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Testing character through hard times. My newfound sense of patriotism.
spacekungfuman
Poor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
Poor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
Looking around these boards, I see a ton of negative sentiment towards America, based on the economy, politics, social policies, and other complaints. I understand that things have been hard in this country over the past few years, but during this time my sense of pride in America has actually grown tremendously, and for the first time in my life, I would honestly say that I am patriotic. I would like this thread to be a place where people can post about what is good in this country, as opposed to some of the other threads about specific problems (many of which are EXTREMELY negative). I know that each point on the “pro” side will probably lead to a score of posts about why that pro is actually a terrible wrong done by the elite to the common man, but please try to keep from derailing the thread. Thank you in advance for remaining civil and on topic.
Here are some of the reasons for my growing sense of patriotism:
1. The peaceful nature of OWS. While I don’t agree with parts of OWS’s message or how they got it across, I am extremely proud of how peaceful the protests were. While they were going on, the protests were largely peaceful. Even more impressive, when it was time for them to end, there weren’t many fights between the police and the protestors. They just broke up the standing protests in a peaceful manner. This accomplishment stands in stark relief to the European protests which lasted for a much shorter time before ending in violence.
2. The US car companies actually turned around. For years I wanted the US car industry to go out of business, since I felt that they were making cars that no one really wanted to buy, and were just being propped up by tariffs and regulations. When the government bailed them out, I was furious (especially when they gave unsecured creditors like the pension plans preference over secured creditors (many of which were other pension plans who invested in GM and Chrysler)). But now I see that they really were paying for the sins of their fathers, and that the industry was actually on the verge of a recovery when it went broke. For the first time in as long as I can remember, I can actually see myself buying American (especially the Cadillac CTS coupe, which is one of the most incredible cars I have ever seen).
3. We work harder than other countries. As an employee benefits and tax attorney, I have a pretty clear idea of what is expected of executives in the US and abroad, and I am consistently staggered at how little work is expected from top people outside of the US. Even the most generous packages I have worked on for US CEOs pale in comparison to the fringe benefits that low level VPs get in countries like Holland (it is common for execs in Europe to get a full month of extra pay, on top of vacation, because they are expected to actually work in August!) I also work with lawyers in other countries, and it’s a struggle to get them to return phone calls or look at things quickly, with their constant bank holidays and seeming inability to work once they leave the office. I have no doubt that you will find hard workers in every country in the world, but in America we expect more, and seem to get it.
4. Social mobility. My great grandparents all came here from Eastern Europe with nothing and made lives for themselves, then my grandparents did better than them, my parents went to college and moved into the solid upper middle class, and now, just a few years into my career, I make as much as my father does at the end of his career. I know so many first and second generation immigrants who have done incredibly well for themselves (several work in my department). All I can really say is that if my family had stayed in Russia, I can’t imagine that I would be living the life I am here, and I am very thankful that they gave me the opportunity to move up in life like this.
Here are some of the reasons for my growing sense of patriotism:
1. The peaceful nature of OWS. While I don’t agree with parts of OWS’s message or how they got it across, I am extremely proud of how peaceful the protests were. While they were going on, the protests were largely peaceful. Even more impressive, when it was time for them to end, there weren’t many fights between the police and the protestors. They just broke up the standing protests in a peaceful manner. This accomplishment stands in stark relief to the European protests which lasted for a much shorter time before ending in violence.
2. The US car companies actually turned around. For years I wanted the US car industry to go out of business, since I felt that they were making cars that no one really wanted to buy, and were just being propped up by tariffs and regulations. When the government bailed them out, I was furious (especially when they gave unsecured creditors like the pension plans preference over secured creditors (many of which were other pension plans who invested in GM and Chrysler)). But now I see that they really were paying for the sins of their fathers, and that the industry was actually on the verge of a recovery when it went broke. For the first time in as long as I can remember, I can actually see myself buying American (especially the Cadillac CTS coupe, which is one of the most incredible cars I have ever seen).
3. We work harder than other countries. As an employee benefits and tax attorney, I have a pretty clear idea of what is expected of executives in the US and abroad, and I am consistently staggered at how little work is expected from top people outside of the US. Even the most generous packages I have worked on for US CEOs pale in comparison to the fringe benefits that low level VPs get in countries like Holland (it is common for execs in Europe to get a full month of extra pay, on top of vacation, because they are expected to actually work in August!) I also work with lawyers in other countries, and it’s a struggle to get them to return phone calls or look at things quickly, with their constant bank holidays and seeming inability to work once they leave the office. I have no doubt that you will find hard workers in every country in the world, but in America we expect more, and seem to get it.
4. Social mobility. My great grandparents all came here from Eastern Europe with nothing and made lives for themselves, then my grandparents did better than them, my parents went to college and moved into the solid upper middle class, and now, just a few years into my career, I make as much as my father does at the end of his career. I know so many first and second generation immigrants who have done incredibly well for themselves (several work in my department). All I can really say is that if my family had stayed in Russia, I can’t imagine that I would be living the life I am here, and I am very thankful that they gave me the opportunity to move up in life like this.
spacekungfuman on
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I mean, I like my country(Canada) but there are always things to criticize about what's going on in it. I feel it's somewhat irresponsible to ignore this. At least that's what the idea of patriotism seems to promote, to some extent.
America and any other developed nation wouldn't be where they are without people challenging the status quo and pondering whether things are as good as they could be, right?
3 is interesting in that you seem to regard hard work as an end in itself - may Americans work longer hours, but per-worker productivity and quality of life measurements put them behind some of the 'lazy' Europeans. Plus I'm sure the Europeans are just as pissed off with you when American holidays are going on.
4 was true, but is decreasing dramatically in modern America, and the deeply ingrained 'patriotic' ideas Americans have about social mobility are preventing things being done about that decline.
Patriotism is fine and dandy, but introspective criticism isn't bad either, especially when the patriotic mythos doesn't match up to the reality and old ideas drag on politics.
So I would be extremely hesitant to call all hard work a virtue instead of just shitty labor conditions.
The US has ten holidays. About average I'd say. Compared to 8 for the UK or 16 for Japan.
for the US, many of these are named days that are not also public holidays
the US has ten federal public holidays
Remember that as wages increases, people might want to work more. It's hard to separate causation and correlation here.
Basically, yeah.
Most of these holidays aren't vacation days. Most American professionals get 2 weeks of vacation (European nations average one month of paid vacation days), but I think event that "average" reflects a past condition, as a ton of people working at every level no longer get paid vacation days as a benefit.
Factor in the low social mobility, declining living standards, rising costs, stagnant wages and eroding benefits (pensions are pretty much gone for everyone not working for the state, paid vacation days are vanishing, healthcare costs are rising while health insurance covers less for more money) and rising costs of living (food, gas, electricity, heating oil/gas costs rise), and life in American for most is much worse than it is for the average European.
Turning "patriotism" into some sort of religion that forbids dissent and criticism is idiotic. Society and governance are technologies, ones that took humanity tens of thousands of years to develop and remain far from perfected. Ignoring social problems because you've got a good job and think "America Rocks!" is about as bright as ignoring the check engine light on your car because you worship the engineers at Honda and think they can do no wrong.
This is actually a really sad statement. Overwork is a massive problem in the US, and it's something that needs to be reined in.
Again, as was pointed out, your experience is wildly atypical. Social mobility has been decreasing, thanks to rising costs of education cutting people off from the tools to move up the ladder.
Of course. If you can actually finish your work during working hours, that means you have additional "bandwidth" to take on more work.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Note that private industry has no legal mandate to actually give people these days off. The legal designation only applies to federal employees, although many states and cities have laws mirroring the federal ones.
South Carolina and Utah, for example, did not recognize Martin Luther King Day until 2000, despite it becoming a federal holiday in 1986. South Carolina did, however, allow state employees to substitute three Confederate holidays for MLK Day until 2000.
A litany of criticisms should be seen as something positive, though - a sure sign that you haven't fallen into the trap of blind worship & praise.
0) Patriotism isn't a virtue. Standing up for values regardless of their country of origin is a virtue. Standing up for people regardless of their nationality is a virtue. Standing up for a nation regardless of what values it practices (especially if those values are incongruous with what it preaches) or how it treats its citizens is not a virtue. The US is not the worst country in the world, not by a longshot. But there's a ton of stuff we could do a lot better. This is made more frustrating because there's really no good excuse for not doing certain things better - like worker's rights, healthcare, public transit, or education.
1) I don't consider the OWS protests to be peaceful, but that's not totally the fault of the protestors. Yeah, there were some protestors who set dumpsters on fire and broke windows. But I'm talking more about stuff like the Scott Olsen incident, which was completely horrific and inexcusable.
2) We need to build up our manufacturing industry again. I don't really have anything to say about this.
3) Arbeit macht frei.
4) We have arguably the worst social mobility in the first world. "Arguably" because it might be the second lowest - the UK might have the dubious honor of the worst. Either way, we're near the bottom. Being proud of the US for social mobility is like being proud of London for the sunny weather.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
When it's under-performing, it's nice to revel in its successes, but not at the price of ignoring its failures.
The foreign counsel is absolutely in the right. His work ethic is good for him, his family and his society. Yours is not.
In the 1950s, the "Organization Man" was seen as the exemplar of the model employee. One of the characteristics of the organization man was that he put family first, put in a 40-hour week and took pride in his professional and personal accomplishments. The organization man built America into the greatest society to live in on Earth, and he maintained it until the 1970s.
Honestly, I find this viewpoint to be incredibly unhealthy.
I'm amused because this may be the first time I have ever seen the culture of attorneys and billable hours cited as a form of virtue.
It's rather Puritan.
Yeah. I take pride in the quality of my work, and I have put in long hours without a thought to finish a project.
This guy seems to equate hours worked as a virtue in and of itself. It sounds like he's drunk the kool-aid at his firm. I mean, being proud of working seven days a week and getting upset because someone wants to take the weekend off shows a massive loss of perspective, no matter how good the money.
Well, the thing is that most people do like to be active and work to accomplish things of worth. The problem is when you fetishize work in of itself.
You're missing the fact the more hours you work the more money you bring in. Not all professions do this. In some cases you either can't get access to overtime or you're not paid for it anyway. That's the benefit to being a lawyer which can fairly lucrative, your average worker doesn't have that unless they can somehow become management or find a method to get rich quick (i.e. Chris Hardwicke, Mark Zuckerberg, J.K. Rowling). That's not even getting into union troubles with companies and worker rights disputes.
One interesting thing I've heard from more than a few Europeans who work with Americans is that this is exactly true. Europeans show up to work, put their noses to the grindstone and go home at 5.
Americans who work in European offices come into their offices come in early, stay later, spend a lot more time socializing/goofing off/procrastinating and end up getting less work done. They also get upset when called on it, because they are focused more on the hours they worked than the quality of their work product.
Incidentally, one of the chief criticisms of the billable hour is that the more work=more money dynamic actively incentivizes against finding more efficient ways of doing the job. Even if the lawyers are working hard for all of those hours, they are doing so in an environment where the hours worked are fetishized.
People like the OP would show contempt to anyone who tries to figure out a way to do the same tasks with less time and less work, because they've been conditioned to see the hours they've worked - and the money they've cost the client - as a virtue in and off itself.