Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2011
The pvt winrate changes came about for three main reasons.
1) the double forge build was already gaining in popularity before the most recent patch, and the patch only made it better. Terrans haven't figured out a really good way to play against this style yet.
2) the patch changes in the second most recent patch made the 1/1/1 all-in that was so popular much easier to stop. Not to the degree where it was a dead build, but Protoss were already beginning to hold it off fairly reliably before the 1.4 patch, and that patch only made things easier. This build inflated the terran winrate quite a bit because of how good it was.
3) the emp nerf certainly is a pretty significant thing and made ghosts much, much less of a one-size-fits-all response in the lategame. In some games i saw, the terran was able to beat a protoss army that had 4 or more colossus, without needing vikings, simply due to how brutally upgraded marauders slaughter shield-less protoss units.
i seriously don't understand how people played on steppes of war
hell, how did we ?
i was fucking actively laddering during that period and i dont know how we even could bear to play on jungle basin, steppes of war, blistering sands, or scrap station, but fuck if that wasn't 80% of the map pool once upon a time!
it's like the beginning of WoW. Everyone who played at release is now better at sc2 than new players because we had to play a crazier, more difficult, less refined game on crazier, more difficult maps.
i seriously don't understand how people played on steppes of war
hell, how did we ?
i was fucking actively laddering during that period and i dont know how we even could bear to play on jungle basin, steppes of war, blistering sands, or scrap station, but fuck if that wasn't 80% of the map pool once upon a time!
it's like the beginning of WoW. Everyone who played at release is now better at sc2 than new players because we had to play a crazier, more difficult, less refined game on crazier, more difficult maps.
With Rogues in 5/8 t1 + 3/8 t2 who could literally 2shot cloth wearers because lethality worked for ambush and was 100% for a while? (I can't confirm the 100% but I'm pretty sure it was that before they dropped it to 50, then 30).
As much as I'm not a huge fan of wow's playstyle Vanilla was pretty fucking fun with the right people. Flying mounts sort of ruined the game for me.
stimtokolos on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Flying mounts were too cool not to add at some point, but they made it difficult to improve upon them.
while we're talking about not starcraft again, stim, did you see they added air control to quake live now?
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
I am sick and tired of people just parroting the old "you just need macro to get to masters.". It is fucking annoying.
I know why I'm in platinum, and its not my fucking macro. I have the worst decision making in the entire world, and I can't micro to save my life, but my macro is FINE.
I am sick and tired of people just parroting the old "you just need macro to get to masters.". It is fucking annoying.
I know why I'm in platinum, and its not my fucking macro. I have the worst decision making in the entire world, and I can't micro to save my life, but my macro is FINE.
It's entirely possible you're right.
Narwhal seriously seems to macro at somewhere near a platinum level, but one week ago did not understand the finer points of attacking-instead-of-walking-in-circles during battles.
Narwhal.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
while we're talking about not starcraft again, stim, did you see they added air control to quake live now?
Like CPMA, or some lesser amount? Because even with that I'd rather just play CPMA.
They hired the CPMA netcode guys, and somehow the netcode didn't get any better. I don't know what the fuck.
while we're talking about not starcraft again, stim, did you see they added air control to quake live now?
Like CPMA, or some lesser amount? Because even with that I'd rather just play CPMA.
They hired the CPMA netcode guys, and somehow the netcode didn't get any better. I don't know what the fuck.
Hrm, looks decent. Not as much as CPMA but close. I still sort of rather the CPMA item timings, weapon damages and spawn HP though.
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
pretty simple, just follow the instructions, just remember whenever the next patch happens to use the 'clean' option, otherwise your install will all go broke
well, there are other things which can hinder your progress towards being better
- crisis management-- cheese, early pressure, drops; this helps you not lose to the shit you shouldn't lose to
- big battle micro-- pretty important to not throw away that 200 food army you spent all that free time makin
- recognizing advantages and exploiting them. This makes my pants hurt the most personally, I'll watch a replay and see at some point that I got way ahead in every aspect but I didn't attack, or deny something, or push ahead in econ, tech, or army size fast enough and let the other guy catch back up.
i think we can all agree that everyone could stand to improve their macro and micro. i'd also argue that i personally am not aware of just how much bad macro negatively impacts me as opposed to bad micro, because it's much easier to identify when i make micro mistakes than macro mistakes (the consequences of macro mistakes are subtle; with bad micro, you're controlling the dudes in question and are VERY aware of the immediate consequences)
that said, it's not so hard to imagine that someone might have comparably better macro than micro at their respective level
at the very least, suggesting that their macro is the ONLY thing holding them back seems counterproductive
useless aside: micro vs. macro in sc2 reminds me of mario kart 64 time trials. i got really into them when i was in high school, and spent a lot of time working on course strategy (micro) and game mechanics (macro). i'd watch videos of world record runs and be astonished how someone taking the exact same route as me, using their mushrooms at the same time, and doing the same number of powerslides could put up a time so much faster than mine. of course, the reason they were crushing my times was because their "macro" was perfect -- they executed their powerslides in an optimal amount of time, drifted for the exact right amount of time after each slide, and never took a turn at a 130 degree angle when it should be 125. the accumulation of incremental advantages was what made the top guys so good.
useless aside: micro vs. macro in sc2 reminds me of mario kart 64 time trials. i got really into them when i was in high school, and spent a lot of time working on course strategy (micro) and game mechanics (macro). i'd watch videos of world record runs and be astonished how someone taking the exact same route as me, using their mushrooms at the same time, and doing the same number of powerslides could put up a time so much faster than mine. of course, the reason they were crushing my times was because their "macro" was perfect -- they executed their powerslides in an optimal amount of time, drifted for the exact right amount of time after each slide, and never took a turn at a 130 degree angle when it should be 125. the accumulation of incremental advantages was what made the top guys so good.
i think we can all agree that everyone could stand to improve their macro and micro. i'd also argue that i personally am not aware of just how much bad macro negatively impacts me as opposed to bad micro, because it's much easier to identify when i make micro mistakes than macro mistakes (the consequences of macro mistakes are subtle; with bad micro, you're controlling the dudes in question and are VERY aware of the immediate consequences)
that said, it's not so hard to imagine that someone might have comparably better macro than micro at their respective level
at the very least, suggesting that their macro is the ONLY thing holding them back seems counterproductive
As you refine your builds you become more aware of the impact of your macro mistakes. I know I should be at 75 supply and 45 workers at the 10:00 for one of my builds, and sometimes in real matches with multitasking and scouting I'm at 55-60 supply by that point.
I still have games whose losses are supplemented by bad micro, but generally it's an error of not having enough stuff.
There are many games you lose to "bad micro" that you could have won with good macro.
There aren't really games that you lose to "bad macro" that you could have won with good mico.
I checked out the PvT replays and yeah your macro is just as bad as everyone else's in plat.
You get supply blocked, you chrono boost poorly, you maynard really bad, you're not up on constant probe production, etc. In one game I even timed how much time was wasted not researching warp gate when cyber core completed, 25 seconds. All the other stuff you listed is bad too, but your macro is also poor.
Also, you get mad and whine about race balance when you get outplayed by a mile. Nothing to do with macro, I just wanted to point that out.
while we're talking about not starcraft again, stim, did you see they added air control to quake live now?
Like CPMA, or some lesser amount? Because even with that I'd rather just play CPMA.
They hired the CPMA netcode guys, and somehow the netcode didn't get any better. I don't know what the fuck.
Hrm, looks decent. Not as much as CPMA but close. I still sort of rather the CPMA item timings, weapon damages and spawn HP though.
Yeah, it's definitely a poor substitute for CPM movement, holding +forward is almost as good as letting go of it in the QL movement, and without CPM double jumps getting around if still a lot clumsier than in CPMA.
Plus they didn't change the items, I think, so you can still easily jump over everything instead of picking it up. Definitely isn't going to replace CPMA for me.
I checked out the PvT replays and yeah your macro is just as bad as everyone else's in plat.
You get supply blocked, you chrono boost poorly, you maynard really bad, you're not up on constant probe production, etc. In one game I even timed how much time was wasted not researching warp gate when cyber core completed, 25 seconds. All the other stuff you listed is bad too, but your macro is also poor.
Also, you get mad and whine about race balance when you get outplayed by a mile. Nothing to do with macro, I just wanted to point that out.
while we're talking about not starcraft again, stim, did you see they added air control to quake live now?
Like CPMA, or some lesser amount? Because even with that I'd rather just play CPMA.
They hired the CPMA netcode guys, and somehow the netcode didn't get any better. I don't know what the fuck.
Hrm, looks decent. Not as much as CPMA but close. I still sort of rather the CPMA item timings, weapon damages and spawn HP though.
Yeah, it's definitely a poor substitute for CPM movement, holding +forward is almost as good as letting go of it in the QL movement, and without CPM double jumps getting around if still a lot clumsier than in CPMA.
Plus they didn't change the items, I think, so you can still easily jump over everything instead of picking it up. Definitely isn't going to replace CPMA for me.
Oh that movement I watched is people holding +forward to drift?
They had that in warsow for 'new movement' which played like painkiller. I used to use old movement, which had a higher acceleration rate, but more difficult cornering (CPMA basically). The +forward in oldmovement would sort of let you drift, and I'd use it in combo with +a/d and dash movement to navigate levels.
I seriously wish I was 12 again for Quake. I could aim back then. I'm pretty sure it would make playing FPS easier. If only I had the same strategic approach. I could probably get some of that back if I exercised more and was sound in the brain respect.
1. Don't let your proxy hatch decoy finish.
2. Don't take workers off gas after getting the canal because you will need it for the worms (facepalm moment).
3. Keep up with your macro.
4. Keep a "plan b" when "plan a" doesn't quite win you the game. Even if "plan a" was a considerable critical hit (took out his main nexus and left his natural at 60 hp).
My macro is awful and I beat most of the diamond players I face now. My micro is so terrible that I'm ashamed, I mean, I can do stuff like forget to blink micro right after I researched blink for that very purpose against roaches.
It is good to be self aware of how terrible you really are, like me, I know my pvz is terrible where I always just freestyle my builds.
You really improve much faster.
I can post this again of a specific game where I play pretty much terrible, but still won because I just kept even with the zerg most of the game.
I absolutely love how Dhal tests out the intricacies of builds and the subtle differences between different builds, where Mmmig literally just goes and makes proxy hatches and nydus worms and somehow they're both Masters.
I checked out the PvT replays and yeah your macro is just as bad as everyone else's in plat.
You get supply blocked, you chrono boost poorly, you maynard really bad, you're not up on constant probe production, etc. In one game I even timed how much time was wasted not researching warp gate when cyber core completed, 25 seconds. All the other stuff you listed is bad too, but your macro is also poor.
Also, you get mad and whine about race balance when you get outplayed by a mile. Nothing to do with macro, I just wanted to point that out.
I think Hoz should become the de facto replay analyzer around here. Or InControl. I would love a RitB style treatment of my gameplay. "Little known fact, rallying your stargate to your voidrays on the map so that newly created voidrays fly over every single opposing spore crawler and queen gives you battle hardened units off the bat. What nearly kills them makes them stronger"
My macro is awful and I beat most of the diamond players I face now. My micro is so terrible that I'm ashamed, I mean, I can do stuff like forget to blink micro right after I researched blink for that very purpose against roaches.
It is good to be self aware of how terrible you really are, like me, I know my pvz is terrible where I always just freestyle my builds.
You really improve much faster.
I have yet to use the blink ability more than twice in a single game.
I checked out the PvT replays and yeah your macro is just as bad as everyone else's in plat.
You get supply blocked, you chrono boost poorly, you maynard really bad, you're not up on constant probe production, etc. In one game I even timed how much time was wasted not researching warp gate when cyber core completed, 25 seconds. All the other stuff you listed is bad too, but your macro is also poor.
Also, you get mad and whine about race balance when you get outplayed by a mile. Nothing to do with macro, I just wanted to point that out.
Posts
1) the double forge build was already gaining in popularity before the most recent patch, and the patch only made it better. Terrans haven't figured out a really good way to play against this style yet.
2) the patch changes in the second most recent patch made the 1/1/1 all-in that was so popular much easier to stop. Not to the degree where it was a dead build, but Protoss were already beginning to hold it off fairly reliably before the 1.4 patch, and that patch only made things easier. This build inflated the terran winrate quite a bit because of how good it was.
3) the emp nerf certainly is a pretty significant thing and made ghosts much, much less of a one-size-fits-all response in the lategame. In some games i saw, the terran was able to beat a protoss army that had 4 or more colossus, without needing vikings, simply due to how brutally upgraded marauders slaughter shield-less protoss units.
it's like the beginning of WoW. Everyone who played at release is now better at sc2 than new players because we had to play a crazier, more difficult, less refined game on crazier, more difficult maps.
B.net: Kusanku
With Rogues in 5/8 t1 + 3/8 t2 who could literally 2shot cloth wearers because lethality worked for ambush and was 100% for a while? (I can't confirm the 100% but I'm pretty sure it was that before they dropped it to 50, then 30).
As much as I'm not a huge fan of wow's playstyle Vanilla was pretty fucking fun with the right people. Flying mounts sort of ruined the game for me.
I know why I'm in platinum, and its not my fucking macro. I have the worst decision making in the entire world, and I can't micro to save my life, but my macro is FINE.
It's entirely possible you're right.
Narwhal seriously seems to macro at somewhere near a platinum level, but one week ago did not understand the finer points of attacking-instead-of-walking-in-circles during battles.
Like CPMA, or some lesser amount? Because even with that I'd rather just play CPMA.
They hired the CPMA netcode guys, and somehow the netcode didn't get any better. I don't know what the fuck.
you might also be misunderstanding macro
its not just making workers and making manz
macro is things like
putting your gateway down at 150 minerals, not 180
macro is stuff like never ever forgetting to put guys in gas, even for 2 seconds
macro is all that stuff
when people say macro better, what they mean is, stop agonising over strategies, focus on the strategies you do have and execute them properly.
Hrm, looks decent. Not as much as CPMA but close. I still sort of rather the CPMA item timings, weapon damages and spawn HP though.
all my losses from the last 2 days (I think.)
Yes. I am very BM.
( i think)
here's the link to the relocalizer
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283919
pretty simple, just follow the instructions, just remember whenever the next patch happens to use the 'clean' option, otherwise your install will all go broke
- crisis management-- cheese, early pressure, drops; this helps you not lose to the shit you shouldn't lose to
- big battle micro-- pretty important to not throw away that 200 food army you spent all that free time makin
- recognizing advantages and exploiting them. This makes my pants hurt the most personally, I'll watch a replay and see at some point that I got way ahead in every aspect but I didn't attack, or deny something, or push ahead in econ, tech, or army size fast enough and let the other guy catch back up.
B.net: Kusanku
that said, it's not so hard to imagine that someone might have comparably better macro than micro at their respective level
at the very least, suggesting that their macro is the ONLY thing holding them back seems counterproductive
Path of Exile: snowcrash7
MTG Arena: Snow_Crash#34179
Battle.net: Snowcrash#1873
This is the big one. If somebody cheeses, I will lose to it.
I can literally scout it, and have the full time to prepare, and will just straight up lose because OH SHIT OH SHIT WHAT DO I DO!!
Path of Exile: snowcrash7
MTG Arena: Snow_Crash#34179
Battle.net: Snowcrash#1873
As you refine your builds you become more aware of the impact of your macro mistakes. I know I should be at 75 supply and 45 workers at the 10:00 for one of my builds, and sometimes in real matches with multitasking and scouting I'm at 55-60 supply by that point.
I still have games whose losses are supplemented by bad micro, but generally it's an error of not having enough stuff.
There are many games you lose to "bad micro" that you could have won with good macro.
There aren't really games that you lose to "bad macro" that you could have won with good mico.
"If I had microed just that little bit better." should be "If I had two more stalkers."
You get supply blocked, you chrono boost poorly, you maynard really bad, you're not up on constant probe production, etc. In one game I even timed how much time was wasted not researching warp gate when cyber core completed, 25 seconds. All the other stuff you listed is bad too, but your macro is also poor.
Also, you get mad and whine about race balance when you get outplayed by a mile. Nothing to do with macro, I just wanted to point that out.
Yeah, it's definitely a poor substitute for CPM movement, holding +forward is almost as good as letting go of it in the QL movement, and without CPM double jumps getting around if still a lot clumsier than in CPMA.
Plus they didn't change the items, I think, so you can still easily jump over everything instead of picking it up. Definitely isn't going to replace CPMA for me.
You mean micro right?
Oh that movement I watched is people holding +forward to drift?
They had that in warsow for 'new movement' which played like painkiller. I used to use old movement, which had a higher acceleration rate, but more difficult cornering (CPMA basically). The +forward in oldmovement would sort of let you drift, and I'd use it in combo with +a/d and dash movement to navigate levels.
I seriously wish I was 12 again for Quake. I could aim back then. I'm pretty sure it would make playing FPS easier. If only I had the same strategic approach. I could probably get some of that back if I exercised more and was sound in the brain respect.
1. Don't let your proxy hatch decoy finish.
2. Don't take workers off gas after getting the canal because you will need it for the worms (facepalm moment).
3. Keep up with your macro.
4. Keep a "plan b" when "plan a" doesn't quite win you the game. Even if "plan a" was a considerable critical hit (took out his main nexus and left his natural at 60 hp).
>.<'
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
It is good to be self aware of how terrible you really are, like me, I know my pvz is terrible where I always just freestyle my builds.
You really improve much faster.
I can post this again of a specific game where I play pretty much terrible, but still won because I just kept even with the zerg most of the game.
Obvious conclusion here - Terran OP.
I think Hoz should become the de facto replay analyzer around here. Or InControl. I would love a RitB style treatment of my gameplay. "Little known fact, rallying your stargate to your voidrays on the map so that newly created voidrays fly over every single opposing spore crawler and queen gives you battle hardened units off the bat. What nearly kills them makes them stronger"
I have yet to use the blink ability more than twice in a single game.
It's like Zappa from Guilty Gears... he'd be horrible if he tried a standard Ryu style.
Also, Dhal's better than me.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
what is maynard?
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra