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[Electronics and Labor] - Everyone needs to listen to this story by This American Life
Melkster
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So I just listened to this thought-provoking podcast by This American Life. Here's the link: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory
The story is all about this factory in Shenzhen, China. It's a huge factory, run by a huge corporation, Foxconn. And at this massive factory, more than 300,000 Chinese workers make iPhones, iPods, and other electronic gadgets. Odds are, my very own iPhone was made there.
And at this humongous factory campus, there are nets on every tall building. These nets are located just below the roof. Why does Foxconn need nets on every building? Well, to prevent their workers from committing suicide, of course.
It's not hard to see why Foxconn workers would want to commit suicide: A 12 hour working day is standard, and often goes much longer than that. And those long hours aren't easy given oppressive workplace rules, like not being permitted to talk or sit down. And if you somehow manage to mentally survive that somehow, you get to deal with repetitive stress injuries and dangerous chemicals. And since you might have started working at age 12, the long hours and repetitive tasks will probably destroy your hands before you turn thirty.
Oh, and since it's China, don't even think about joining a labor union. You go to jail for a long time for that.
So yeah, go listen to the story. And then come here and talk about it, maybe. Here are the two big questions I have been mulling over since listening to the story myself:
- Should I continue buy electronics that weren't made in countries with solid labor protections? How can I buy an electronic device that was pretty much built upon the backs of the poor? Is it even possible to buy electronics that weren't made in sweat shops?
- There's an argument that says it's okay that sweat shops exist in other countries, because sweat shops are a slightly better existence than their previous horrible lives. And also, sweat shops also lead to a middle class and a more educated, wealthier people or whatever. Is this argument valid? Does this made it okay for me to buy an Apple product?
Also, This American Life posted a follow-up message in their blog, here: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog/2012/01/a-response-to-the-news-from-apple
The story is all about this factory in Shenzhen, China. It's a huge factory, run by a huge corporation, Foxconn. And at this massive factory, more than 300,000 Chinese workers make iPhones, iPods, and other electronic gadgets. Odds are, my very own iPhone was made there.
And at this humongous factory campus, there are nets on every tall building. These nets are located just below the roof. Why does Foxconn need nets on every building? Well, to prevent their workers from committing suicide, of course.
It's not hard to see why Foxconn workers would want to commit suicide: A 12 hour working day is standard, and often goes much longer than that. And those long hours aren't easy given oppressive workplace rules, like not being permitted to talk or sit down. And if you somehow manage to mentally survive that somehow, you get to deal with repetitive stress injuries and dangerous chemicals. And since you might have started working at age 12, the long hours and repetitive tasks will probably destroy your hands before you turn thirty.
Oh, and since it's China, don't even think about joining a labor union. You go to jail for a long time for that.
So yeah, go listen to the story. And then come here and talk about it, maybe. Here are the two big questions I have been mulling over since listening to the story myself:
- Should I continue buy electronics that weren't made in countries with solid labor protections? How can I buy an electronic device that was pretty much built upon the backs of the poor? Is it even possible to buy electronics that weren't made in sweat shops?
- There's an argument that says it's okay that sweat shops exist in other countries, because sweat shops are a slightly better existence than their previous horrible lives. And also, sweat shops also lead to a middle class and a more educated, wealthier people or whatever. Is this argument valid? Does this made it okay for me to buy an Apple product?
Also, This American Life posted a follow-up message in their blog, here: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog/2012/01/a-response-to-the-news-from-apple
Melkster on
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It's China, so yeah, pretty much. Or they'll just disappear enough people to scare the rest.
It's valid in as much as people aren't being forced with the threat of violence or imprisonment to work.
China isn't using sweatshop labor as we understand it from places like Singapore or Bangladesh. They're using slave labor.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Don't buy Apple folks.
"We have reserves."
Chinese Foxconn workers threaten mass suicide over Xbox layoffs
China's Foxconn workers: from suicide threats to a trade union?
Ultimately, I think we need to recognize that simply by living in the first world we are unavoidably complicit in the subjugation and exploitation of people who usually exist outside of our sphere of consciousness. We can choose not to support the most egregious violations of human dignity that we are aware of, but negative action can only go so far. And, short of living completely off the grid, we will always enjoy certain conveniences or savings that are causally connected to somebody getting fucked over.
Hmm.
I do understand and in part accept the point about sweatshops, while also noting that the rise of sweatshops was a key driver for reform of workplace H&S law and other related employment concepts in many countries, my own included. I am still not quite sure where the right line is on this point
I do feel that people hold false expectations that you can just go in there, or stop buying the stuff, and the problem will get fixed immediately. There is no patience or understanding that drastic social change like that will take generations to resolve, and will need to come from inside rather than outside influences. If we are not buying cheap xboxes, other countries will. And honestly, people don't WANT to pay what stuff really costs. Every time the "iPad is too expensive, if it cost 200 bucks less maybe" or "PS3 599 lol" stuff comes up, I wonder how people would feel if these things were priced at a level where sustainable western world wages were paid to every person along the line.
And moving all this work back to a place with proper labor laws straight up fucks China's chances of seeing an empowered working class any time soon.
While in no way do I condone the exploitation of the people in China, you have to be dense to think that you don't contribute to the exploitation, just by the very nature of us sitting on our computers, passing through all the network infrastructure to reach this server, so that we can make dick jokes on the internet.
And that doesn't even get into the shoes, clothes, microwaves, car parts, transistors, generic drugs... the list goes on.
Not buying "Made In China" is a pointless, bordering on impossible endeavor, and may cause more global harm than good if it got traction.
Also, the nets on the buildings is a bad image, sure... but did you know that Foxconn Workers actually commit far LESS suicide than the Chinese national average.
Just sayin'
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
You have no idea of what you're talking about, and nobody should listen to you.
Well it would be possible to have things like iphones without charging too much more and giving the workers reasonable wages and workplace safety standards, but apple would have to pay executives much less and make far less in profits
Right, and we've seen exactly this happen in Singapore and Taiwan in the 20th century.
Basically, your choices are "electronics made in really bad sweatshops" or "electronics made in kinda bad sweatshops."
This sounds like a shitty choice, but it's actually not as bad as it sounds. As long as wealthy countries support countries with labor laws and better-than-awful working conditions, there's incentive for countries to continually improve their working conditions.
Apple has announced that they're now going to open up their supply chain to independent review by a fair trade organization, which is pretty awesome, frankly. If they stick to that promise - and I don't see why they won't - then they're doing pretty good.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/20/143975840/new-law-aims-to-shine-light-on-conflict-metals
That's part of the regulations that have come about because of Dodd-Frank. Apple was actually one of the first to sign up to the certified smelter program, which has tried to combat the inflow of conflict minerals into smelters.
It's kind of funny to see OMG APPLE IS HORRIBLE when they have been one of the- if not the most- proactive companies in trying to remove conflict minerals from their supply chain.
Yes, I know all about it: I've written papers on the subject. Apple was one of the first companies to sign up for the conflict-free smelter program, which combats the problem on a smelter-by-smelter basis.
I don't know how you think the global market for raw ore works, but Apple doesn't source its metal ores from individual mines, nor do they process the ore into metal.
Yeah, the NPR article focuses on Apple, but that doesn't mean Apple is any worse than other electronics manufacturers...
...or for that matter, manufacturers of clothes, shoes, toys, or pretty much any other cheap mass-produced consumer item.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This may go hand in hand that people in the US don't get paid ... equal wages to the economic output of the country. Which, of course, are often the result of companies like Apple who outsource to make cheaper products.
Resulting -- :rotate:
1. Hiring employees in other countries and them treating them like absolute shit, but pay them just enough so maybe their children might have a slim chance at a better life someday
2. Not hiring employees in other countries at all, leaving them to their destitution and resulting in them and their children never having a chance at a better life someday
...Then obviously I'd choose option #1. But I suspect that that's a false dichotomy. It seems really presumptuous of us to think that if we Americans weren't there hiring people, they'd never have a chance at a better life.
Why can't we just treat employees ethically? Cut it down to a 10 hour workday with more breaks, and rotating shifts so people aren't doing the EXACT same thing for years on end. Don't hire children. Pay workers a living wage. Cut down on the militaristic rules. In other words, actually CARE about these people.
If Chinese industries making products for the Chinese want to treat their own people like shit, that's fine -- that's on them. But American companies ought to be held to a higher standard.
Same problem with conflict minerals. American companies now have to verify their entire supply chain, so the price of minerals sourced from the Congo has collapsed. Guess who's buying them at cut-rate prices? Chinese firms.
What happens if the supplier refuses to comply with your expectations?
Just refuse to buy from them? Sometimes that works. Sometimes the people who you were trying to protect get fired and end up going back to subsistence farming, prostitution, theft, or begging.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I'm wondering that too. Is this just one factory or is it a complex of factories and sites? Either way it has to be the size of a large town.
Import tax up the dick?
Read the Wired article I linked earlier, it gives a good walkthrough of the place. Or at least if that is the same article I remember, it does.
It is a town unto itself. Complete with apartments, coffee shops, etc. Employees don't leave (not to say they can't... not really sure there. Just that they don't need to).
Found the source and they call it a tech park, not a factory. So very possible.
That's got little to do foreign companies selling cheaper goods in the US because they're out-competing American companies since they can't use cheap labor. Tax the dick out of the goods not being produced in the US so it looks better to produce American goods with American labor.
It has everything to do with it. Putting tariffs on goods outside of the provisions of the WTO treaties (and labour standards are outside the provisions of the WTO treaties) will mean major fines paid by the US government and retaliatory tariffs on US goods.
In these kinds of situations the employees are there, the city/complex/whatever, to work and only work. Their employer provides a bunk and food. It is quite common for the bunks to be used in shifts and shared with people who have schedules opposite their own.
It is fucking crazy what they put up with.
What do we export?
Dakka.
Those exist. There's a subgroup of the UN called the International Labor Organization that has been successful in getting some international standards passed. Obviously there are issues related to monitoring, enforcement, and the standards aren't very tough yet. But it's a start that we can build on. It includes basic rights like "no forced labor," "work towards abolishing child labor," and "workers get to collectively bargain."
I don't understand why Apple draws so much of the criticism on this front. Not that they are blameless. But in many ways, compared to the rest of the tech industry, they are right at the forefront with respect to monitoring suppliers, publishing their results, and imposing sanctions. Have a look at their supplier responsibility page where they publish their results. If I remember coverage of this year's CES correctly, as of 2012 Apple is naming specific companies for violations (something pushed for in the This American Life podcast) and they have stopped doing business with one supplier for not putting a proper age verification system in place.
Again, I'm not saying they are perfect. But if you are going to buy a computer from any company and are concerned about labor practices (or the environment), Apple should be one of the top places to look at.
Also, remember that most of those 300,000 people actually live there too.
And yeah, I work at a university, one of the largest in the United States. ~65k students, faculty, and staff. And I can't even begin to imagine 300,000...
I think it might help to remember that there are VERY few machines in these factories. In these factories, the laborers ARE the machines. So pretty much these campuses are just giant places where they can get as many people together as possible to make iPhones, etc, in mass.