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Religion-dunno if it's me or it
TheMadHuntsman
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Registered User regular
Hey guys, not sure what to really say here, but I thought I'd reach out on here... I've just been feeling remarkably far away from God. Obviously this isn't a religious forum per se, but for those that have faith-have you ever been in a crisis like this? Where you go to church, then leave, and all feelings of a connection to God just fadea away? This gnawing emptiness in my heart where I used to feel something deep, and meaningful? For a little background, I've been trying to get back to God-and I dunno. I just feel like it's hard to believe now I guess, like I'm not one of "them"-even though I want to be. I feel almost vindictive towards religion at times...but I had some legitimate experiences and want them back. Anyone else know that feel?
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What you're feeling is not unique. I say that not to minimize it or belittle its significance, but just to reassure you that you're not alone - this isn't something wrong with you that nobody else experiences. I myself strongly can strongly empathize with what you're going through. There are definitely times, more times than I would like to admit, when my faith seems like so much frustrating baggage to me - the wrongs carried out in the past and still today in my faith's name, the puzzlement and ridicule of an unbelieving world, the (in my view) misplaced priorities and petty squabbles among many of my fellow believers. When you sit in church and feel like you don't belong and you aren't sure if the problem is you or the people around you or both but suspect it's probably both and you're tempted to despair.
One thing I would stress (and please don't take this as judgment or condemnation because I don't know anything about your spiritual life beyond what you've said here) is that you're making a mistake if you're counting on going to religious services to sustain a feeling of connection and communion with God. I think corporate worship with other believers is vital, but the sum total of your spiritual life can't be one service for an hour on Sunday morning, or even a service on Sunday morning and another on Wednesday night and another and another and another. It's become a cliche, but your relationship with God has to be personal and cultivating that relationship requires personal action on your part, like any other relationship. Make time for God during the week when you aren't at church. What is your prayer life like? Take a walk and spend some time really praying. I don't just mean asking God for things but really talking to him, telling him about how you feel and the doubts you're having. Some people just don't have the type of personality which allows them to often feel especially "moved" by what normally takes place in a church service - maybe loners by nature in other aspects of their lives, they have an easier time feeling close to God "one on one." I would definitely place myself in this category.
Some other things I would suggest you keep in mind. First, just as in any relationship between human beings, there are going to be times when you just don't "feel it." There's no getting around that. The most happily matched couple in the world who love each other passionately and will stay together until death aren't going to feel "in love" with each other every minute of every day. Your relationship with God is no different. There will be times you doubt, times you feel far from God, like he isn't there, like he doesn't care, even like you don't care if he's there or not. Don't try to bury these feelings out of guilt. God perfectly understand human failings and wants to offer his forgiveness; he's not offended by honest doubt. Be honest with him and take your feelings to him in your prayers.
Second, following on from my previous point: while I don't intend to suggest this is what you meant when you referred to having had some real experiences, I would reject the idea that faith is something which can be based on a foundation of profound or deeply-felt emotional "experiences" or the expectation of having them. Faith is not a feeling. All feelings are temporary; that's not to say they aren't real, but they come and go. Faith is a matter of everyday life.
I wish I had more to say that I felt would be helpful. I don't offer any of this from any sort of perspective of authority; I make no claim to being "good" at what I've been talking about. I'm only trying to share some of my own conclusions and convictions based on my personal spiritual life, which has been marked be a lot of periods which seem similar to what you're going through.
I can't say that I recommend soliciting internet forums for help, and perhaps particularly not this one. I realize you may feel like you have nowhere else to turn, but with no offense meant to my fellow posters, I simply question how much support you're going to find here. The majority of posters on PA, in my observation, are apathetic to religion if not actively hostile towards it. I would echo Esh's recommendation that you talk to a priest/pastor/minister, if there's one you feel you can trust and talk to frankly. Even if you don't have that close a relationship with your minister, it may be worth having a talk anyway; people can surprise you in a positive way...yes, even in the church. If you have any good friends who are also believers (and I hope you do) I would share with them and get their support as well.
My advice to you: Go read the Bible front to back. REALLY read it, this time with a neutral eye. Don't assume anything about it like whether or not it's true, or whether or not "God is Good" or any other lesson your church teachers told you it meant. Just read it.
When I did, I was horrified. I have no idea how you'll react.
And religion is not something that you grow out of like training wheels on a bicycle. Reading the whole Bible is a great idea though. It may be worth pointing out that not everyone in the Bible is intended to be a good example for us. I don't think all of the bad examples are as obvious as Herod.
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You might want to browse the threads over on Reddit in the /r Atheism section. Theres a lot of folk there who know more about scripture than some people who've been through the seminary. If you can make it through that, then I'd say your belief structures are pretty solid.
Remember that faith is a lot like Baskin Robbins - there are over 500 flavors and we keep coming up with more. Don't be afraid to look at alternatives to your current group of religious adherence - maybe you agree with 75% and not so much the remaining 25%. Maybe theres a different sect of christianity that matches what you think 100%.
Religion is all about exploration...or at least it should be. Don't be afraid to put on your hiking boots and see whats out there.
Anyway, I would recommend maybe joining a small group if you can find one. It doesn't have to be super spiritual or somber or anything, the point is to have close friends that can support you in your faith. "A cord of three strands is not quickly broken" and all that, they'll be able to pick you up and help you with any difficulties you may (or do) face.
All of that being said, if you find that you truly don't believe anymore, but are just afraid to "come out" (so to speak) with friends, it can be difficult. On the other end it was difficult for me, partially because I was broadsided by it (I shouldn't have been, I was being naive). But, we are still close friends and still respect each other greatly. I pray for him on occasion, which possibly annoys him, but he doesn't really mind too much...afterall, he doesn't believe it will really *do* anything. But I recommend honesty with yourself and with your friends.
Not that I think that necessarily applies to you, I just wanted to cover my bases.
I find church services can be a bit shallow, because you can't make any real connection to other believers while sitting in a pew, and sermons have to be so short that they often do not make any deep points. To remedy this, most churches have bible study and prayer groups, which you might want to join to get a deeper experience.
Also try reading some religious books. I recommend CS Lewis's "The Screwtape letters" and "Mere Christianity." I find them very enriching and inspiring. They do address the doubts you have been having.
Perhaps you've run into an issue with feeling a disconnection between what your denomination is saying, and what you're feeling, and it's left you with the sense that you're outside looking in? Consider whether the church you've been attending is really teaching God's message. It's one thing to doubt your faith, and another thing entirely to doubt your church. My own exposure to evangelical worship drove me far from any church for more than a decade, but when I was ready to reconnect with God a new church practically found me.
Lastly, I'd offer you some more companionship in the "I'm not feeling connected to God" boat - I've been there before, and probably will again. If it helps to know, even the most Godly of us have these times of disconnect... for example, Mother Theresa wrote that she spent 50 solid years never feeling God's presence. Times of doubt fill the stories of the Saints and the Apostles. I think it's more than common... it's normal. Seek out ways to live God's teachings and read over Gaslight's post again... it's excellent advice.
You have to reconcile what your faith can and can't give you. Church is just a reminder of your faith, but it should weave throughout your life and how you live it. If you don't make an effort to do so, it won't. This isn't to say you need to go all fundy on things, but actively think of the person you want to be for your faith and strive to make the daily connections to being that. You also may want to focus more on the "spirit" of the faith than the word, as that's probably what really resonates with you. Also, give yourself up for it a bit, work in a soup kitchen or do some sort of Habitat build or similar. The more you give, the more you get; even if you do end up seeking a different path, at least you did some good, eh?
Good luck.
Religion/faith is not for everyone. Not that I disagree with exploring more of your religion before making this decision, but there's really nothing wrong with exploring a skeptical viewpoint as well.
It's not very helpful of you to throw in that persecution complex either.
At the risk of getting solidly offtopic, I'm not feeling persecuted, it's not a complex, and I'm not the first person in the thread to point out the nature of these forums. If you're feeling skeptical about the truth of my comment, feel free to join us over in D&D where the anti-religious vibe is strong and common. Anyhow, OP says he's had good experiences in the past, but now is out of touch with his faith and finding it a challenge to get that feeling back. "Maybe you should stop trying" is some advice, that's true, but IMHO it's not really in line with his request.
I don't believe that the OP has to go one direction or the other, I simply encourage them to explore different paths with an open mind. Either more religion or no religion, there is no wrong decision here.
I really don't see the point of you claiming these forums are hostile to religion. How does that help the OP?
The big key, in my opinion, is a community. It helps everyone else, and as long as it's not blind faith, you can gain interesting insight from discussion with others. Sometimes what you're looking for is a different way of practicing your faith. Perhaps a different church. Maybe a different branch of your religion (particularly applicable to Christianity). Everyone is different and everyone worships and practices in their own way. No two people are going to agree on an exact way to worship/hold faith, even less so in a congregation, especially less so in a widespread church.
I can also say that if you need to step back and look around for a while, do it. You don't gain anything by going through the motions without believing the motions. And I say this as a religious person.
It definitely takes work to get through this sort of thing, but it's all worth it. No matter where you end up, it'll be because you got there yourself, and your beliefs will be that much more personal because of it. You aren't alone in wanting to question things, and odds are you aren't alone in the things you believe either.
Oh fuck no
This is a terrible idea. All it will teach you is that atheists are self-congratulatory dicks engaged in a continuous circle-jerk about who has the dumbest Christian parents/facebook friends. I don't think that the people who post there are bad people, but when all you see is one facet of a group of people, that's the impression given off. You don't see hundreds of instances of people who live normal happy lives, and occasionally they chuckle at some anti-religion thing they find and post it, you just see hundreds of "hurr religion" posts.
I mean, I'm as atheist as they get, and I browse r/atheism sometimes out of boredom, but I'd never advocate it as a way for someone dealing with a faith crisis to see how the other half lives. My journey from faith was actually pretty similar to yours, except I never felt a sense of loss. I grew apart from my church, and for a long time I believed there probably was a God but he wasn't doing much in obvious ways, so he was probably just a conscious force of nature or some benevolent entity watching the cosmos, rather than a literal creator/father figure.
It was a long time before I realized I was holding on to any idea of God out of fear of hell. Once I admitted that to myself I was able to enjoy life a lot more, and see the beauty in both nature and man-made objects without do the mental contortions required to praise God for the space shuttle or a sunrise.
Obviously, I'm trying a little to evangelize here, but belief is a funny thing - no matter how you try you can't believe in something you don't, or stop believing in something you do. If you believe there's a God and you're just feeling a bit of separation anxiety, there are plenty of posts here with good advice, and you're no less of a person for having faith (despite what r/atheism would say). But if you have doubts about God or trouble reconciling the bible with modern science, I urge you to at least think them through on your journey.
The immediate reaction of a large segment of the people on these forums, upon reading a post like the OP's, is basically (paraphrasing of course), "What you're feeling is for the best, religion sucks anyway, just forget about it." I'm frankly surprised it took as long for those replies to start coming in as it did. The people who hold this viewpoint are of course perfectly entitled to it, and everyone has some sort of bias. Still, the simple fact is that this forum is not really a good place to look for objective, balanced and supportive advice on a subject like this, the biases of a majority of its vocal members being what they are. If I was a politically liberal person questioning my political beliefs, I wouldn't go someplace like FreeRepublic for advice, and if I was a conservative having a crisis of conscience I wouldn't appeal for counsel on Daily Kos or Democratic Underground.
I will point out that the OP specifically directed his questions to other members here who hold religious beliefs. Of course, it's an open forum; some non-religious people chiming in to suggest he consider other alternatives is to be expected, and I'm sure many (if not all) of those doing so are sincerely trying to help the OP the only way they know how, but I do think the tone of some of the anti-religion posts has been rather tacky and at times vaguely insulting.
IANAM (I am not a mod), but I would suggest that if all of us are really primarily concerned with helping the OP, we would offer our advice respectfully, without gratuitously denigrating opposing points of view, and understanding that this should not be seized upon as an opportunity for attempting to "convert" the OP to one's own way of thinking. Just because the OP is currently feeling disenchanted with his religion does not necessarily mean he has either the desire or convictions to abandon religion altogether. Conversely, I as a religious person know from the OP's post that he attends a church of some sort and believes in the existence of God, but there are innumerable specific theologies, denominations, and religious creeds he could subscribe to, and I'm not going to try to convince him of the truth of the particular one to which I adhere just because I know the basic facts that he is a theist and attends religious services.
The bottom line is that it does the OP no real good for any of us to use this as an opportunity to trumpet the superiority of our respective positions or have a debate on the relative merits of religion and atheism, or who is persecuting whom; if the OP is at all interested in any of that, there's no shortage of resources on the internet and elsewhere he could consult.
I've said my piece as a person of faith, and offered the OP as much advice as I feel I can based on the information he's provided and my own convictions and experiences. In the interest of not turning this thread further into a foodfight, I will say no more.
Who is doing what you are saying here? I don't see anyone attempting to convert anyone else. I was merely suggesting that the OP need not feel ashamed if they so choose to follow a non religious path. There is no correct choice. I believe I made this clear. I find your insinuations somewhat patronizing.
Gaslight, has ANYONE really been hostile? Other than spool of course? Just because something is in opposition to your beliefs doesn't mean we're hostile to you guys personally. And going "Well, he intended his post only to be replied to by Christians" is no good, man. For one, he didn't say that in his opening post. We're giving honest advice based on our own experiences, but of course, the persecution complex rears it's ugly head. I should have known better than to say anything. *rolls eyes*
He needs to be honest with himself first and foremost, and whether or not that gets him to move on from his faith is up to him.
Hell, I'm 30 and I'm still at times struggling with my religious beliefs in relation to my secular thoughts. It's a thing that happens, to just about everybody out there who stops to think. I faced my original religious crisis by going through all of the other ones. I picked up every book that I could and tried to teach myself about the other religions of the world (and being a teenager in the mid/late 90s, i got stuck on wicca/paganism for a while. It's a phase that almost all of my friends went through as well). I tried to teach myself about Christianity, and Hindu, and Islam. But I never got very far. I was deeply too close to my Judaism.
Now, at the ripe old age of 30, I identify myself as a jew. I hold my religion close to myself, but it's not the religion of my parents, or even the Judaism that I was raised with. It's my own, a stronger blend of the cultural traditions mixed with bits here and there of the spirituality. I say my prayers in my way, in my time, I keep my own version of Kosher like I have been since I turned 13. And while I would like to one day raise my children to know Judaism, it's not going to be all that they know.
It's a personal journey. You might find that you really just don't mesh with the beliefs of your parents. You might beliefs of your own. You might do what i did for a while and smash all kinds of religions together into one unbelievable mishmash of thought, belief, and spirituality (I used to thank the Rain God (Grandfather Heno) for Rain, I would occasionally say a prayer to Athena when studying, and I would often talk to the constellations in the sky as a means of clearing my head at night, all while still keeping slight kosher). Or, you might find out that it's really not for you, you can't wrap your head around it and that an agnostic/atheist/secular way of life is better for you.
Religion is so unbelievably personal that nobody can really tell you how to feel about it, or what is right or wrong or in between. That is for you to discover on your own.
Best of luck to you on this journey.
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Yep!
Regardless, I'm not sure how this could be used as substantiation that this forum is hostile to religion in general. Why is this even important in terms of assisting the OP? I posit that the matter need not have been brought up in the first place.
No one has been hostile except spool. Spool, stop it. This is your warning. No one has done what you're talking about in this thread and while it does happen in D&D everyone posting here should note that this is NOT D&D, and please check your defensiveness and derision for the opinions of others at the door here.
There will be no debate of this topic or belittling of another's view beyond this point. Please feel free to continue leaving topical stories about your experiences with your faith and other things that actually answer the OP's question WITHOUT attacking anyone else while doing so. If you cannot do that you should reconsider posting in this thread in the future.
What you are experiencing is something that is often faced by all people sharing a faith. Talk to your minister/priest/imam/whoever is ni charge of your particular religion about it. You will learn that this particular challenge is something of a recurring one.
Do i dare suggest reading Saint John of the Cross ? Dark Night of the Soul is an incredible read, even if you're not a religious person.
It actually is for many people.
If the president had any real power, he'd be able to live wherever the fuck he wanted.
To say that something is grown out of is to suggest, whether you intend to or not, that leaving that thing behind is a sign of greater maturity. Unless you actually mean to say that people who follow a religion are children living in a fantasy then "grow out of it" is a bad phrase to use.
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My wife and I now go to a non-denominational community church with a great pastor, who does an awesome job of connecting the dots between the Bible and every day life in the real world. I agree that the relationship with God is a personal one and going to church is not required, but I think that being a part of a faith community is really important as well. Having a 'spiritual home' can really help your journey a lot. For me, the change in venue helped my grow my faith a lot.
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
I'm 17 years old and a Methodist, and yes, this is a bit of the "doubt your childhood church" dealio some of you guys have mentioned. This all started in a sense back in the day, probably at 14 or 13-I went from a period of relative ignorance of the Bible to reading the Old Testament; when I read the accounts of the horrors God apparently ordered, I started to doubt the fundaments of my faith. Over time I accepted the premise that the Bible was humanly written and divinely inspired; still, though, doubts continued as to His existence and the feelings I had. I read about the use of electrodes and sensory deprivation to recreate UFO experiences and that fuled it further-could I be sure that my feelings of communion were anything more but a specific connection between nuerons? Was God a placebo? For a while I tried to just ignore it and move on, or jst power through with prayer, but it didn't work out.
The parental aspect is also strong here: my parents always told me to find my own way, but my mother IS fairly devout-whenever she said anything about Jesus or meeting in heaven or prayer and I felt almost guilty, like I was living a double life. A few times, I felt inclined to experiment and move outside, but that guilt-that feeling that to explore other faiths was to betray God-never really went away, and so I never really have fully tried to experience another creed beyond reading about them (and yes, I've read quite a bit, from the Amish to Zoroastrians [or Zarathustrians, whatevs]).
Recently I've been feeling stronger in my faith, and I feel like I've reconnected a bit to God, just by trying to be a more moral and considerate person (andyes, definitely in part to the advice in this forum). It's not quite as intellectually founded as I want yet but for the moment I'm content. I'm going to keep looking around different denominations and sects of Christianity first, but the Sufis have always looked cool. I'm not sure I'll ever really be a Bible Thumper or a door-to-door pamphleteer, but things are looking up a bit.
And no, I'm not gonna discount the advice you all have given me just because I feel like I'm on a bit more solid theological ground: if anything, further exploration will build me up, or at the least, lead me further to the truth. Thanks again XD
1.) Happy Christian Never Considering That It May Be Not True
2.) Older, More Intelligent, Started Looking At Things More Critically, Handwaved Stuff I Didn't Like ("Bah, No Way Would A Loving God Tell His People To Do This.)
3.) Doubts Started to Creep In, Trouble Reconciling Problem of Evil, Ultimately Ignore Doubts
4.) Curious About Where It All Came From, Troubled By Differences Between Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, And Islam (It's The Same God, Right? Why Does Hell Exist In Christianity And Not Judaism Since Everything Christianity Is Sprouted From It?)
5.) Became more "Pantheistic" Seeing Organized Religion For What It Was. (God is Beyong Understanding By Humans, Is Existance Itself, And All Of Us Are Linked By It And To It
6.) Epiphany. There Is Truly No Evidence For My Beliefs, Or Of The Supernatural, Including God. All Miracles Can be Explained By Coincidence And Chance. Discovered Truth That The Origins of Judeo-Christians Religions, And By Extension, All Religions, Were Completely An Invention Of Men
7.) Anguish, See Pale Blue Dot For First Time. Realizes Man Nor Earth Have Any Inherent Meaning Or Purpose
8.) Reconciliation, Second Epiphany. Realize That We Do Not Have Inherent Purpose Except For That We Make Ourselves, And That Morality Isn't Coded Within Old Books And Laws. Evolve Into Ubermensche.
I lingered with a thinly defined and abstract form a "God" for the longest time. I was lying to myself. I wasn't a Christian anymore, just some sort of spiritual pantheist, but wouldn't admit it to myself. It was a long and painful journey to where I am now, where I make my own purpose, destiny, and morales. Yeah, we just rot in the ground when we die, so it's even more important we spend life as best we can.
As far as we know, we only get one chance at this. Make it count.
You are a person, and that person that you are chooses to believe (or not believe) certain things. Those beliefs are part of you, they are not what makes you.
You can have a fantastic life with religion, or you can have a fantastic life without religion. The quality of your life, ethics, and morals, and the presence or lack of religion are independent variables of one another.
The new testament however fits a lot better with the kind of lives people are living today and I think has a much better message at its core. Be a good person, don't judge others, try to live as jesus lived and find the good in others so that you can become closer to God (not religious, haven't read the bible in awhile, but this seems to be part of the message)
You could try reading the new testament over again, carefully, and do some community service with your church. Many of my religious friends and relatives feel much closer spiritually to God and Jesus when they give back to the community. One friend says she feels that its her duty as a christian to help those less fortunate than herself because its what Jesus did. You might find it more fulfilling than just going to church (but maybe you already do service stuff)
good luck!