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Law School Advice
Actinguy1
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Greetings super friends!
I'm seriously considering law school, and looking for advice on this subject.
A bit about me:
I'm 28, graduating this week with my undergrad in Communications from Penn State. My GPA is 3.8, and every professor would be willing to write me a recommendation.
I'm a military veteran, which means that I'm using the post-9/11 GI Bill. I "believe" this means that the first three semesters of my law school tuition, etc, will be all paid for, and that I'll receive a paycheck for about 1600 each month during that time as well ("housing allowance"). That's how it was for undergrad, anyway. I have to check on law school. Regardless, after those first three semesters, I'll be going out of pocket.
I work 12 hours a week right now in an office where I can set my own hours, provided that I do them between Monday-Friday, 8 AM - 4 PM. I'd like to continue doing that if possible, but not essential.
I'd like to continue as a full-time law student through the summer semesters, graduating in two years instead of three, but I've heard conflicting reports on whether this is actually allowed.
I'm married to a nurse. She doesn't make a ton of money of course, but there is that additional source of income. No kids.
I need to stay in the Pittsburgh area, which I believe limits me to Pitt or Duquesne law schools.
This website http://www.top-law-schools.com/university-of-pittsburgh-law.html lists the median first year salary of a Pitt grad going into the private sector at 95k. A high school classmate of mine who is now a 3L student at Pitt Law says that number is more like 50k.
Finally, websites say you usually need to take your LSAT by December to begin law school in the fall. I'm late to that party, but there are LSATs in February, and Pitt accepts applications until March, so would I have the LSAT scores in time?
Thanks for any and all advice you can provide about law school! Most of what I "know" comes from John Grisham novels, so I'm looking for a more realistic view. ;c)
tl;dr: Advice about applying/being in law school?
I'm seriously considering law school, and looking for advice on this subject.
A bit about me:
I'm 28, graduating this week with my undergrad in Communications from Penn State. My GPA is 3.8, and every professor would be willing to write me a recommendation.
I'm a military veteran, which means that I'm using the post-9/11 GI Bill. I "believe" this means that the first three semesters of my law school tuition, etc, will be all paid for, and that I'll receive a paycheck for about 1600 each month during that time as well ("housing allowance"). That's how it was for undergrad, anyway. I have to check on law school. Regardless, after those first three semesters, I'll be going out of pocket.
I work 12 hours a week right now in an office where I can set my own hours, provided that I do them between Monday-Friday, 8 AM - 4 PM. I'd like to continue doing that if possible, but not essential.
I'd like to continue as a full-time law student through the summer semesters, graduating in two years instead of three, but I've heard conflicting reports on whether this is actually allowed.
I'm married to a nurse. She doesn't make a ton of money of course, but there is that additional source of income. No kids.
I need to stay in the Pittsburgh area, which I believe limits me to Pitt or Duquesne law schools.
This website http://www.top-law-schools.com/university-of-pittsburgh-law.html lists the median first year salary of a Pitt grad going into the private sector at 95k. A high school classmate of mine who is now a 3L student at Pitt Law says that number is more like 50k.
Finally, websites say you usually need to take your LSAT by December to begin law school in the fall. I'm late to that party, but there are LSATs in February, and Pitt accepts applications until March, so would I have the LSAT scores in time?
Thanks for any and all advice you can provide about law school! Most of what I "know" comes from John Grisham novels, so I'm looking for a more realistic view. ;c)
tl;dr: Advice about applying/being in law school?
Actinguy1 on
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So I would definitely try to see if you can get a good assessment of the current situation before committing. Not wanting to be the wet blanket or anything, but obviously the most important issue at stake is whether going to law school at all is actually going to give you a good return on your investment, and the impressions and evidence I've seen seem to indicate that it won't.
What do you want to do as a lawyer any way?
Before you decide to go to law school, though, you really need to be sure that you want to be a lawyer. Being a lawyer is tedious, boring, stressful, and difficult. Do you like reading horrendously complicated shit, and writing equally horrendously complicating shit? Would you count your perspicuity and erudition with respect to the written word ipso facto as the chief defining factor that it would make sense to utilize for the sole purpose of delimiting your professional bailiwick for the remainder of your existence? Did that previous sentence make sense? Do you have any reason for wanting to be a lawyer other than the size of the paychecks?
If you answered "yes" to all of those questions, it still doesn't matter because there aren't any jobs, but take a look at some lawyer income charts:
And this is for people that GOT JOBS. Most people are WAY ON THE LEFT with ZERO DOLLARS. In fact, it's the people who reported the jobs they got, which means a lot of the people with the $30-50k per year jobs (the huge hump on the left) were probably ashamed and didn't report it, whereas all the people who ended up in fancy law firms on the right totally reported their salary. Which hump do you think you'll be in? If you answered "the one on the right where the big money is!" then you didn't go to Pitt or Duquesne because people who go there end up in the left hump. The people in the right hump went to Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, UC Berkeley, Georgetown, Duke, Stanford, etc.
So in sum, you won't get a job, if you do get a job you won't earn much, no matter what job you get you probably won't like it, but you won't get the job in the first place so it doesn't matter how much the job sucks or how little you earn.
I seriously considered law school after getting my undergraduate degree, and the overwhelming advice I got was, "Only go to law school if you love the practice of law." Not the theory, not the potential to make $$$$, but the actual, everyday practice of the discipline.
Edit: Of course, I know very well from personal experience that it's hard to really know until you try it, too. I know that's not very helpful, but that's just what it is.
All the preceding advice is worth noting, but you only have one life to live so if you really want to be a lawyer go for it and work your ass off in law school.
But you probably won't be able to apply for fall 2012 as generally the December date is the last one that schools will consider, although you might be able to squeak in. I recommend taking the LSAT in the summer of 2012 and applying next cycle. You will have much more time to study for the LSAT and to prepare your application (Professors are not the most punctual of people and personal statements are more work than they first appear), and to consider whether you really want to go to Law School.
Basically these. Don't go to law school just as something to do, and the way the market is now, definitely don't go to a law school that won't give you a recognizable name on your degree. That means top 10 to be comfortable, top 20 if you're planning on working your ass off in school and making law review.
Don't go to law school.
Don't go to law school.
DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL.
You really should only go to law school if you don't have to take out loans, you can get in to a T14 school, and you can graduate first in your class. There are no jobs in the legal field. You will be stuck with hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans that you can't pay back because you won't have a job.
Seriously.
Don't go to law school.
e. Also, regional law schools will net you a much worse return on investment than a ranked school will. You'll still be fucked for a job after you graduate from a ranked school but at least your school's name with have some cred. Oh, and don't believe a word any of the law school recruiters tell you about how successful their graduates are; they manipulate some statistics and flat out lie about the rest.
Do look into the day to day practice of law to see what it's all about. It's pretty much all research and decoding of legal speak. It's a little like being a librarian for a techincal field.
Now, if you do look into that, and you find it amazing. If finding that one piece of caselaw, or that better written opinion, or those two cases that support each other brings an absolute rush. If it's something that you would be happy to do on your day off... fine, go to lawschool.
Make sure it's a very well respected lawschool. It doesn't need to be top ten, but it better have a handful of professors there whose names on a recommendation letter would immediately draw a look of respect from potential employers. How do you know that? Ask some lawyers. Oh, and you'll have to work hard enough, creatively enough, and smart enough to draw the attention of those professors and get their recommendations.
You definitely need to minimize your risk by finding a scholarship or two, otherwise even getting a decent job won't help you dig your way out of the hole.
Then kick ass in lawschool. I mean you need to study more than everybody else in your class, and more importantly understand the material better. Study and memorize and research until every time you ask your professor a question, they don't have the answer, and think it would be a good topic to write a paper on.
And then after your first year, when you're considering suicide instead of going back, which you will whether you like lawschool or not, ask yourself... do I want to do this for the next forty years?
And if the answer is yes, then keep going. Work hard. Find internships that really interest you, and learn every tiny thing you can. Every time you get turned down for something find out why, and then go after whatever it is you're missing.
And if that plan sounds like a decent way to go, then yeah, look into going to lawschool. Maybe.
--LeVar Burton
This varies greatly by region.
In my area, a very rural part of Michigan, local law firms pay well and are always looking for new talent. Lawyers literally can't keep up with demand. Do you want to live in the woods and earn a nice salary? If so, horay! If rural life isn't for you, well, maybe not so hot.
If law is something your genuinely interested in, you'll find a way. My family runs a firm in another state and claim business is good. And at least 5 of my friends are lawyers. All of them found jobs in the last 5 years without too much stress. One even quit his firm and just started doing work out of his home. He's not a rich man, but he's making ends meet without much stress. But he's very good as his job, so people seek him out.
Take the decision very heavily, but know from lawyers out there I'm not hearing all doom and gloom.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
That said, I do still understand there's the investment of not having a full time job while I'm a student, etc.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/the-lawyer-surplus-state-by-state/
Tread carefully.
There's no doubt it's going to be hard and it should be considered VERY carefully...
But this is more dramatic than called for. If he enjoys the work and is good at it, there's no reason to bet against him. It wouldn't be "useless". Quite the contrary, the majority of the new lawyers I know got jobs in Texas. A state which, according to that list, has one of the highest competition rates.
My friends have great jobs and excellent incomes. They didn't graduate from one of the top schools in Texas, either. What if somebody had told them to stay away and that their degree would be useless?
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
I mean, it's not like law school that's paid for the by the GI bill is the end of the world. It's 3 years wasted doing something crummy in the hopes that you'll luck out and get to do something about as crummy for a living. It's just that there are better decisions to make than "woo law degree."
I already said he should consider the risks, and they are substantial. But calling the degree a "useless piece of paper" and guaranteeing he'll be without a job is simply nonsense. This thread is an entire festival of "don't do it" and I wanted to offer at least a handful of examples where people ignored that advice and came out roses.
Now as for calling my "story" suspect, disputing you would serve nothing to the thread, but I assure you I'm not lying and I'm going to PM you with the details.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Also, please don't let my experience feed the "law degrees are flexible" myth. That's really just a line law schools feed people. Smart people are flexible. Having a law degree has nothing to do with it.
I think that's pretty good blanket advice for every degree. The right people always make it work.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Welcome to the world of law!
The school we currently attend is ranked like 80th in the nation for their law program, and, according to him, over 90 percent of graduates get a job in their field. But now you're saying these numbers can be fudged? Do you have any links? I'm not disputing you; I just want to show him concrete stuff so he can make a better decision.
Also, he dismisses the whole having a load of debt thing as nothing to worry about since apparently the government will only be able to take 10 percent of what someone is making. I looked into this just a few minutes ago, and I found this link that I would like to be clarified:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/education/higher-education/ensuring-that-student-loans-are-affordable
So, it says "Under this new law, students enrolling in 2014 or later can choose to..." Basically he doesn't qualify for this, then? We're in college now and he is set to graduate in Spring of 2013.
Also, the phrasing for the ten percent thing confuses me slightly: "Borrowers choosing the income-based repayment plan will pay no more than 10 percent of their income above a basic living allowance, reduced from 15 percent under current law. The basic living allowance varies with family size and is set at 150 percent of the poverty line, currently equaling about $16,500 for a single individual and $33,000 for a family of four."
I don't understand how the basic living allowance factors in. Is it basically saying that if you make more than 16,500 bucks a year, they can take more than ten percent? So really it's just a limit to make sure those who are bumping against poverty won't pay too much?
He is expecting a $60,000 job right out of college ranked like 80th, making $60,000+ a year and only paying a maximum of ten percent of that towards his student loans. I think he is living in a bubble and I just need some facts/clarification to help him see things a little more clearly (especially since he's not passionate about law at all, he just is in it for the money).
Also if you're interested in reading about it, this article shows how law schools can fake the numbers for employment statistics:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewanted=all
I'll echo the MBA over the JD. You've got the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon University as major players in the area. An MBA doesn't diminish your undergraduate degree like a JD does. It would work best as a compliment to your background. A JD sort of dominates over your undergrad career, making it almost like a prerequisite for law school instead of a viable endpoint. There's quite a few topics in the MBA curriculum that involve law, especially now that a lot of these elite business people are actually quite evil.
I should also add that business schools love love love prospective students with military experience. To them, it's becoming the ultimate leadership test. You know how to get things done in a stressful, dangerous environment. You might not get to Wall Street finance from UPitt, but I don't think you'd want to shoot for that kind of position anyway. Plus, you can get a full-time job and go part-time to school, so your opportunity cost isn't six figures.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
It's not the question of school expenses, it's whether or not there's going to be a stable job with a decent salary waiting for you once you get that diploma. If you're worried about having a stable job and income, I'd consider taking a look at medicine or IT before law.
This is the first warning sign. Not knowing what else to do is like the number one stupidest reason to go to law school.
Yes, law schools lie about their statistics.
University of Illinois College of Law lies about admissions data
Villanova Law School lies about admissions data
Don't believe a fucking thing a law school admissions officer tells you.
And here's the second stupidest reason for going to law school. As Tycho pointed out a few posts ago, the wages for lawyers are going down because there's too fucking many of us. There's barely any money for people who graduate from real law schools and there's no money for people who graduate from JD mills.
This situation sounds like military recruiting stories.
That's kind of... ominous.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
but I have friends who have gone to Law School, and I lived on campus at the Rutgers law School, so I have some anecdotal evidence to pass onto you.
If you think you will enjoy practicing Law, then go for it. But those people are few and far between (my friends are both insane).
If you have any propensity for addiction, particularly to alcohol, I will say that you should probably rethink going to Law School. I have never met a bigger group of alcoholics and chain smokers than the guys that were law students at Rutgers. This might be a regional thing, but a fair warning all the same. There were entire classes that I remember them taking where the entire grade was determined on one final paper/presentation. If you are not ready for that level of pressure, then you should not go to law school.
Also, there are no jobs.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
It's not a regional thing. It's an occupation thing. Attorneys as an occupation have very high rates of alcoholism and addiction to drugs.
The vast majority of law school classes are determined by one paper or one exam given at the end of the semester. I have only taken 2 classes, both writing classes, where I had multiple assignments that made up my final grade. It's a lot of pressure and a lot of students don't handle it well.
There's no harm in the OP taking the LSAT and figuring out his options based on that result. If he ends up with the scores needed to get into a top 10 or so school, law school starts to look like an attractive option.
Rigorous Scholarship
I eventually worked for myself at the end earning about 16k in 2006. I suppose if I stuck with it I could have developed my own client-base and started earning more, but I was pretty burnt out at that time. I suffered from panic attacks and started developing a rage problem (people used to call me one of the most mellow people they knew). I had divorce clients who were nuts (IMHO all divorcees are nuts.) I had criminal defendants who lied to me even after I tried laying into them the importance of at least telling me the truth. I sued people who had no money and whose life was ruined because my client was a douche (which, of course I didn't realize until I had gotten too far into the case to back out.) I had judges scream at me for no reason at all. I had personal injury clients who bitched about the thousands of dollars they got even though I got them WAY more than they ever deserved.
The only good thing about my three years was the really sweet card a nice old lady wrote me when I helped discharge all her debts through bankruptcy. Oh, and the time I totally kicked a big law firm lawyer's ass in a summary judgment motion. That was sweet. (Though ultimately I lost money on that case because the hours I put into it far exceeded the settlement we reached.)
I still love the law--in an academic sense. I love chatting with professors at the school where I work, and I occasionally pick up a pro bono case (though not lately since my daughter was born.) But I can't stand the stress of managing a practice.
So, if you think you've got the entrepreneurial drive to do your best at whatever you do and you like the stress of taking on a challenge and meeting it and exceeding it, then I'd say the law is for you. Otherwise staayyyyy awayyyyyy!!!
EDIT: I'm a web developer now, exploiting the contacts and skills I developed before I entered law school, and I earn much more money now and I'm much happier/relaxed.
I think the bottom line from alot of posters is accurate...make sure actually practicing law is exactly what you want to do. OP has a huge advantage in that he would essentially be going to law school for free; if you're sure that is the case, all you stand to lose is 4 years of your life, which is a big deal but it won't leave you in the position of thousands of law grads nowadays who can't find a job and have a crippling amount of debt.
For what it's worth, an Economist editorial has made a reasonable case of why you shouldn't bother with an mba either , unless you're already working in a business field and the job is footing the bill. Granted the OP can potentially pay for post grad schooling with the GI bill. Also if the OP is looking to stay in the Pittsburgh area, getting the MBA wouldn't result in shooting himself in the foot like a law degree. Yet, this editorial argues that if you're just looking to work regionally, not much use in plunking down the time and money for an MBA either. Basically mba's are in the same boat as a lot of post-grad/professional degrees right now as well, if not to the extreme circumstance of law students.
Also if the OP is looking at law school based on what he's read in novels, im going to throw my hat into the "Don't bother" ring. Or at least don't bother beyond taking the LSAT and see how you do. I would actually ask the OP what your previous experience was in the military, and suggest just trying to find any old gig to hold down for the next year or two. During that period really, really, research what the practice of law is all about, and the environment of law school, and hell do the same for MBA degrees too if that is something you would consider. Nothing wrong with stepping into the post-grad arena at 30 with all your eggs and baskets in order. Though of course I guess the issue that could crop up then is if you still qualify for GI bill funding at that point. So i suppose my ultimate takeaway is, for the near future, do more research (and talk to more people) and sit in on the LSAT. Military experience and a bachelor's with a 3.8 gpa is nothing to sneeze at in the job market, especially if (from what i've heard) pittsburgh isn't doing horrible.
Having said that, if all you know about being a lawyer comes from John Grisham novels, these feint words of encouragement probably don't apply to you.
"What job do you want to have that you can only have by being a lawyer?"
"Uhh... I dunno."
"Don't go to law school until you can answer that question"
Yes, if you have a full network or access to one in any job makes it easier. That's why the top law schools are the top law schools, and MIT opens doors in science even when it shouldn't. It just happens.