicate a new bunch of solar cells and a battery... it's also assuming it takes the same power to make a solar cell as a cup of soup (depending on the base material)
Honestly this is way overthinking things: It is established in the plot of DS9 pretty well why the colonists are pissed off, and that there aren't an unlimited number of fabricators to go around and that tiny box replicators can't build you a society and manufacturing a much bigger industrial replicator is something you can't just do unless you already have a gigantic infrastructure. The Cardassians aren't capable of manufacturing industrial replicators and they're capable of building starships.
override367 on
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
The Cardassians, even at that particular low point in their economy, still had starships. Warp-capable ones at that. Power supply should not have been an issue; not compared to the systematic destruction of your industrial base anyway.
That is, power plants do you no good if there's no factory to power.
Right, even if everything was totally decimated, they could just hook up the mobile antimatter reactor of one of their warships to an industrial replicator and build all kinds of stuff
Starting with some parts for a more permanent ground side power supply, if necessary.
I wonder what happened to those replicators after the Dominion got their greasy pseudopods on Cardassia?
Who else is hoping we don't get a retread of Wrath of Khan in the next movie (or really, ever again). If the Enterprise hadn't been in that exact space at that exact time, Khan and his Hitler Youth buddies would still be plowing around space.
I'm hoping we get some fallout from Nero. Like, political fallout maybe. Imagine, a rogue Romulan (future or no) has destroyed a Federation planet and attacked the capital, I'm imaging someone's banging the war drum out there. Not to mention the hints of trouble with the Klingons.
I'd like to see the Klingons and Romulans at odds with each other. Maybe the Enterprise gets caught up in it or the Federation in general. You know? The plus side I see in this is we could get a visit on that old promise of "In another time, we could have been friends."
So did I. Excellent news. I never really bought into the rumours that they were going to remake WoK, but it's still a relief to see it confirmed.
And I agree with AManFromEarth, that exploring the consequences of Nero's attack would make a very interesting sequel movie. And there are consequences aplenty, what with one of the two most important planets in the Federation being destroyed, the Vulcan people becoming an endangered species, and both Starfleet and the Klingon fleets being blown to bits.
The Romulans prey on weaknesses in their enemies, so them making a move is the logical next step, but I expect that it won't happen since the last two movies have been about Romulans. The Klingons are in no position to be a threat, which rules out the main two enemies in TOS. They could have new internal threats: rogue pirates trying to take advantage of a destabilized Federation, or the Andorians trying to get the upper hand?
Arguably the Federation's losses weren't that bad. The waxed fleet was (relatively) small and Vulcan was always methodical and logical and plodding (in comparison to the expansionism being evidenced in the movie's "we're recruiting and fleet-building like a motherfucker"). While the loss of the "planet of the scientists" is expensive and far-reaching, it is the ind of thing that hurts the federation farther down the road, rather than the very beginning as Kirk begins his conquest (nudge nudge wink wink) of the galaxy.
Another point that sprung to my mind the instant Leonard Nimoy showed up was that except for some really weak-ass and ridiculous use of the Prime Directive or some guys from Temporal Investigations showing up with a black-bag squad there is no excuse for New Vulcan to become less than an untouchable Fortress World that no enemy can hope to breach. Even if he stays fairly hands-off on the federation's growth and development (which is unlikely since he already gave them super-transporters) the federation is going to be pretty well-off against major threats.
That said there are a great many things that can be done. There are plenty of ways that Nero and crew could have "leaked" tech to people (by accident or on purpose) during the 25 years he skulked around in dark regions of space, slowly going mad. If you take Enterprise as canon the Andorians were probably partially kept in check by the Vulcans (who may or may not be weak but are certainly busy). The Klingons and the Romulans might go to war causing all kinds of entertaining problems with refugees, weapons trade, etc.
And in mention of pirates, the Orions have potential to be interesting. While I'm pretty sure Cadet Gaila won't be appearing (she's likely dead and was probably just put in as a "Kirk nails the green chick" joke) they're still established in TOS and DS9 canon to be a source of pirates, slave-traders, weapons-dealers, and all-around ne'er-do-wells. Set against the backdrop of a Romulan/Klingon war, you could have emboldened and empowered Orions reaping benefits from "harvesting the sorrows of war". (i.e. scavenging battlefields, selling weapons, raiding refugee camps and relief convoys, doing the odd spot of mercenary work, and playing both sides to make the war that much worse.) If you decided to bother with Gaila you could throw in some pathos where Kirk feels guilty for using and abusing the lovely green lady or have her be involved, as villain, victim, or unfortunate relation.
Honestly this is way overthinking things: It is established in the plot of DS9 pretty well why the colonists are pissed off, and that there aren't an unlimited number of fabricators to go around and that tiny box replicators can't build you a society and manufacturing a much bigger industrial replicator is something you can't just do unless you already have a gigantic infrastructure. The Cardassians aren't capable of manufacturing industrial replicators and they're capable of building starships.
Right, but contextually there's no logical reason for things to be this way except for the sake of convenience in the writing. Podunk colonies in the ST universe make no sense, unless they're hundreds of years old, isolated places like the previously mentioned tng episode plot.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Who else is hoping we don't get a retread of Wrath of Khan in the next movie (or really, ever again). If the Enterprise hadn't been in that exact space at that exact time, Khan and his Hitler Youth buddies would still be plowing around space.
I'm hoping we get some fallout from Nero. Like, political fallout maybe. Imagine, a rogue Romulan (future or no) has destroyed a Federation planet and attacked the capital, I'm imaging someone's banging the war drum out there. Not to mention the hints of trouble with the Klingons.
I'd like to see the Klingons and Romulans at odds with each other. Maybe the Enterprise gets caught up in it or the Federation in general. You know? The plus side I see in this is we could get a visit on that old promise of "In another time, we could have been friends."
So did I. Excellent news. I never really bought into the rumours that they were going to remake WoK, but it's still a relief to see it confirmed.
And I agree with AManFromEarth, that exploring the consequences of Nero's attack would make a very interesting sequel movie. And there are consequences aplenty, what with one of the two most important planets in the Federation being destroyed, the Vulcan people becoming an endangered species, and both Starfleet and the Klingon fleets being blown to bits.
The Romulans prey on weaknesses in their enemies, so them making a move is the logical next step, but I expect that it won't happen since the last two movies have been about Romulans. The Klingons are in no position to be a threat, which rules out the main two enemies in TOS. They could have new internal threats: rogue pirates trying to take advantage of a destabilized Federation, or the Andorians trying to get the upper hand?
Arguably the Federation's losses weren't that bad. The waxed fleet was (relatively) small and Vulcan was always methodical and logical and plodding (in comparison to the expansionism being evidenced in the movie's "we're recruiting and fleet-building like a motherfucker"). While the loss of the "planet of the scientists" is expensive and far-reaching, it is the ind of thing that hurts the federation farther down the road, rather than the very beginning as Kirk begins his conquest (nudge nudge wink wink) of the galaxy.
Another point that sprung to my mind the instant Leonard Nimoy showed up was that except for some really weak-ass and ridiculous use of the Prime Directive or some guys from Temporal Investigations showing up with a black-bag squad there is no excuse for New Vulcan to become less than an untouchable Fortress World that no enemy can hope to breach. Even if he stays fairly hands-off on the federation's growth and development (which is unlikely since he already gave them super-transporters) the federation is going to be pretty well-off against major threats.
That said there are a great many things that can be done. There are plenty of ways that Nero and crew could have "leaked" tech to people (by accident or on purpose) during the 25 years he skulked around in dark regions of space, slowly going mad. If you take Enterprise as canon the Andorians were probably partially kept in check by the Vulcans (who may or may not be weak but are certainly busy). The Klingons and the Romulans might go to war causing all kinds of entertaining problems with refugees, weapons trade, etc.
And in mention of pirates, the Orions have potential to be interesting. While I'm pretty sure Cadet Gaila won't be appearing (she's likely dead and was probably just put in as a "Kirk nails the green chick" joke) they're still established in TOS and DS9 canon to be a source of pirates, slave-traders, weapons-dealers, and all-around ne'er-do-wells. Set against the backdrop of a Romulan/Klingon war, you could have emboldened and empowered Orions reaping benefits from "harvesting the sorrows of war". (i.e. scavenging battlefields, selling weapons, raiding refugee camps and relief convoys, doing the odd spot of mercenary work, and playing both sides to make the war that much worse.) If you decided to bother with Gaila you could throw in some pathos where Kirk feels guilty for using and abusing the lovely green lady or have her be involved, as villain, victim, or unfortunate relation.
I think there's plenty of fertile ground out there for Kirk to plow in this new franchise.
yeah in tng picard is kind of selective about giving replicators to people. oh you are a federation citizen that turns out to be a god-like creature? Here have a replicator. oh you are a bajorian starving ex-slave of the cardassians...here's some pox infested blankets. Mr. Worf would you be so kind as to give the starving bajorans some blankets?
They turned terrorist because Cardassians were literally murdering their friends, relatives, and children in violation of the treaty and the Federation stuck its fingers in its ears and whistled
ahh, looked it up on memory alpha, didn't realize the demilitarized zone included planets inside of it.
Seems the federation could have saved a lot of trouble by firmly saying 'these planets are Cardassian, these planets are ours, the demilitarized zone does not contain any planets' and then forced the colonists off.
The Federation made a strategic decision that the lives of the colonists were less important than appeasing the Cardassians.
Not their lives, since the Federation was perfectly willing to relocate them.
Some colonists land <<< potential death and destruction from a war with Cardassia (even a war the Federation wins).
Its the kind of deal a mature and responsible state makes - in the Treaty of 1818 Britain ceded a small colony to an expansionist slaveholding power to avoid a potentially damaging future war, and provided funds for the relocation of those residents who would be vulnerable under the new regime. Just because American history is devoid of enemies with the ability or inclination to actually hurt it and force these types of compromises, and its never had to enact such a trade doesn't make it a foolish decision.
Frontier colonists are always such self-entitled and self-centred fucking arseholes, see the Texas Revolution and Rhodesia, romanticizing them is unhelpful.
I always thought the Indians in that one TNG episode were pretty dumb. I mean, really... they're determined to stay and try to fight off the Cardassians, even though they have no real weapons? Fine, let em stay and fight and get orbitally bombarded by Galor cruisers.
Reminded me of that other TNG episode "The Ensigns of Command" where another bunch of dumb colonists wanted to stay and fight the Sheliak. The Federation coming to evacuate and resettle you on... some paradise world like Ceti Alpha V is just about the best possible thing that could happen, but no... they just had to be stubborn recalcitrant fools. At least until the end, when Data showed them what was what.
So it seems like nearly every episode of Star Trek is up on Instant. I've only ever seen the new movie, but I've been thinking about watching the TV series lately. Should I?
And which one should I start with? I assume the original series.
So it seems like nearly every episode of Star Trek is up on Instant. I've only ever seen the new movie, but I've been thinking about watching the TV series lately. Should I?
And which one should I start with? I assume the original series.
The original series has aged pretty badly. I'm not sure that's a terrific place to start. There are some quality episodes like "Balance of Terror" and "The Doomsday Machine" but then a lot of bad ones like... they'll be off saving Spock's brain or trying to retake the ship from space hippies or somesuch and yeah... it's not great. The quality is spotty, let's say. It's like stepping through a minefield, you'll be safe one episode, then blown to bits on the next. Very inconsistent.
I'd recommend starting with TNG. But then the first two seasons of that show are horrible as well. Hmmm.
Id start with either The Original Series or The Next Generation and Id end with Deep Space Nine. Voyager is okay, but skippable. Enterprise, while not as bad as everyone makes it out to be, can be skipped without incident.
EDIT: One thing TOS has going for it is the surprising number of attractive ladies on the show. Maybe TNG has them too (I know there are definitely some) but theyre hidden by Federation jumpsuits (or should I say future burkas dundundun).
They turned terrorist because Cardassians were literally murdering their friends, relatives, and children in violation of the treaty and the Federation stuck its fingers in its ears and whistled
ahh, looked it up on memory alpha, didn't realize the demilitarized zone included planets inside of it.
Seems the federation could have saved a lot of trouble by firmly saying 'these planets are Cardassian, these planets are ours, the demilitarized zone does not contain any planets' and then forced the colonists off.
The Federation made a strategic decision that the lives of the colonists were less important than appeasing the Cardassians.
Not their lives, since the Federation was perfectly willing to relocate them.
Some colonists land <<< potential death and destruction from a war with Cardassia (even a war the Federation wins).
Its the kind of deal a mature and responsible state makes - in the Treaty of 1818 Britain ceded a small colony to an expansionist slaveholding power to avoid a potentially damaging future war, and provided funds for the relocation of those residents who would be vulnerable under the new regime. Just because American history is devoid of enemies with the ability or inclination to actually hurt it and force these types of compromises, and its never had to enact such a trade doesn't make it a foolish decision.
Frontier colonists are always such self-entitled and self-centred fucking arseholes, see the Texas Revolution and Rhodesia, romanticizing them is unhelpful.
I'm talking about after the establishment of the DMZ when the Cardassians started attacking the colonies covertly and smuggling arms to their own colonies in clear violation of the treaty, the Federation took zero effort to call them on it. Heck that one Federation captain went rogue over a similar issue in TNG, clearly a lot of "what the fuck Starfleet why are you being such pussies?" amongst a lot of people
Basically it was obvious (painfully obvious) throughout TNG and in DS9 that Central Command was planning to start invading shit again as soon as they rebuilt themselves, and Starfleet kept this WE MUST NOT JEOPARDIZE THE TREATY attitude no matter how many times the Cardassians violated it - and this given that the Cardassians are by far the weaker of the two powers. If say, Spain was periodically launching missiles at America (forget that they can't), and the president was like "BUT THE TREATY!", people would probably be pretty pissed.
The US certainly took their time with Georgia and would have definitely not retaliated by starting a war. Plus these are Human colonists so the chances of them not leaving after countless warnings and offerings of assistance with relocation are almost certain.
These are the kind of people that refuse to leave if tar monsters threaten to vaporize them from orbit.
Yeah... those Cardassians were definitely portrayed as way too weak to pose any sort of serious threat. It was baffling how desperate the Federation was to keep the peace/appease. In "The Wounded," they manage to fire on an unshielded Enterprise and Picard and company basically chuckle merrily to themselves as the Galor class's shots bounce harmlessly off of its shields. Then they decide to go and give the Phoenix's prefix code to the Cardassians, dismantling its shields. But the Phoenix says, "Ain't no thang," and turns around and vaporizes both the warship and the cargo ship in a few moments. This is an incredibly weak opponent.
Then, in "Chain of Command," we see that their warships are all hiding in a nebula or something. Riker and La Forge go out in their little dinky shuttle and plant mines all around the ships, and mind you, these mines are small enough to fit into the cramped rear compartment of a shuttlecraft. Way smaller then a photon torpedo. And these mines are apparently sufficiently powerful to annihilate every single warship in that nebula.
We also eventually get to see that Galor class warships are incredibly vulnerable to getting punked out by little two man fightercraft used by the Maquis. And in "The Chase," it's shown that the main phaser banks of Galors aren't strong enough to penetrate the structural integrity fields of starships. Not their main deflector shields, but the structural integrity fields! The fields that aren't even meant to defend against naval weapons. Wow.
The Cardassians were basically portrayed as the Star Trek equivalent of a really dinky little third world country, I felt. It had all the classic hallmarks... their society was even governed by this military junta that had overthrown the civilian government.
I'm not saying the colonists are rational - Sisko is right when he tells Eddington that the Maquis are to blame for the suffering the colonists are enduring by giving them false hope.
I get the reasoning, it's the absolute fringes of Federation territory and by the time they can mobilize anything, weeks have passed and fifty thousand civilians are dead (which was the entirety of the border wars that Obrien was a part of). Pre Dominion War, the Federation's heavy hitters like Nebulas and Galaxies are spread all over the goddamn place. Their policy of having no strictly military craft is a direct example of their ideology fucking them in a practical sense.
The problem they hope to avoid is similar to the situation in North Korea, where the other side has no real chance but they know they can push your buttons because in a conflict they'd be able to inflict a large number of civilian casualties before you could stop them. The other side to that is that you can't just give them everything. If they're shooting at you, you have to shoot back.
I'm not saying the colonists are rational - Sisko is right when he tells Eddington that the Maquis are to blame for the suffering the colonists are enduring by giving them false hope.
I get the reasoning, it's the absolute fringes of Federation territory and by the time they can mobilize anything, weeks have passed and fifty thousand civilians are dead (which was the entirety of the border wars that Obrien was a part of). Pre Dominion War, the Federation's heavy hitters like Nebulas and Galaxies are spread all over the goddamn place. Their policy of having no strictly military craft is a direct example of their ideology fucking them in a practical sense.
The problem they hope to avoid is similar to the situation in North Korea, where the other side has no real chance but they know they can push your buttons because in a conflict they'd be able to inflict a large number of civilian casualties before you could stop them. The other side to that is that you can't just give them everything. If they're shooting at you, you have to shoot back.
Ya know, I just don't know about the time estimate there. Sometimes it seems like Federation space is huge and it would take weeks or months to get from one side of the Federation to the other. Certainly Voyager makes a good case that it takes friggin forever to get across a quadrant. But then you've got other instances where it doesn't seem like it'd take that long at all. "The Best of Both Worlds" has them starting from the outer fringe of the Federation and getting back to Earth in Sector 001 in... maybe a day and a half? Something like that. And then in the movie "First Contact" they warp from the Romulan Neutral Zone back to Sector 001 in probably a few hours or so. The battle starts with them at the border and it's still going strong by the time they arrive.
So I dunno if they'd really be weeks away. They've never really done a concrete job of establishing the scale of the Federation.
The Romulan Neutral Zone is not very far from earth, or rather on the first map I found, DS9 is five or six times as far away as Romulan space.
I think the problem you're running into is speed: a Galaxy class ship is ten or more times faster than the average federation starship, which are themselves considerably faster than average non-starfleet ships. It takes Cassidy Yates' ship days to get where the Defiant can go in a few hours, and the Defiant is pretty slow for a Dominion era starship.
Here's the map, now since space is 3d this isn't really helpful, but lets just take it at face value - the Federation space on the other side of the DMZ is really, really far from the Federation core. This is the reason Cardassia has any leverage on the Federation at all.
Werent the colonists in the demilitarized zone in an area the Federation told them not to be in in the first place?
I mean, if the government tells me not to go to sector X because its dangerous and the government cant/wont/has no interest in helping/fixing problems over there I just wouldnt go there. But these settlers decided to move there and then when the Cardassians are all "oh by the way this is ours now" and the Federation is all "okay" I dont know how upset you could be about the Federation not supporting your actions.
The Cardassians were basically portrayed as the Star Trek equivalent of a really dinky little third world country, I felt. It had all the classic hallmarks... their society was even governed by this military junta that had overthrown the civilian government.
Indeed, the Cardassians were a shitty little power, much like Iraq was facing down an American carrier group. But taking decisive military action didn't turn out particularly well for the coalition did it now? Dealing with Cardassia would create a whole clusterfuck of problems, and the investment of their military resources leave the Federation exposed to the various real powers of the Alpha Quadrant, and there's always the threat of the Borg lingering over everyone's head.
Sometimes you have got to grin and bare the non-existential problem if your other issues are bigger. The Maquis agreed to stay under Cardassian jurisdiction - morons of that caliber really should be evacuated to a nice safe world where there are no sharp objects to hurt themselves on.
Ultimately of course its the writers fault for deciding the Cardassians are weak enough for the Maquis to effectively engage with whilst also being strong enough to make the Federation agree to a stupid treaty, or realise that 21st century technology alone kinda does away with the requirement for hardscrable agricultural frontiers, much less a post-scarcity environment.
BTW, The Wounded's one of my favorite TNG episodes. It sorta tries to lead you to believe it'll end in a Wrath of Khan-style battle between the two Federation starships, I mean after all, the Phoenix even looks like a TNG-era Reliant, with the nacelles mounted on the underside. But no, they don't go for the big bombastic battle scene, which makes sense because 1) it's only a 44 minute episode and 2) they probably wouldn't have the budget to pull it off successfully. But no, the ending they do go with is emotionally satisfying and works perfectly.
Unfortunately, it continued the trend of non-Enterprise Starfleet captains or admirals being either crazy or evil or both.
man I hope they make a Star Trek where we get to see the flawed, dark underbelly of spaceships, cause everyone knows we don't have spaceships in real life and it's not realistic
So long as spaceships in Star Trek function in accordance with established in-universe rules, it doesn't matter that they're not realistic based on our current science.
On the other hand, when human beings stop functioning like actual human beings, it's tough to suspend one's disbelief.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
The maquis weren't strong enough to engage the Cardassians, they were terrorists. They'd hit unarmed targets and gtfo
The warships they did take out were lured into traps, no different than a tank vs an IED
You're really trying to compare a starship manned by hundreds, with sophisticated deflector shields and sensors, to a tank? Really? I mean, you can make that analogy, but I find it a bit of stretch.
That sorta thing really takes me out of the universe, actually. It just doesn't work for me. A perfect example off the top of my head is "Force of Nature," that silly environmentalism episode where the two rogue scientists jury-rig a beacon or probe or something to instantly stun and disable a Galaxy class starship. There's a really good match for your tank and IED analogy, actually. That shit just broke my disbelief.
What I'm wondering is why terrorism isn't super effective once FTL speed is common. What is stopping someone from going warp speed and crashing straight into Starfleet Academy, a space station, a starship, or anything else with a load of antimatter?
They even had that one Voyager episode with the warp equivalent of an ICBM.
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
What I'm wondering is why terrorism isn't super effective once FTL speed is common. What is stopping someone from going warp speed and crashing straight into Starfleet Academy, a space station, or anything else with a load of antimatter?
Because writers don't know/don't want to deal with those physics issues? Forget antimatter - according to memory alpha a single TNG shuttlepod can reach quarter c with impulse power. When that hits something it will impart 2.5x10^19 Joules of energy - two and a half thousand times the energy output of the largest nuclear weapon ever made.
But 'starship'-missiles dropping out of warp and reducing a planets surface to lava milliseconds later doesn't make for good human interest stories .
The maquis weren't strong enough to engage the Cardassians, they were terrorists. They'd hit unarmed targets and gtfo
The warships they did take out were lured into traps, no different than a tank vs an IED
You're really trying to compare a starship manned by hundreds, with sophisticated deflector shields and sensors, to a tank? Really? I mean, you can make that analogy, but I find it a bit of stretch.
That sorta thing really takes me out of the universe, actually. It just doesn't work for me. A perfect example off the top of my head is "Force of Nature," that silly environmentalism episode where the two rogue scientists jury-rig a beacon or probe or something to instantly stun and disable a Galaxy class starship. There's a really good match for your tank and IED analogy, actually. That shit just broke my disbelief.
Would you prefer a comparison to the bombing of the USS Cole? A couple of dudes in a dingy blew a giant hole in the ship. I mean, theyre terrorists, they hit targets of opportunity sometimes they destroy things and sometimes they only damage them, but theyre annoying and relentless. Theyre like flies. Terrorist flies. In space. Terrorist space-flies.
man I hope they make a Star Trek where we get to see the flawed, dark underbelly of spaceships, cause everyone knows we don't have spaceships in real life and it's not realistic
So long as spaceships in Star Trek function in accordance with established in-universe rules, it doesn't matter that they're not realistic based on our current science.
On the other hand, when human beings stop functioning like actual human beings, it's tough to suspend one's disbelief.
Where does that happen, and when it does, when is it not just a symptom of bad writing? There are plenty of shows where people don't act like human beings, but I don't see a clamor to represent the "dark underside" of Arli$$. The Trek I've seen has people who are still motivated by the things that motivate real people - sex, ambition and so forth - they just tend to make slightly better decisions on average than one of us might.
The show explicitly takes place in a world where not only have education and psychology advanced by three hundred years, but telepathy is a real thing that actually happens. Personally, I think that if anything it sells short the degree of change we're likely to see in that timeframe as we really start to get a handle on the human brain and questions of consciousness, but questions of speculative science aside, there's a point past which you either buy in to a story's fundamental assumptions or you don't. There is nothing to be gained by watching a soap opera or a Western and complaining that it has too many crazy twists or too many horses.
Lastly, I find something deeply juvenile about the value system that automatically equates cynicism and pessimism with worldly sophistication. If something's "dark," it's better, man! That's why The Crow is the lofty pinnacle towards which ten thousand years of human history have been building.
What I'm wondering is why terrorism isn't super effective once FTL speed is common. What is stopping someone from going warp speed and crashing straight into Starfleet Academy, a space station, or anything else with a load of antimatter?
Because writers don't know/don't want to deal with those physics issues? Forget antimatter - according to memory alpha a single TNG shuttlepod can reach quarter c with impulse power. When that hits something it will impart 2.5x10^19 Joules of energy - two and a half thousand times the energy output of the largest nuclear weapon ever made.
But 'starship'-missiles dropping out of warp and reducing a planets surface to lava milliseconds later doesn't make for good human interest stories .
What I'm wondering is why terrorism isn't super effective once FTL speed is common. What is stopping someone from going warp speed and crashing straight into Starfleet Academy, a space station, or anything else with a load of antimatter?
Because writers don't know/don't want to deal with those physics issues? Forget antimatter - according to memory alpha a single TNG shuttlepod can reach quarter c with impulse power. When that hits something it will impart 2.5x10^19 Joules of energy - two and a half thousand times the energy output of the largest nuclear weapon ever made.
But 'starship'-missiles dropping out of warp and reducing a planets surface to lava milliseconds later doesn't make for good human interest stories .
Something something gravity wells? I think?
Then come out of warp wherever its appropriate, doesn't change the fact you're going so fast anything you hit will be in for an unpleasant few lifetimes, and destroying your missile will do nothing but turn it from a rifle shot into a shotgun blast.
The Maquis situation is more complicated then some people realise. The Federation and the Cardassians where fighting a war over said colonies. Not a full scale war like the Dominion war, but a bloody affair none the less. In the episode the Cardassians are introduced they mention the war started over 20 years ago with the massacre at Setlik III. Thats 20 years of low-intensity war with hundreds if not thousands of people dying on either side. (Known veterans of this war was O'Brian, Janeway and Picard). The Federation was sending ships and people to die for the colonies close to Cardassian space.
Then the Federation signs a peace treaty with the Cardassians, creating the DMZ. Now here is where it gets interesting. The Cardassians where introduced in the middle of S4(The Wounded, excellent episode) and they mention that the treaty was signed one year earlier. In Trek season are like years, so the treaty would have been signed in S3. What happened at the end of S3? Best of Both Worlds. In addition several episodes in S2-3 focus on Starfleet getting ready for a Borg attack.
This points to the Federation trying to withdraw its forces from minor conflicts to focus on the Borg threat. The Cardassians being ruthless bastards probably used this desire to get consessions from the Federation. Not only that, but for the rest of TNGs run the Borg are considered the number one threat to the federation(with good cause). Starfleet can't afford to get involved in another war after seeing what one Borg Cube can do at Wolf 359.
So Starfleet tries to calm things down in the DMZ, while the Cardassians are exploiting their weakness. The Maquis blame the Federation for giving up on them, while in reality the Federation is focusing on the real threat.
Thats my fanwank theory anyways.
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I think there's nothing unrealistic about how the show's humans typically acted. When they weren't at war, they lived in a highly advanced, post-scarcity society. Most human problems go away when you eliminate all poverty and virtually all illness.
However, the people in the Federation hadn't evolved to some higher state. They are the same as us, just a lot richer. But when the safety blanket was threatened, humans were more than willing to take the gloves off. Furthermore, the shows are mostly about members of Star Fleet, who are the standard-bearers of Federation ideology and espoused values.
That's always been my disconnect with the Rodenberry philosophy- Star Trek is touted as some sort of blueprint for the future, but it's not tough to create a better future if you have magic technology that literally builds something out of nothing.
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Actually, DS9 had a fucking fantastic pilot. Probably one of the best sci-fi pilots i've seen in years. The only weak-point I could think of was
Her acting was atrociously wooden.
That is, power plants do you no good if there's no factory to power.
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Right, even if everything was totally decimated, they could just hook up the mobile antimatter reactor of one of their warships to an industrial replicator and build all kinds of stuff
As for solar cells, you would have to replicate a large number of solar cells and a battery which would then have to charge up to replicate a new bunch of solar cells and a battery... it's also assuming it takes the same power to make a solar cell as a cup of soup (depending on the base material)
Honestly this is way overthinking things: It is established in the plot of DS9 pretty well why the colonists are pissed off, and that there aren't an unlimited number of fabricators to go around and that tiny box replicators can't build you a society and manufacturing a much bigger industrial replicator is something you can't just do unless you already have a gigantic infrastructure. The Cardassians aren't capable of manufacturing industrial replicators and they're capable of building starships.
Starting with some parts for a more permanent ground side power supply, if necessary.
I wonder what happened to those replicators after the Dominion got their greasy pseudopods on Cardassia?
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Arguably the Federation's losses weren't that bad. The waxed fleet was (relatively) small and Vulcan was always methodical and logical and plodding (in comparison to the expansionism being evidenced in the movie's "we're recruiting and fleet-building like a motherfucker"). While the loss of the "planet of the scientists" is expensive and far-reaching, it is the ind of thing that hurts the federation farther down the road, rather than the very beginning as Kirk begins his conquest (nudge nudge wink wink) of the galaxy.
Another point that sprung to my mind the instant Leonard Nimoy showed up was that except for some really weak-ass and ridiculous use of the Prime Directive or some guys from Temporal Investigations showing up with a black-bag squad there is no excuse for New Vulcan to become less than an untouchable Fortress World that no enemy can hope to breach. Even if he stays fairly hands-off on the federation's growth and development (which is unlikely since he already gave them super-transporters) the federation is going to be pretty well-off against major threats.
That said there are a great many things that can be done. There are plenty of ways that Nero and crew could have "leaked" tech to people (by accident or on purpose) during the 25 years he skulked around in dark regions of space, slowly going mad. If you take Enterprise as canon the Andorians were probably partially kept in check by the Vulcans (who may or may not be weak but are certainly busy). The Klingons and the Romulans might go to war causing all kinds of entertaining problems with refugees, weapons trade, etc.
And in mention of pirates, the Orions have potential to be interesting. While I'm pretty sure Cadet Gaila won't be appearing (she's likely dead and was probably just put in as a "Kirk nails the green chick" joke) they're still established in TOS and DS9 canon to be a source of pirates, slave-traders, weapons-dealers, and all-around ne'er-do-wells. Set against the backdrop of a Romulan/Klingon war, you could have emboldened and empowered Orions reaping benefits from "harvesting the sorrows of war". (i.e. scavenging battlefields, selling weapons, raiding refugee camps and relief convoys, doing the odd spot of mercenary work, and playing both sides to make the war that much worse.) If you decided to bother with Gaila you could throw in some pathos where Kirk feels guilty for using and abusing the lovely green lady or have her be involved, as villain, victim, or unfortunate relation.
I think there's plenty of fertile ground out there for Kirk to plow in this new franchise.
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Not their lives, since the Federation was perfectly willing to relocate them.
Some colonists land <<< potential death and destruction from a war with Cardassia (even a war the Federation wins).
Its the kind of deal a mature and responsible state makes - in the Treaty of 1818 Britain ceded a small colony to an expansionist slaveholding power to avoid a potentially damaging future war, and provided funds for the relocation of those residents who would be vulnerable under the new regime. Just because American history is devoid of enemies with the ability or inclination to actually hurt it and force these types of compromises, and its never had to enact such a trade doesn't make it a foolish decision.
Frontier colonists are always such self-entitled and self-centred fucking arseholes, see the Texas Revolution and Rhodesia, romanticizing them is unhelpful.
Reminded me of that other TNG episode "The Ensigns of Command" where another bunch of dumb colonists wanted to stay and fight the Sheliak. The Federation coming to evacuate and resettle you on... some paradise world like Ceti Alpha V is just about the best possible thing that could happen, but no... they just had to be stubborn recalcitrant fools. At least until the end, when Data showed them what was what.
And which one should I start with? I assume the original series.
The original series has aged pretty badly. I'm not sure that's a terrific place to start. There are some quality episodes like "Balance of Terror" and "The Doomsday Machine" but then a lot of bad ones like... they'll be off saving Spock's brain or trying to retake the ship from space hippies or somesuch and yeah... it's not great. The quality is spotty, let's say. It's like stepping through a minefield, you'll be safe one episode, then blown to bits on the next. Very inconsistent.
I'd recommend starting with TNG. But then the first two seasons of that show are horrible as well. Hmmm.
EDIT: One thing TOS has going for it is the surprising number of attractive ladies on the show. Maybe TNG has them too (I know there are definitely some) but theyre hidden by Federation jumpsuits (or should I say future burkas dundundun).
I'm talking about after the establishment of the DMZ when the Cardassians started attacking the colonies covertly and smuggling arms to their own colonies in clear violation of the treaty, the Federation took zero effort to call them on it. Heck that one Federation captain went rogue over a similar issue in TNG, clearly a lot of "what the fuck Starfleet why are you being such pussies?" amongst a lot of people
Basically it was obvious (painfully obvious) throughout TNG and in DS9 that Central Command was planning to start invading shit again as soon as they rebuilt themselves, and Starfleet kept this WE MUST NOT JEOPARDIZE THE TREATY attitude no matter how many times the Cardassians violated it - and this given that the Cardassians are by far the weaker of the two powers. If say, Spain was periodically launching missiles at America (forget that they can't), and the president was like "BUT THE TREATY!", people would probably be pretty pissed.
Depends.
The US certainly took their time with Georgia and would have definitely not retaliated by starting a war. Plus these are Human colonists so the chances of them not leaving after countless warnings and offerings of assistance with relocation are almost certain.
These are the kind of people that refuse to leave if tar monsters threaten to vaporize them from orbit.
Then, in "Chain of Command," we see that their warships are all hiding in a nebula or something. Riker and La Forge go out in their little dinky shuttle and plant mines all around the ships, and mind you, these mines are small enough to fit into the cramped rear compartment of a shuttlecraft. Way smaller then a photon torpedo. And these mines are apparently sufficiently powerful to annihilate every single warship in that nebula.
We also eventually get to see that Galor class warships are incredibly vulnerable to getting punked out by little two man fightercraft used by the Maquis. And in "The Chase," it's shown that the main phaser banks of Galors aren't strong enough to penetrate the structural integrity fields of starships. Not their main deflector shields, but the structural integrity fields! The fields that aren't even meant to defend against naval weapons. Wow.
The Cardassians were basically portrayed as the Star Trek equivalent of a really dinky little third world country, I felt. It had all the classic hallmarks... their society was even governed by this military junta that had overthrown the civilian government.
I get the reasoning, it's the absolute fringes of Federation territory and by the time they can mobilize anything, weeks have passed and fifty thousand civilians are dead (which was the entirety of the border wars that Obrien was a part of). Pre Dominion War, the Federation's heavy hitters like Nebulas and Galaxies are spread all over the goddamn place. Their policy of having no strictly military craft is a direct example of their ideology fucking them in a practical sense.
The problem they hope to avoid is similar to the situation in North Korea, where the other side has no real chance but they know they can push your buttons because in a conflict they'd be able to inflict a large number of civilian casualties before you could stop them. The other side to that is that you can't just give them everything. If they're shooting at you, you have to shoot back.
Ya know, I just don't know about the time estimate there. Sometimes it seems like Federation space is huge and it would take weeks or months to get from one side of the Federation to the other. Certainly Voyager makes a good case that it takes friggin forever to get across a quadrant. But then you've got other instances where it doesn't seem like it'd take that long at all. "The Best of Both Worlds" has them starting from the outer fringe of the Federation and getting back to Earth in Sector 001 in... maybe a day and a half? Something like that. And then in the movie "First Contact" they warp from the Romulan Neutral Zone back to Sector 001 in probably a few hours or so. The battle starts with them at the border and it's still going strong by the time they arrive.
So I dunno if they'd really be weeks away. They've never really done a concrete job of establishing the scale of the Federation.
The Romulan Neutral Zone is not very far from earth, or rather on the first map I found, DS9 is five or six times as far away as Romulan space.
I think the problem you're running into is speed: a Galaxy class ship is ten or more times faster than the average federation starship, which are themselves considerably faster than average non-starfleet ships. It takes Cassidy Yates' ship days to get where the Defiant can go in a few hours, and the Defiant is pretty slow for a Dominion era starship.
Here's the map, now since space is 3d this isn't really helpful, but lets just take it at face value - the Federation space on the other side of the DMZ is really, really far from the Federation core. This is the reason Cardassia has any leverage on the Federation at all.
I mean, if the government tells me not to go to sector X because its dangerous and the government cant/wont/has no interest in helping/fixing problems over there I just wouldnt go there. But these settlers decided to move there and then when the Cardassians are all "oh by the way this is ours now" and the Federation is all "okay" I dont know how upset you could be about the Federation not supporting your actions.
Yeah I'm glad I'm not a fanboy with too much time on my hands
*arguing Federation politics in regards to Cardassian peace accords*
Seriously though I'm working out like a decade of pent up Star Trek nerdage here, since I know not a single human being who's a star trek fan
Indeed, the Cardassians were a shitty little power, much like Iraq was facing down an American carrier group. But taking decisive military action didn't turn out particularly well for the coalition did it now? Dealing with Cardassia would create a whole clusterfuck of problems, and the investment of their military resources leave the Federation exposed to the various real powers of the Alpha Quadrant, and there's always the threat of the Borg lingering over everyone's head.
Sometimes you have got to grin and bare the non-existential problem if your other issues are bigger. The Maquis agreed to stay under Cardassian jurisdiction - morons of that caliber really should be evacuated to a nice safe world where there are no sharp objects to hurt themselves on.
Ultimately of course its the writers fault for deciding the Cardassians are weak enough for the Maquis to effectively engage with whilst also being strong enough to make the Federation agree to a stupid treaty, or realise that 21st century technology alone kinda does away with the requirement for hardscrable agricultural frontiers, much less a post-scarcity environment.
BTW, The Wounded's one of my favorite TNG episodes. It sorta tries to lead you to believe it'll end in a Wrath of Khan-style battle between the two Federation starships, I mean after all, the Phoenix even looks like a TNG-era Reliant, with the nacelles mounted on the underside. But no, they don't go for the big bombastic battle scene, which makes sense because 1) it's only a 44 minute episode and 2) they probably wouldn't have the budget to pull it off successfully. But no, the ending they do go with is emotionally satisfying and works perfectly.
Unfortunately, it continued the trend of non-Enterprise Starfleet captains or admirals being either crazy or evil or both.
The warships they did take out were lured into traps, no different than a tank vs an IED
On the other hand, when human beings stop functioning like actual human beings, it's tough to suspend one's disbelief.
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You're really trying to compare a starship manned by hundreds, with sophisticated deflector shields and sensors, to a tank? Really? I mean, you can make that analogy, but I find it a bit of stretch.
That sorta thing really takes me out of the universe, actually. It just doesn't work for me. A perfect example off the top of my head is "Force of Nature," that silly environmentalism episode where the two rogue scientists jury-rig a beacon or probe or something to instantly stun and disable a Galaxy class starship. There's a really good match for your tank and IED analogy, actually. That shit just broke my disbelief.
They even had that one Voyager episode with the warp equivalent of an ICBM.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Because writers don't know/don't want to deal with those physics issues? Forget antimatter - according to memory alpha a single TNG shuttlepod can reach quarter c with impulse power. When that hits something it will impart 2.5x10^19 Joules of energy - two and a half thousand times the energy output of the largest nuclear weapon ever made.
But 'starship'-missiles dropping out of warp and reducing a planets surface to lava milliseconds later doesn't make for good human interest stories
Would you prefer a comparison to the bombing of the USS Cole? A couple of dudes in a dingy blew a giant hole in the ship. I mean, theyre terrorists, they hit targets of opportunity sometimes they destroy things and sometimes they only damage them, but theyre annoying and relentless. Theyre like flies. Terrorist flies. In space. Terrorist space-flies.
Where does that happen, and when it does, when is it not just a symptom of bad writing? There are plenty of shows where people don't act like human beings, but I don't see a clamor to represent the "dark underside" of Arli$$. The Trek I've seen has people who are still motivated by the things that motivate real people - sex, ambition and so forth - they just tend to make slightly better decisions on average than one of us might.
The show explicitly takes place in a world where not only have education and psychology advanced by three hundred years, but telepathy is a real thing that actually happens. Personally, I think that if anything it sells short the degree of change we're likely to see in that timeframe as we really start to get a handle on the human brain and questions of consciousness, but questions of speculative science aside, there's a point past which you either buy in to a story's fundamental assumptions or you don't. There is nothing to be gained by watching a soap opera or a Western and complaining that it has too many crazy twists or too many horses.
Lastly, I find something deeply juvenile about the value system that automatically equates cynicism and pessimism with worldly sophistication. If something's "dark," it's better, man! That's why The Crow is the lofty pinnacle towards which ten thousand years of human history have been building.
Something something gravity wells? I think?
Then come out of warp wherever its appropriate, doesn't change the fact you're going so fast anything you hit will be in for an unpleasant few lifetimes, and destroying your missile will do nothing but turn it from a rifle shot into a shotgun blast.
Then the Federation signs a peace treaty with the Cardassians, creating the DMZ. Now here is where it gets interesting. The Cardassians where introduced in the middle of S4(The Wounded, excellent episode) and they mention that the treaty was signed one year earlier. In Trek season are like years, so the treaty would have been signed in S3. What happened at the end of S3? Best of Both Worlds. In addition several episodes in S2-3 focus on Starfleet getting ready for a Borg attack.
This points to the Federation trying to withdraw its forces from minor conflicts to focus on the Borg threat. The Cardassians being ruthless bastards probably used this desire to get consessions from the Federation. Not only that, but for the rest of TNGs run the Borg are considered the number one threat to the federation(with good cause). Starfleet can't afford to get involved in another war after seeing what one Borg Cube can do at Wolf 359.
So Starfleet tries to calm things down in the DMZ, while the Cardassians are exploiting their weakness. The Maquis blame the Federation for giving up on them, while in reality the Federation is focusing on the real threat.
Thats my fanwank theory anyways.
However, the people in the Federation hadn't evolved to some higher state. They are the same as us, just a lot richer. But when the safety blanket was threatened, humans were more than willing to take the gloves off. Furthermore, the shows are mostly about members of Star Fleet, who are the standard-bearers of Federation ideology and espoused values.
That's always been my disconnect with the Rodenberry philosophy- Star Trek is touted as some sort of blueprint for the future, but it's not tough to create a better future if you have magic technology that literally builds something out of nothing.
Rigorous Scholarship