Well the Canadian EB is having a funny little deal.
Buy Spiderman: Edge of Time (value: $49.99), get X-men: Destiny (value:$59.99) free.
Guess they're having to resort to giving that game away now.
Huh. Checked the Amazon prices, and the PS3 version is selling for $22.50, which indicates crap sales, while the 360 version is at $36.99, which indicates only weakish sales. Weird there's such a gulf.
What is the distribution of PS3 vs. 360 sales geographically? If it is quite different, it might explain some of the difference. Spiderman isn't as big in all areas.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Here's an example of an innovative FPS. System shock. RPG Mechanics in a shooter. (That may not actually be the first game to do this, I'm just reaching for the first game I can recall that did it)
Many innovations are nothing more than taking an idea from one place and making it work in another.
I won't be an ass and point out a prior FPS with RPG mechanics.
Well I'm actually interested...
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Here's an example of an innovative FPS. System shock. RPG Mechanics in a shooter. (That may not actually be the first game to do this, I'm just reaching for the first game I can recall that did it)
Many innovations are nothing more than taking an idea from one place and making it work in another.
I won't be an ass and point out a prior FPS with RPG mechanics.
Well I'm actually interested...
Behold: Strife! FPS RPG running on the Doom engine released in 1996.
Though I guess you could make a case for Catacombs 3D, but that was more of a fantasy proto-FPS.
EDIT: Wait, System Shock was 1994? Wow. Color me wrong then.
Ultimate Underworld had looking up and down and jumping and stuff back in 1992, AND it had a fully 3D world (even had bridges you could go over and under) But it was more Oblivion than Dark Messiah of Might and Magic on the FPS/RPG scale.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
Was the same company anyway. They turned into looking glass. But I didn't know that.
I kind of missed out on all the early games. It'd be so hard to go back to them now. Although I think looking at a few videos I could handle system shock, since it's sound was excellent and the art design in terms of colors and stuff makes it still feel kind of believable given that it's meant to be The Future (tm). Quite a few of the wall textures still look smooth like metal, since they weren't trying to approximate brickwork or anything complex.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
There was also the original King's Field (not KF2 which got rebranded KF1 in the US) which came out in 1994. First-person perspective Action/RPG ala Ultima Underworld. Also, basically the ancestor of the Demon's/Dark Souls series.
Innovation in the modern era is different from innovation back in the dark ages when the ability to look up and down could be considered innovative.
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Well the Canadian EB is having a funny little deal.
Buy Spiderman: Edge of Time (value: $49.99), get X-men: Destiny (value:$59.99) free.
Guess they're having to resort to giving that game away now.
Huh. Checked the Amazon prices, and the PS3 version is selling for $22.50, which indicates crap sales, while the 360 version is at $36.99, which indicates only weakish sales. Weird there's such a gulf.
Canada can be fucking stupid at times when it comes to price, especially price cuts. I remember getting an e-mail saying that Hyperdimension Neptunia was back in stock at Gamestop, and now $29.99. It's also back in stock up here, and still $59.99.
Sometimes it's a blessing that the CA and US Gamestops are virtually two different companies, and sometimes it's a curse.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Innovation in the modern era is different from innovation back in the dark ages when the ability to look up and down could be considered innovative.
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Well in that case I don't see what's so terribly innovative about TOR. WoW has a story, voice acting and at least one occasion where you can make a story decision. None of these things are new to the MMO space.
Innovation in the modern era is different from innovation back in the dark ages when the ability to look up and down could be considered innovative.
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Well in that case I don't see what's so terribly innovative about TOR. WoW has a story, voice acting and at least one occasion where you can make a story decision. None of these things are new to the MMO space.
Actual roleplaying. That's a pretty huge and important addition for me. I'd say making a MMORPG that's actually concerned with the RPG part is innovative. It is the only MMO I can think of where I can sit down and think "okay, what do I want this character's general attitude and motivation to be?" and actually play through the game the way I want that character to act, with limits of course as it's still a video game. I can't tell you how much that enriches the experience for me, how much more it gets me invested in the world and the quests and my character.
Saying "oh WoW has voice acting too and you can make a choice once so it's the same" is a really dishonest way of portraying how the two games handle story and character. In WoW and most other MMOs you're just along for the ride and no attention is payed to what kind of person your character is. In TOR you are shaping your own character and his/her personality, which is a different experience.
You know, people keep on saying about how they want an MMO with lasting consequences, but Cataclysm proved that people will bitch mightily if they "miss" something.
A very vocal and tiny minority of players want crazy always-on PVP with easily failable quests and permadeath. The rest of the players have no interest so, yes, people were pissed. :P
I think the thing that bothers me the most about TOR is not that it's like WoW or anything like that, it's that I can't say that I want KOTOR 3 now. Because some jerk will inevitably respond that I should just play TOR. And I will respond with a Vader-like NNNNOOOOOOO.
Done are the days where I feel like I'm burning handfuls of money if I'm not devoting enough time to a subscription baseed computer game. I would also like a new sci-fi action RPG that isn't Mass Effect or Deus Ex on my consoles please.
Innovation in the modern era is different from innovation back in the dark ages when the ability to look up and down could be considered innovative.
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Well in that case I don't see what's so terribly innovative about TOR. WoW has a story, voice acting and at least one occasion where you can make a story decision. None of these things are new to the MMO space.
Actual roleplaying. That's a pretty huge and important addition for me. I'd say making a MMORPG that's actually concerned with the RPG part is innovative. It is the only MMO I can think of where I can sit down and think "okay, what do I want this character's general attitude and motivation to be?" and actually play through the game the way I want that character to act, with limits of course as it's still a video game. I can't tell you how much that enriches the experience for me, how much more it gets me invested in the world and the quests and my character.
Saying "oh WoW has voice acting too and you can make a choice once so it's the same" is a really dishonest way of portraying how the two games handle story and character. In WoW and most other MMOs you're just along for the ride and no attention is payed to what kind of person your character is. In TOR you are shaping your own character and his/her personality, which is a different experience.
reVerse is making a comment about what you consider innovation. WoW had voice-acting and story and even, very rarely, a story decision. What TOR did was use those tools to craft a personal story for you. Which is certainly an advancement, but I wouldn't' call it a huge one.
Because beyond making the story person, there isn't a ton of innovation in TOR. There's some other smaller things, but alot of them are balanced against things that are behind the times.
Which, to get back to the original article, was what the Bioware guy was complaining people were saying.
I have difficulty calling the story an innovation because it's such an awkward stitched together Frankenstein. It has the MMO and Single Player Storyline parts, but they don't seem to work together that much, if at all. If anything they seem to be getting in each other's way. The story stuff tries to preserve itself and chops up the world into instances and individual phases which just end up undermining the multiplayer part by making the world seems depopulated and empty and then the MMO part demands the levelling and massive amounts of content which undermine the main storyline pacing and the multiplayer part which at best has no interaction and at worst causes contradictions and cognitive dissonance.
It's not a platypus, it's just parts of a duck and a beaver cut up and hastily stapled together with duct tape over the seams.
You know, people keep on saying about how they want an MMO with lasting consequences, but Cataclysm proved that people will bitch mightily if they "miss" something.
People want an MMO where their actions have lasting consequences, not other peoples.
Kinda hard in an MMO.
City of Heroes is trying to do this. In the newly revamped starting zones, you have some pretty drastic storylines that change the environment somewhat (taking down some thugs gets more police on the streets, and you can rescue a contact's wife and she'll stand beside him afterwards and she wasn't there before hand).
They get around the grouping thing by handing the team leader's choices reflect the world but if you solo, all you see are the results of your actions.
Also, a Command & Conquer (with Tiberium) Facebook game?
Fuuuuuu--
Though I did try Lords of Ultimate for a week before I gave up.
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NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
You know, people keep on saying about how they want an MMO with lasting consequences, but Cataclysm proved that people will bitch mightily if they "miss" something.
A very vocal and tiny minority of players want crazy always-on PVP with easily failable quests and permadeath. The rest of the players have no interest so, yes, people were pissed. :P
I know I was pissed when I was trying to find a recipe for crafting and the ONLY source for it on Horde-side was destroyed and there were no plans for replacement.
1) Will Origin be a requirement to play all versions of Mass Effect 3? (Digital and/or from a retail brick and mortar store)
Yes, Origin is required for all PC editions of Mass Effect 3, physical or digital.
2) Is constant Origin connection required or is it a single one off authentication when the game is first installed. Is there also a limit to the number of installations available?
Mass Effect 3 will require a one time, single authorization for the single player game. There is no limit to the number of installs. Playing Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer will require a constant connection.
3) Is Origin required for the retail versions of the game?
Origin is required for the PC versions of Mass Effect 3, both physical and digital.
4) Will ME3 be available on Steam?
During initial release Mass Effect 3 will be available on Origin and a number of other 3rd party digital retailers, but not on Steam at this time. Steam has adopted a set of restrictive terms of service which limit how developers interact with customers to deliver patches and other downloadable content. We are intent on providing Mass Effect to players with the best possible experience no matter where they purchase or play their game, and are happy to partner with any download service that does not restrict our ability to connect directly with our consumers.
5) Is there an opt in or opt out clause for data collection?
Users will be allowed to opt-out of Mass Effect 3 data collection from inside the game.
6) I’ve seen reports that Origin is spyware. Is this true?
Origin is not spyware, and does not use or install spyware on user’s machines. In order to allow Origin to install games and their patches for everyone to use, Origin implements a permission change that results in Windows, not Origin, reviewing the filenames in the ProgramData/Origin folder. This is an ordinary Windows function, not an information-gathering process.
7) Has the Origin EULA been updated following recent questions in Germany?
The German Origin EULA has been updated. For more information, please review the Origin EULA here: http://www.ea.com/1/product-eulas.
8) Is there a double-opt in for Mass Effect 3 marketing emails for German residents?
Yes, we always adhere to the German requirement of a double opt-in standard for marketing emails. Mass Effect 3 users must opt-in twice to receive these emails.
I for one am glad someone out there is standing up for the little guy and spreading the true gospel. Origin fever is taking the nation, if not the world!
This isn't strictly industry business but The Verge just did a 5 minute preview of the WiiU from CES and it's the highest quality video and presentation I've seen of it yet. We had a lot of shakeycam stuff at E3 that sucked, but this really shows off what the system's capable of, especially the Zelda demo.
One nice thing to hear reconfirmed (apparently) is 1080p. Hopefully it's powerful enough to do it easily for all games and not just straddle the 720/1080 line like this gen did...but that's probably still likely to happen, some devs will want to push effects and a strong frame rate rather than resolution.
Since Sporky posted it, I can't stop watching this.
Innovation in the modern era is different from innovation back in the dark ages when the ability to look up and down could be considered innovative.
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Well in that case I don't see what's so terribly innovative about TOR. WoW has a story, voice acting and at least one occasion where you can make a story decision. None of these things are new to the MMO space.
Actual roleplaying. That's a pretty huge and important addition for me. I'd say making a MMORPG that's actually concerned with the RPG part is innovative. It is the only MMO I can think of where I can sit down and think "okay, what do I want this character's general attitude and motivation to be?" and actually play through the game the way I want that character to act, with limits of course as it's still a video game. I can't tell you how much that enriches the experience for me, how much more it gets me invested in the world and the quests and my character.
Saying "oh WoW has voice acting too and you can make a choice once so it's the same" is a really dishonest way of portraying how the two games handle story and character. In WoW and most other MMOs you're just along for the ride and no attention is payed to what kind of person your character is. In TOR you are shaping your own character and his/her personality, which is a different experience.
reVerse is making a comment about what you consider innovation. WoW had voice-acting and story and even, very rarely, a story decision. What TOR did was use those tools to craft a personal story for you. Which is certainly an advancement, but I wouldn't' call it a huge one.
And I would.
It is a fundamental, major shift to my MMO gameplay experience. Not some little detail. Despite both games having basically the same combat and quest system, my playthrough of WoW and my playthrough or TOR are very different experiences.
You can argue that what they did isn't good enough, or that they could do more, or whatever. But it's wrong to say they didn't bring something new to the MMO table, or to write it off as some tiny addition.
The thing is, even TOR didn't bring anything to the table with an in-depth story. FFXI has had that for years. Piss and moan all you want about the gameplay of XI, but it has a great story that is as good or better than most non-MMO games out there. You participate in it; granted there's no Bioware style dialogue options for the most part, but you are in virtally every cutscene participating int he story, key characters speak to you and refer to you all the time etc.
So even in that regard TOR isn't innovating in any real measure.
There's nothing wrong with TOR and it's a good game; but it isn't innovating the genre or pushing any boundaries. Like WoW before it, it is simply taking what is already there and adding it together in a way that is presented far better than most other MMOs.
The innovation isn't "there is a story" or "there is a good story" it is how that story is presented.
The actual roleplaying is what the game offers that nothing else really does to anything close to the same extent. In FF you are participating in the story but how much are you shaping your character within it? Or are you just the generic hero who acts exactly the same in those cutscenes as every other PC?
HedgethornAssociate Professor of Historical Hobby HorsesIn the Lions' DenRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Nintendo has posted the top 10 bestselling Wii, DS, and 3DS games for 2011.
Wii Top 10 for 2011 (NPD)
(1) Just Dance 3
(2) Just Dance 2
(3) Zumba Fitness
(4) Michael Jackson The Experience
(5) Mario Kart Wii
(6) New Super Mario Bros. Wii
(7) The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
(8) Donkey Kong Country Returns
(9) Skylanders Spyro's Adventure
(10) LEGO Star Wars III: The Saga Continues to Build
For a couple of points of reference, Just Dance 3 has supposedly sold over 3 million copies; Skyward Sword is somewhere over 1.2 million (possibly quite a bit more).
3DS Top 10 for 2011 (NPD)
(1) Super Mario 3D Land
(2) Mario Kart 7
(3) The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D
(4) SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV 3D EDITION
(5) Star Fox 64 3D
(6) Pokémon Rumble Blast
(7) LEGO Star Wars III: The Clone Wars
(8) Pilotwings Resort
(9) Asphalt 3D
(10) nintendogs + cats: Golden Retriever & New Friends
DS Top 10 for 2011 (NPD)
(1) Pokémon White Version
(2) Pokémon Black Version
(3) New Super Mario Bros.
(4) Mario Kart DS
(5) Plants vs Zombies
(6) Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-land Mayhem!
(7) LEGO Star Wars III: The Battle For Bricks Just Got Bigger!
(8) Cars 2: The Video Game
(9) Super Mario 64 DS
(10) LEGO Battles: Ninjago
Innovation in the modern era is different from innovation back in the dark ages when the ability to look up and down could be considered innovative.
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Well in that case I don't see what's so terribly innovative about TOR. WoW has a story, voice acting and at least one occasion where you can make a story decision. None of these things are new to the MMO space.
Actual roleplaying. That's a pretty huge and important addition for me. I'd say making a MMORPG that's actually concerned with the RPG part is innovative. It is the only MMO I can think of where I can sit down and think "okay, what do I want this character's general attitude and motivation to be?" and actually play through the game the way I want that character to act, with limits of course as it's still a video game. I can't tell you how much that enriches the experience for me, how much more it gets me invested in the world and the quests and my character.
Saying "oh WoW has voice acting too and you can make a choice once so it's the same" is a really dishonest way of portraying how the two games handle story and character. In WoW and most other MMOs you're just along for the ride and no attention is payed to what kind of person your character is. In TOR you are shaping your own character and his/her personality, which is a different experience.
reVerse is making a comment about what you consider innovation. WoW had voice-acting and story and even, very rarely, a story decision. What TOR did was use those tools to craft a personal story for you. Which is certainly an advancement, but I wouldn't' call it a huge one.
And I would.
It is a fundamental, major shift to my MMO gameplay experience. Not some little detail. Despite both games having basically the same combat and quest system, my playthrough of WoW and my playthrough or TOR are very different experiences.
You can argue that what they did isn't good enough, or that they could do more, or whatever. But it's wrong to say they didn't bring something new to the MMO table, or to write it off as some tiny addition.
And even if you feel that way, that's still a small part of the game. The rest is a standard WoW-like MMO. No one said they didn't bring anything new to the table, just not very much.
Innovation in the modern era is different from innovation back in the dark ages when the ability to look up and down could be considered innovative.
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Well in that case I don't see what's so terribly innovative about TOR. WoW has a story, voice acting and at least one occasion where you can make a story decision. None of these things are new to the MMO space.
Actual roleplaying. That's a pretty huge and important addition for me. I'd say making a MMORPG that's actually concerned with the RPG part is innovative. It is the only MMO I can think of where I can sit down and think "okay, what do I want this character's general attitude and motivation to be?" and actually play through the game the way I want that character to act, with limits of course as it's still a video game. I can't tell you how much that enriches the experience for me, how much more it gets me invested in the world and the quests and my character.
Saying "oh WoW has voice acting too and you can make a choice once so it's the same" is a really dishonest way of portraying how the two games handle story and character. In WoW and most other MMOs you're just along for the ride and no attention is payed to what kind of person your character is. In TOR you are shaping your own character and his/her personality, which is a different experience.
reVerse is making a comment about what you consider innovation. WoW had voice-acting and story and even, very rarely, a story decision. What TOR did was use those tools to craft a personal story for you. Which is certainly an advancement, but I wouldn't' call it a huge one.
And I would.
It is a fundamental, major shift to my MMO gameplay experience. Not some little detail. Despite both games having basically the same combat and quest system, my playthrough of WoW and my playthrough or TOR are very different experiences.
You can argue that what they did isn't good enough, or that they could do more, or whatever. But it's wrong to say they didn't bring something new to the MMO table, or to write it off as some tiny addition.
And even if you feel that way, that's still a small part of the game.
I disagree, for reasons already stated. It's a large, very important part of the game that plays a huge part in the whole experience.
360 moved 1.7 million units, down about 8% from last December.
gaf calculates from various hints that the Wii and PS3 both sold about 1 million even (Wii: 1.05 mill, PS3: 950K).
The Wii is down 55% Year over Year; the PS3 is down about 22%. Bring on the price cuts and the new consoles!
Honestly, it's just as likely a function of the shit economy.
How does the economy explain all three consoles being down from last Christmas, when the economy in December 2011 is markedly better than the economy in December 2010, by just about every measure one could cite? (Consumer confidence, in particular, is much higher than it was last Christmas.)
In what way is the economy markedly better?
The economy is as shit as it was last year, but it being shit longer means it's worse now then it was then.
Consumer confidence is up compared to last year (Dec '10: 52.5, Dec '11: 64.5), unemployment is down (Dec '10: 9.4%, Dec '11: 8.6%), average hours worked are up, median income is up...like I said, by just about every measure one could cite, the economy in December 2011 is better than the economy in December 2010. That doesn't mean the economy is good, but it is in fact better.
Employment/population ratio is stable and still utterly shit. All the measures you cite aren't really that relevant in light of other factors such as this. It's like saying the stock market is up so things are better. There's been no meaningful improvement.
As someone pointed out last page (near the bottom if you are looking for it), sales are down in software as well. This probably isn't just generation fatigue.
So from the sounds of it, the journey in TOR seems pretty dang spiffy.
Thing is, the journey isn't what keeps the subs going. The journey will sell the game and maybe a one month subscription. It's what happens after that, when people reach the end. They better have that all planned out, or people are going to be dropping in droves.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
So from the sounds of it, the journey in TOR seems pretty dang spiffy.
Thing is, the journey isn't what keeps the subs going. The journey will sell the game and maybe a one month subscription. It's what happens after that, when people reach the end. They better have that all planned out, or people are going to be dropping in droves.
You're right, though I think it helps that the game is very alt-friendly and there's more of an incentive to play through with multiple characters.
I'm not at the endgame yet but the general feeling I'm getting from people is that it's not great. That's not really a huge deal to me cause I find the whole "endgame" concept lame and plan on spending most of my time on a new character after hitting 50, but it's a big deal to a lot of MMO players and like you said, what keeps the money coming in.
So from the sounds of it, the journey in TOR seems pretty dang spiffy.
Thing is, the journey isn't what keeps the subs going. The journey will sell the game and maybe a one month subscription. It's what happens after that, when people reach the end. They better have that all planned out, or people are going to be dropping in droves.
You're right, though I think it helps that the game is very alt-friendly and there's more of an incentive to play through with multiple characters.
I'm not at the endgame yet but the general feeling I'm getting from people is that it's not great. That's not really a huge deal to me cause I find the whole "endgame" concept lame and plan on spending most of my time on a new character after hitting 50, but it's a big deal to a lot of MMO players and like you said, what keeps the money coming in.
It's a big deal in that it's literally one of the main, if not the main, thing that makes it an MMO.
Otherwise it's just a standard Bioware RPG. Ok, one with co-op.
So from the sounds of it, the journey in TOR seems pretty dang spiffy.
Thing is, the journey isn't what keeps the subs going. The journey will sell the game and maybe a one month subscription. It's what happens after that, when people reach the end. They better have that all planned out, or people are going to be dropping in droves.
You're right, though I think it helps that the game is very alt-friendly and there's more of an incentive to play through with multiple characters.
I'm not at the endgame yet but the general feeling I'm getting from people is that it's not great. That's not really a huge deal to me cause I find the whole "endgame" concept lame and plan on spending most of my time on a new character after hitting 50, but it's a big deal to a lot of MMO players and like you said, what keeps the money coming in.
It's a big deal in that it's literally one of the main, if not the main, thing that makes it an MMO.
Otherwise it's just a standard Bioware RPG. Ok, one with co-op.
I dunno, I don't think "endgame" as it exists in MMOs is really something that needs to be the way it is. I mean, constantly grinding the same quests and dungeons every day for small gear upgrades so you can do the harder versions of the same things every day for small gear upgrades until a few months later when a couple new things are released to play through, doesn't feel like something that needs to be an essential part of a MMO to me. It's certainly not "what makes it a MMO", the fact that they are big online multiplayer worlds is what makes them MMOs. That "with co-op" thing that you're brushing off is more or less what makes it a MMO. The things you do at endgame are the same things you do with other players throughout the normal game, the only difference is that it's required.
I'm not sure what else a MMO designer could do to move away from it, but I don't think it would be wrong to try to do so. I'd say encouraging alts as much as possible is a good start, which is something TOR does fairly well.
That being said, TOR IS trying to do a traditional endgame thing, so it's fair to critique how well they do it, and it seems like it's mediocre.
I think it's important to note that there's a difference between massively multiplayer and just plain multiplayer. Running an instance or a group with 3 other guys is something I can do in Gears of War 3, so saying the coop is "what makes it an MMO" is kinda odd to me. Certainly running around in the same zone as 100 other people makes it an MMO, but nothing in the story is anything that couldn't be done in an regular rpg with a coop component.
True which is why I said "more or less" but I guess I shouldn't have worded things like that.
What I mean is, you are running around in a world where everyone else is also running around in, meeting them, questing with them, fighting them, chatting with them, etc. That is what makes it a MMO. You do these things in "endgame" but you also do this through the rest of the game. The only major core difference is that "endgame" content absolutely requires you to be in groups whereas prior to it it's up to you how much you want to take part in the social aspect.
Honestly, 99% of my groups come from me doing /LFG's in the chat channel, which is basically a super primitive form of matchmaking. I think the massively part of the game is lost on me.
I do think they should ape WoW's LFG tool. I know people harp on about how it "ruins the social aspect" and all that but honestly, running around the Imperial Fleet bugging people to come heal a Flashpoint for you isn't fun.
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What is the distribution of PS3 vs. 360 sales geographically? If it is quite different, it might explain some of the difference. Spiderman isn't as big in all areas.
Well I'm actually interested...
Behold: Strife! FPS RPG running on the Doom engine released in 1996.
Though I guess you could make a case for Catacombs 3D, but that was more of a fantasy proto-FPS.
EDIT: Wait, System Shock was 1994? Wow. Color me wrong then.
I think it had leaning.
I remember reading up about it when I played system shock 2. Can you get it on GOG nowadays?
I kind of missed out on all the early games. It'd be so hard to go back to them now. Although I think looking at a few videos I could handle system shock, since it's sound was excellent and the art design in terms of colors and stuff makes it still feel kind of believable given that it's meant to be The Future (tm). Quite a few of the wall textures still look smooth like metal, since they weren't trying to approximate brickwork or anything complex.
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
Not really.
Introducing a new thing is introducing a new thing. What is new changes, but innovation as a definition doesn't.
The industry uses the word as if it means something a lot grander and more meaningful than what it actually does. There's a lot of emotive poppycock added to it. But really it just means taking a dish and adding a new spice.
Canada can be fucking stupid at times when it comes to price, especially price cuts. I remember getting an e-mail saying that Hyperdimension Neptunia was back in stock at Gamestop, and now $29.99. It's also back in stock up here, and still $59.99.
Sometimes it's a blessing that the CA and US Gamestops are virtually two different companies, and sometimes it's a curse.
Well in that case I don't see what's so terribly innovative about TOR. WoW has a story, voice acting and at least one occasion where you can make a story decision. None of these things are new to the MMO space.
Like I already said:
Saying "oh WoW has voice acting too and you can make a choice once so it's the same" is a really dishonest way of portraying how the two games handle story and character. In WoW and most other MMOs you're just along for the ride and no attention is payed to what kind of person your character is. In TOR you are shaping your own character and his/her personality, which is a different experience.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Should I watch the Giant Bomb quick look?
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
A very vocal and tiny minority of players want crazy always-on PVP with easily failable quests and permadeath. The rest of the players have no interest so, yes, people were pissed. :P
Done are the days where I feel like I'm burning handfuls of money if I'm not devoting enough time to a subscription baseed computer game. I would also like a new sci-fi action RPG that isn't Mass Effect or Deus Ex on my consoles please.
reVerse is making a comment about what you consider innovation. WoW had voice-acting and story and even, very rarely, a story decision. What TOR did was use those tools to craft a personal story for you. Which is certainly an advancement, but I wouldn't' call it a huge one.
Because beyond making the story person, there isn't a ton of innovation in TOR. There's some other smaller things, but alot of them are balanced against things that are behind the times.
Which, to get back to the original article, was what the Bioware guy was complaining people were saying.
It's not a platypus, it's just parts of a duck and a beaver cut up and hastily stapled together with duct tape over the seams.
City of Heroes is trying to do this. In the newly revamped starting zones, you have some pretty drastic storylines that change the environment somewhat (taking down some thugs gets more police on the streets, and you can rescue a contact's wife and she'll stand beside him afterwards and she wasn't there before hand).
They get around the grouping thing by handing the team leader's choices reflect the world but if you solo, all you see are the results of your actions.
Also, a Command & Conquer (with Tiberium) Facebook game?
Fuuuuuu--
Though I did try Lords of Ultimate for a week before I gave up.
I know I was pissed when I was trying to find a recipe for crafting and the ONLY source for it on Horde-side was destroyed and there were no plans for replacement.
I for one am glad someone out there is standing up for the little guy and spreading the true gospel. Origin fever is taking the nation, if not the world!
Since Sporky posted it, I can't stop watching this.
Need new consoles.
Neeeeeed!
And I would.
It is a fundamental, major shift to my MMO gameplay experience. Not some little detail. Despite both games having basically the same combat and quest system, my playthrough of WoW and my playthrough or TOR are very different experiences.
You can argue that what they did isn't good enough, or that they could do more, or whatever. But it's wrong to say they didn't bring something new to the MMO table, or to write it off as some tiny addition.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
So even in that regard TOR isn't innovating in any real measure.
There's nothing wrong with TOR and it's a good game; but it isn't innovating the genre or pushing any boundaries. Like WoW before it, it is simply taking what is already there and adding it together in a way that is presented far better than most other MMOs.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
The actual roleplaying is what the game offers that nothing else really does to anything close to the same extent. In FF you are participating in the story but how much are you shaping your character within it? Or are you just the generic hero who acts exactly the same in those cutscenes as every other PC?
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Wii Top 10 for 2011 (NPD)
(1) Just Dance 3
(2) Just Dance 2
(3) Zumba Fitness
(4) Michael Jackson The Experience
(5) Mario Kart Wii
(6) New Super Mario Bros. Wii
(7) The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
(8) Donkey Kong Country Returns
(9) Skylanders Spyro's Adventure
(10) LEGO Star Wars III: The Saga Continues to Build
For a couple of points of reference, Just Dance 3 has supposedly sold over 3 million copies; Skyward Sword is somewhere over 1.2 million (possibly quite a bit more).
3DS Top 10 for 2011 (NPD)
(1) Super Mario 3D Land
(2) Mario Kart 7
(3) The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D
(4) SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV 3D EDITION
(5) Star Fox 64 3D
(6) Pokémon Rumble Blast
(7) LEGO Star Wars III: The Clone Wars
(8) Pilotwings Resort
(9) Asphalt 3D
(10) nintendogs + cats: Golden Retriever & New Friends
DS Top 10 for 2011 (NPD)
(1) Pokémon White Version
(2) Pokémon Black Version
(3) New Super Mario Bros.
(4) Mario Kart DS
(5) Plants vs Zombies
(6) Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-land Mayhem!
(7) LEGO Star Wars III: The Battle For Bricks Just Got Bigger!
(8) Cars 2: The Video Game
(9) Super Mario 64 DS
(10) LEGO Battles: Ninjago
And even if you feel that way, that's still a small part of the game. The rest is a standard WoW-like MMO. No one said they didn't bring anything new to the table, just not very much.
I disagree, for reasons already stated. It's a large, very important part of the game that plays a huge part in the whole experience.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Employment/population ratio is stable and still utterly shit. All the measures you cite aren't really that relevant in light of other factors such as this. It's like saying the stock market is up so things are better. There's been no meaningful improvement.
As someone pointed out last page (near the bottom if you are looking for it), sales are down in software as well. This probably isn't just generation fatigue.
Thing is, the journey isn't what keeps the subs going. The journey will sell the game and maybe a one month subscription. It's what happens after that, when people reach the end. They better have that all planned out, or people are going to be dropping in droves.
You're right, though I think it helps that the game is very alt-friendly and there's more of an incentive to play through with multiple characters.
I'm not at the endgame yet but the general feeling I'm getting from people is that it's not great. That's not really a huge deal to me cause I find the whole "endgame" concept lame and plan on spending most of my time on a new character after hitting 50, but it's a big deal to a lot of MMO players and like you said, what keeps the money coming in.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
It's a big deal in that it's literally one of the main, if not the main, thing that makes it an MMO.
Otherwise it's just a standard Bioware RPG. Ok, one with co-op.
I dunno, I don't think "endgame" as it exists in MMOs is really something that needs to be the way it is. I mean, constantly grinding the same quests and dungeons every day for small gear upgrades so you can do the harder versions of the same things every day for small gear upgrades until a few months later when a couple new things are released to play through, doesn't feel like something that needs to be an essential part of a MMO to me. It's certainly not "what makes it a MMO", the fact that they are big online multiplayer worlds is what makes them MMOs. That "with co-op" thing that you're brushing off is more or less what makes it a MMO. The things you do at endgame are the same things you do with other players throughout the normal game, the only difference is that it's required.
I'm not sure what else a MMO designer could do to move away from it, but I don't think it would be wrong to try to do so. I'd say encouraging alts as much as possible is a good start, which is something TOR does fairly well.
That being said, TOR IS trying to do a traditional endgame thing, so it's fair to critique how well they do it, and it seems like it's mediocre.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
What I mean is, you are running around in a world where everyone else is also running around in, meeting them, questing with them, fighting them, chatting with them, etc. That is what makes it a MMO. You do these things in "endgame" but you also do this through the rest of the game. The only major core difference is that "endgame" content absolutely requires you to be in groups whereas prior to it it's up to you how much you want to take part in the social aspect.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog