You don't need an oil empire to avoid buying used games. You just need to not buy used games. Now if you're buying so many games that buying new would bankrupt you, then the price difference of new vs used, is probably not your biggest problem.
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Idx86Long days and pleasant nights.Registered Userregular
edited January 2012
I didn't go through the entire thread, but my personal mantra is to never pay full price. I will always wait for a sale, or the game to get cheap enough in the used market. Notable exception this year will be Diablo 3.
If it's a great deal to buy a new game (I bought a new copy of Alan Wake for something like $5 a few months ago), then I'll do it. Likewise, if the game is so cheap in the used market vs. buying new, then that's the direction I'm going. I like my monies and stretching my dollar. EA thought they would stop me by disabling multiplayer functionality on their sports games when buying used, but I was already in the pattern of buying Madden X minus 3 years, where X = latest release to save money.
Short of a console not physically playing used games, nothing will stop me. And if the 720 DOES somehow prevent you from playing used games, then my journey toward the dark side exclusive PC gaming will be complete.
Idx86 on
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
You don't need an oil empire to avoid buying used games. You just need to not buy used games. Now if you're buying so many games that buying new would bankrupt you, then the price difference of new vs used, is probably not your biggest problem.
That's really not hard. Seriously. I could destroy my paycheck by walking into a games store (well, not as easily as walking into a store with tabletop stuff, but still).
Only buying new is kind of...well...nice, but not exactly financially viable for a lot of folks. As a working adult, I can't knock shopping used from time to time. I'm not that naive or financially comfortable. The video game industry isn't special and already gets away with murder, I find it very very hard to sympathise with their bitching.
Only buying new is kind of...well...nice, but not exactly financially viable for a lot of folks. As a working adult, I can't knock shopping used from time to time. I'm not that naive or financially comfortable. The video game industry isn't special and already gets away with murder, I find it very very hard to sympathise with their bitching.
You often don't spend that much more on buying new in my experience. By the time a game's selling for used for $10, the price has dropped considerably on new copies as well. Patience is the key either way, if one really wants to save money then they should be patient and wait for the price to drop.
Only buying new is kind of...well...nice, but not exactly financially viable for a lot of folks. As a working adult, I can't knock shopping used from time to time. I'm not that naive or financially comfortable. The video game industry isn't special and already gets away with murder, I find it very very hard to sympathise with their bitching.
You often don't spend that much more on buying new in my experience. By the time a game's selling for used for $10, the price has dropped considerably on new copies as well. Patience is the key either way, if one really wants to save money then they should be patient and wait for the price to drop.
You don't need an oil empire to avoid buying used games. You just need to not buy used games. Now if you're buying so many games that buying new would bankrupt you, then the price difference of new vs used, is probably not your biggest problem.
That's really not hard. Seriously. I could destroy my paycheck by walking into a games store (well, not as easily as walking into a store with tabletop stuff, but still).
Only buying new is kind of...well...nice, but not exactly financially viable for a lot of folks. As a working adult, I can't knock shopping used from time to time. I'm not that naive or financially comfortable. The video game industry isn't special and already gets away with murder, I find it very very hard to sympathise with their bitching.
Again, I see this not as a problem with the cost of new games, but self control. If the new vs used decision is based on not having enough to pay your bills or buy food because the 5$ to 15$ more you'd spend on a new copy of the game isn't financially viable then maybe you're trying to buy too many, but without knowing what you make each month and how many you buy and what kind you buy that's just a guess.
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
Most of my shiny new game purchases are on XBLA. While I still get one to three major releases a year, I'll easily buy ten to fifteen on XBLA in a twelve month period.
You don't need an oil empire to avoid buying used games. You just need to not buy used games. Now if you're buying so many games that buying new would bankrupt you, then the price difference of new vs used, is probably not your biggest problem.
That's really not hard. Seriously. I could destroy my paycheck by walking into a games store (well, not as easily as walking into a store with tabletop stuff, but still).
Only buying new is kind of...well...nice, but not exactly financially viable for a lot of folks. As a working adult, I can't knock shopping used from time to time. I'm not that naive or financially comfortable. The video game industry isn't special and already gets away with murder, I find it very very hard to sympathise with their bitching.
Again, I see this not as a problem with the cost of new games, but self control. If the new vs used decision is based on not having enough to pay your bills or buy food because the 5$ to 15$ more you'd spend on a new copy of the game isn't financially viable then maybe you're trying to buy too many, but without knowing what you make each month and how many you buy and what kind you buy that's just a guess.
I don't get that, tbh. If buying used saves me enough money to buy another game/hobby element while not touching my budget for things like food/fuel/etc? Then I see no problem with it. I'm not going to deny myself a smart buy for the sake of misplaced morality or whatever. If I do pass on a 2nd hand deal it'll be for practical reasons.
Most of my shiny new game purchases are on XBLA. While I still get one to three major releases a year, I'll easily buy ten to fifteen on XBLA in a twelve month period.
Oh yes. In 2010 I spent more on XBLA than retail titles. Last year I spent more on Steam when I got a PC and my Xbox collected dust, but that goes without saying.
Only buying new is kind of...well...nice, but not exactly financially viable for a lot of folks. As a working adult, I can't knock shopping used from time to time. I'm not that naive or financially comfortable. The video game industry isn't special and already gets away with murder, I find it very very hard to sympathise with their bitching.
You often don't spend that much more on buying new in my experience. By the time a game's selling for used for $10, the price has dropped considerably on new copies as well. Patience is the key either way, if one really wants to save money then they should be patient and wait for the price to drop.
Sales (yay Steam!) are pretty awesome, yup.
After a certain point it's not even sales, but just general, all around price drops. Look at any used game at Gamestop, and then compare it with the price of the new game from Amazon. The price difference isn't that great.
I tried to post this to the game forums over at 38 but it went down mid-post so I thought I could illicit some meaningful debate here. I also pulled a classic noob error by posting in a new thread instead of here. Naughty doggy, no biscuit!
Normally I don’t participate in online discussions as the flames and trolling are too much of a hassle to deal with. But this topic is something that means a lot to me and so I would like to post something in the hope that it brings some idea as to why this particular topic of new vs used creates such heat.
To start off I would like to say to the Developers that "I get it!" and really, I do. You take a big risk making a game and it takes a huge amount of time, effort and love to get it out into the world. You do it for the love of it and also, in the end, to get paid. This is what you do and you deserve to be paid for doing it. I understand this because I too work for a living and want to be fairly compensated for what it is I do. I want people to buy my product because, the more people that buy it, the more profit I make and the higher my reward. So I get it.
Now let’s look at it from the consumer / customer side. You make something and want to sell it to me. I want what you are selling and so, taking my hard earned cash from my job, I pay you your asking price and you sell me your product. What I do with it from that point on is my business. Provided I don’t attempt to pass it off as my own or do something illegal with it (such as pirate it for profit or otherwise or pass ) I am free to do with it what I wish, including doing something with the product the producer never intended. Simple so far.
Here is where the problem starts. I, as a consumer, am now finished with using your product and wish to recoup at least some of my costs, by selling the game onwards to someone else, as is my right. You, as a producer, seem to see this as a 'lost sale' in that you don't see any profit from that transaction despite the fact that it is a legitimate option on the part of your customer.
Maybe I, as a customer, sell my game back to the retail outlet that sold it to me who in turn sell it on at close to the price of a full game. That really doesn’t seem fair but it is. I am selling my ownership and rights back to the retailer who, as the new owner, is free to do with it what they wish, including doing something with the product the producer never intended. In this case, selling it on for their exclusive profit.
You, the producer, don’t like this. When a used copy is placed on a rack next to a new one and the price is lower consumers will, naturally, go for the lower cost. Especially as, aside from packaging, there is no discernible difference between the new and used ones. So how do you propose to combat this? You decide to offer purchasers of new product a "freebie" that purchasers of used content have to pay for. By doing this you incentivise potential purchasers looking at the new vs. used rack to buy "new" but what you have also done, perhaps unintentionally, is devalue the used copy at the expense of your customer. The retailer, realising they can no longer sell the used copy for as much, drastically lowers the price they will sell a used copy for thereby rescuing the price they will pay for any used copy. They may not even buy the used copy back at all as they now realise nobody wants it as it is missing the "free" content that is only available as new.
I, as your customer, feel like you have not played fair with me. You have my money, you made your profit off me, and now you want to deprive me of the ability to sell on my paid for property at a reasonable price. The retailer doesn’t care. They continue to make a profit whether someone buys new or used. The margins on used may have been higher but no so much as they would really care too much. The only person who truly loses out on the deal is I, your customer.
There are other options available to you that you may want to consider. Perhaps some sort of agreement with your distributers for a slice of the used market if they wish to sell your product new, or something that allows individuals to sell the product on to other individuals via an online marketplace where you could perhaps take a small percentage of the trade?
Unfortunately there is always an option for consumers. They can either not buy your product, in which case everybody loses or they can simply pirate the game and get everything, DLC included, for "free", in which case you lose out and the customer feels justified in doing so as you were out to screw them out of their money (and ability to recoup same) anyway so they may as well screw you!
I know that’s not what you want. It’s not what we want. We want you to be rewarded, just not at our expense.
You don't need an oil empire to avoid buying used games. You just need to not buy used games. Now if you're buying so many games that buying new would bankrupt you, then the price difference of new vs used, is probably not your biggest problem.
If that's how you want to live, fine, but preaching it to others from atop a high horse makes you a goose.
I get that if I were only buying one game that buying used at Gamestop doesn't seem to be a great deal, but I'm a cheapskate and like others wait for b2g1 free sales...so in that case if I'm looking at $20 retail new games...
I can pay $32 and get three normallly $20 games (17.99 used x 2 - 10% Gamestop card discount) instead of the $60 new cost. That's significant enough that I'm going to do that instead of buy new.
Of course, that's assuming you can even FIND a new copy of a 3 year old title...stores often aren't even going to have that new copy of Bayonetta that I'm picking up used...and it's even worse in the handheld market. I know I could find one online, but I like to go browse and see what I've missed.
It's not really a financial decision in that I can't afford new games, I just get much more bang for my buck in the used market. I do buy new games when there is an online community I want to play with (I bought Mario Kart 7 new as well as Mortal Kombat), but for single player games I always have too much in my backlog anyways, so I don't mind waiting until I can get more for my money.
I haven't read this thread through (I'm waiting for a huge install on my computer at work), but to me, I'm a fan of new for a few reasons...
1) most of my friends buy new. If I buy used, it means I wait, in which they have moved on from the multiplayer aspect.
2) Amazon tends to offer credit that makes the buying a little more tolerable.
3) I cannot tell you how many times I've ran into people not marking their spoilers, even when I wasn't looking for the game.
With that said, I do rent a lot, and I am pretty selective of what I do buy. I probably buy seven or eight games, all year, at full price, and I've been doing it comfortably financially.
I haven't bought a used game in a few years. I do sometimes trade games with my friends. I have such a backlog that I tend to wait a few months for game to go down in price/on sale. Just by paying attention to CheapAssGamer I've gotten some good deals (Skyrim for 20 dollars).
I personally don't think buying used (Especially Gamestop) is a much better deal sometimes, but if it lets you develop your hobby more than buying used go for it.
I haven't bought a used game in a few years. I do sometimes trade games with my friends. I have such a backlog that I tend to wait a few months for game to go down in price/on sale. Just by paying attention to CheapAssGamer I've gotten some good deals (Skyrim for 20 dollars).
I personally don't think buying used (Especially Gamestop) is a much better deal sometimes, but if it lets you develop your hobby more than buying used go for it.
Yeah. Borrowing does help. I have a friend who MUST own every game he plays. He refuses to rent or borrow a single game. Same guy also does not make great financial decisions.
I, as your customer, feel like you have not played fair with me. You have my money, you made your profit off me, and now you want to deprive me of the ability to sell on my paid for property at a reasonable price. The retailer doesn’t care. The margins on used may have been higher but no so much as they would really care too much.
This is completely untrue.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
I haven't bought a used game in a few years. I do sometimes trade games with my friends. I have such a backlog that I tend to wait a few months for game to go down in price/on sale. Just by paying attention to CheapAssGamer I've gotten some good deals (Skyrim for 20 dollars).
I personally don't think buying used (Especially Gamestop) is a much better deal sometimes, but if it lets you develop your hobby more than buying used go for it.
Yeah. Borrowing does help. I have a friend who MUST own every game he plays. He refuses to rent or borrow a single game. Same guy also does not make great financial decisions.
I should go through my collection and get rid of some of my physical copies of games which I'll never play again. They just kind of sit there.
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
Buying used was something I did when I was a poor college student. I wanted to play games but didn't have enough money for new+food. I needed entertainment, but didn't want to get cable. I'd been playing video games my whole life, and it was--and still is--a cheap distraction.
I support buying used, even though I don't do it anymore. It's not piracy. It's not theft. It's media, and we have some really strange ideas about what we do with certain types of media.
Like, why can I go to the library and read the latest bestsellers for free, but god forbid I borrow a movie or buy a used video game? It's just funny to me how we segregate these types of media.
Also, someone said they'd never seen a national chain like gamestop for movies/cds, and there used to be a bunch of them (suncoast used to do it alot, same with music stack, etc), but then there used to be a bunch of music stores, too. Distrubtion changes as consumption changes.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
I, as your customer, feel like you have not played fair with me. You have my money, you made your profit off me, and now you want to deprive me of the ability to sell on my paid for property at a reasonable price. The retailer doesn’t care. They continue to make a profit whether someone buys new or used. The margins on used may have been higher but no so much as they would really care too much. The only person who truly loses out on the deal is I, your customer.
There are other options available to you that you may want to consider. Perhaps some sort of agreement with your distributers for a slice of the used market if they wish to sell your product new, or something that allows individuals to sell the product on to other individuals via an online marketplace where you could perhaps take a small percentage of the trade?
Unfortunately there is always an option for consumers. They can either not buy your product, in which case everybody loses or they can simply pirate the game and get everything, DLC included, for "free", in which case you lose out and the customer feels justified in doing so as you were out to screw them out of their money (and ability to recoup same) anyway so they may as well screw you!
I know that’s not what you want. It’s not what we want. We want you to be rewarded, just not at our expense.
If you're selling your used game back to a retailer then it is you who is treating you unfairly. Well, you and that retailer who gave you peanuts for your used game and then sold it for its slightly inflated actual used value. There's really nothing stopping you from calling up eb/gamestop, asking for the used price of Game X, then listing the game on craigslist/kijiji/local_news_paper_ad for $5 less than the price they give you.
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I believe I heard someone explain this once. If online prices are much cheaper, brick and mortar stores will be quite pissed off. And apparently some will refuse to carry the item. Not sure how true this is, but it sounds right all things considered.
I should go through my collection and get rid of some of my physical copies of games which I'll never play again. They just kind of sit there.
I've found an excellent solution to this. More than a few instances of mistreatment/asshattery towards me from GameStop swore me off them for the rest of time. As such, the herd was growing fat.
The solution? One of those big CD album things. Now, instead of shelves of cases, I have one massive "book". I call it "The Tome". When I play a game I say "Fetch me The Tome!"
...And then I get up and go get it because I live alone.
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I believe I heard someone explain this once. If online prices are much cheaper, brick and mortar stores will be quite pissed off. And apparently some will refuse to carry the item. Not sure how true this is, but it sounds right all things considered.
I could definitely see that as a reason why. Already, Best Buy and several other stores have been trying to figure out ways to combat the whole "A showroom for products to be bought online." I never even really though about that point.
Of course, it's still not a good reason. People who like physical media will still get that rather than save five dollars.
Also, Skull, that's a very good space saving idea for both my game and DVD collection. Although I couldn't part with some of the cases for my DVDs.
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I believe I heard someone explain this once. If online prices are much cheaper, brick and mortar stores will be quite pissed off. And apparently some will refuse to carry the item. Not sure how true this is, but it sounds right all things considered.
Yeah, I've heard this a number of times from People Who Probably Know, and it makes sense. Brick and Mortar stores tend to be fairly territorial when it comes to pricing.
And can we please, please abandon the 'well you can buy a used car!' analogy? The degradation of physical versus digital goods has been brought up already, but it's a valid point. You pay significantly less for a used car because, well, driving a car around tends to make it more likely to break down and require costly repairs. It's not really a good place from which to start your argument.
I also tend to think (and I'm not saying this with any particular insight, the kinds of decisions about these sorts of things are made about a dozen levels above me :P) that the push against used games comes less from used games as a whole, and more specifically in regards to companies that are extremely aggressive when it comes to used games.
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I believe I heard someone explain this once. If online prices are much cheaper, brick and mortar stores will be quite pissed off. And apparently some will refuse to carry the item. Not sure how true this is, but it sounds right all things considered.
Yeah, I've heard this a number of times from People Who Probably Know, and it makes sense. Brick and Mortar stores tend to be fairly territorial when it comes to pricing.
And can we please, please abandon the 'well you can buy a used car!' analogy? The degradation of physical versus digital goods has been brought up already, but it's a valid point. You pay significantly less for a used car because, well, driving a car around tends to make it more likely to break down and require costly repairs. It's not really a good place from which to start your argument.
I also tend to think (and I'm not saying this with any particular insight, the kinds of decisions about these sorts of things are made about a dozen levels above me :P) that the push against used games comes less from used games as a whole, and more specifically in regards to companies that are extremely aggressive when it comes to used games.
Used games do degrade. Not in the same way, but if I buy 007 Bloodstone now instead of back when it launched there's a very good chance that I'm never going to be able to play multiplayer because the experience degrades with time. The game is absolutely worth less the longer it's been out.
I, as your customer, feel like you have not played fair with me. You have my money, you made your profit off me, and now you want to deprive me of the ability to sell on my paid for property at a reasonable price. The retailer doesn’t care. The margins on used may have been higher but no so much as they would really care too much.
The margin on used is 46.8% profit and on new is 21.3%. so ~25% difference.
So if used sales translated into new sales (unrealistic, but so is the chance of the used market simply vanishing) then the net effect is effect on gamestops bottom line is 2.037 billion as opposed to 2.434 billion.
Hmm. Actually, it is a big deal. Almost 400 million.
Ok. Consider me corrected on that score. Obviously we should be holding out for more margin on our trade ins. Still, destroying gamestops margins at the cost of my ability to resell my own property is not fair. So my original argument stands.
That's not really true. Let's say I buy Star Fox 3DS for $35 new. I decide it's not for me and trade it into Gamestop. The current trade in is $15 and a few weekends ago my store was offering a 50% bonus on trades. That gives me $15 + 60% bonus for the store deal and my rewards card for $24 trade.
Yes, your copy of Gears of War is now worth a quarter - but if you're an educated consumer you can do well with trades of most games. It's just about waiting for the right timing.
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I believe I heard someone explain this once. If online prices are much cheaper, brick and mortar stores will be quite pissed off. And apparently some will refuse to carry the item. Not sure how true this is, but it sounds right all things considered.
Yeah, I've heard this a number of times from People Who Probably Know, and it makes sense. Brick and Mortar stores tend to be fairly territorial when it comes to pricing.
And can we please, please abandon the 'well you can buy a used car!' analogy? The degradation of physical versus digital goods has been brought up already, but it's a valid point. You pay significantly less for a used car because, well, driving a car around tends to make it more likely to break down and require costly repairs. It's not really a good place from which to start your argument.
I also tend to think (and I'm not saying this with any particular insight, the kinds of decisions about these sorts of things are made about a dozen levels above me :P) that the push against used games comes less from used games as a whole, and more specifically in regards to companies that are extremely aggressive when it comes to used games.
Used games do degrade. Not in the same way, but if I buy 007 Bloodstone now instead of back when it launched there's a very good chance that I'm never going to be able to play multiplayer because the experience degrades with time. The game is absolutely worth less the longer it's been out.
And that's a fair comment. Let me clarify my point. The period in which 'used games = murder' is generally applied to is the month or two after release. I don't think the game experience significantly degrades in that particular window. You can still find people to play with - I'd say even as far as 6-8 months after release, but that's not always true.
Outside of that particular time period, of course, I don't think most publishers have any particular issue with the used games market. It's the push to drive up used numbers within that time period that is, generally speaking, what people are talking about when they discuss whether or not the used games market harms developers.
Obviously, I'd always prefer it if people buy new. But when you buy used versus new is certainly a valid thing to discuss, as most of what's sold outside of that period is going to be pretty minimal all-in-all - with exceptions, of course (Mario games, CoD until the next one comes out, etc.)
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I believe I heard someone explain this once. If online prices are much cheaper, brick and mortar stores will be quite pissed off. And apparently some will refuse to carry the item. Not sure how true this is, but it sounds right all things considered.
Yeah, I've heard this a number of times from People Who Probably Know, and it makes sense. Brick and Mortar stores tend to be fairly territorial when it comes to pricing.
And can we please, please abandon the 'well you can buy a used car!' analogy? The degradation of physical versus digital goods has been brought up already, but it's a valid point. You pay significantly less for a used car because, well, driving a car around tends to make it more likely to break down and require costly repairs. It's not really a good place from which to start your argument.
I also tend to think (and I'm not saying this with any particular insight, the kinds of decisions about these sorts of things are made about a dozen levels above me :P) that the push against used games comes less from used games as a whole, and more specifically in regards to companies that are extremely aggressive when it comes to used games.
Used games do degrade. Not in the same way, but if I buy 007 Bloodstone now instead of back when it launched there's a very good chance that I'm never going to be able to play multiplayer because the experience degrades with time. The game is absolutely worth less the longer it's been out.
SOME used games degrade and really only the ones with a multiplayer aspect that relies on external servers and a certain number of users currently active in the base to make it worth playing.
My copy of Harvest Moon is still as fun to play now as it was back in whenever-the-fuck-I-bought-it.
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I believe I heard someone explain this once. If online prices are much cheaper, brick and mortar stores will be quite pissed off. And apparently some will refuse to carry the item. Not sure how true this is, but it sounds right all things considered.
Yeah, I've heard this a number of times from People Who Probably Know, and it makes sense. Brick and Mortar stores tend to be fairly territorial when it comes to pricing.
And can we please, please abandon the 'well you can buy a used car!' analogy? The degradation of physical versus digital goods has been brought up already, but it's a valid point. You pay significantly less for a used car because, well, driving a car around tends to make it more likely to break down and require costly repairs. It's not really a good place from which to start your argument.
I also tend to think (and I'm not saying this with any particular insight, the kinds of decisions about these sorts of things are made about a dozen levels above me :P) that the push against used games comes less from used games as a whole, and more specifically in regards to companies that are extremely aggressive when it comes to used games.
Used games do degrade. Not in the same way, but if I buy 007 Bloodstone now instead of back when it launched there's a very good chance that I'm never going to be able to play multiplayer because the experience degrades with time. The game is absolutely worth less the longer it's been out.
Depends on the game and how you play it. Magicka will be just as fun for me in 5 years as it is now, because I only play it with friends. Skyrim will be far more valuable 5 years from now, due to the wide variety of mods available and the series of bugs Bethesda will fix in that time.
One way for the industry to combat the used market would be to have their New Prices degrade as the value of the game does. I've seen that more lately.
spool32 on
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
And your copy of Magicka will never need a $2500 transmission repair, so the analogy is stupid.
That's not really true. Let's say I buy Star Fox 3DS for $35 new. I decide it's not for me and trade it into Gamestop. The current trade in is $15 and a few weekends ago my store was offering a 50% bonus on trades. That gives me $15 + 60% bonus for the store deal and my rewards card for $24 trade.
Yes, your copy of Gears of War is now worth a quarter - but if you're an educated consumer you can do well with trades of most games. It's just about waiting for the right timing.
So your argument is seriously wait for all the stars to align in the house of the merchant and then sell only first party titles from a publisher/console/franchise which is notorious for price retention?
Alright I'll change my argument: Trade-ins at any retailer are highway robbery except if you're extremely lucky or only happen to like games that are worth a lot over time anyway and even then you're only barely getting a fair trade.
I mean, we're pretty much only talking about console disc releases, aren't we? Digital content is doing very well. It's the discs that are the dinosaur, here.
I love my xbox, but I've kind of stopped buying brand new games for it. I cannot pinpoint one exact reason. Either it's cause I'll just wait for a GoTY edition (like I did for LA NOIRE), or it's cheaper/easier to get on direct download (steam games). I got skyrim for xmas because my father asked me if I wanted it (he bought me oblivion when I got my 360 all them years ago). I mean, I'm thinking about buying KoA:R, but that's just because of the insane buzz here.
Also, as an asside, do they really need to produce a new madden every year? Couldn't they just do a buy it once for 60, then every new year is 20 or so?
This coming from a guy who buys every new COD. However, I probably wouldn't even do that without the group of guys I play with.
I mean, we're pretty much only talking about console disc releases, aren't we? Digital content is doing very well. It's the discs that are the dinosaur, here.
I love my xbox, but I've kind of stopped buying brand new games for it. I cannot pinpoint one exact reason. Either it's cause I'll just wait for a GoTY edition (like I did for LA NOIRE), or it's cheaper/easier to get on direct download (steam games). I got skyrim for xmas because my father asked me if I wanted it (he bought me oblivion when I got my 360 all them years ago). I mean, I'm thinking about buying KoA:R, but that's just because of the insane buzz here.
Also, as an asside, do they really need to produce a new madden every year? Couldn't they just do a buy it once for 60, then every new year is 20 or so?
This coming from a guy who buys every new COD. However, I probably wouldn't even do that without the group of guys I play with.
Sports games are an odd beast. They're often more than just roster updates (regardless of what the common 'gamer logic' is), but it's mostly added on modes and features around a core that, by necessity, can't really change much from year to year. NHL 2010 (or maybe 2011? I can't remember) was a significant and substantial upgrade on 2009. I think it's mostly a case of 'people are buying it, why mess with a good thing?' than anything else. The same people who bought a sports game one year will buy it the next year. The people who didn't, probably wouldn't even if you made significant changes.
I don't know. I tend to buy every two years, but I'll buy consecutive years if the next one is a major upgrade on the previous version.
You don't need an oil empire to avoid buying used games. You just need to not buy used games. Now if you're buying so many games that buying new would bankrupt you, then the price difference of new vs used, is probably not your biggest problem.
If that's how you want to live, fine, but preaching it to others from atop a high horse makes you a goose.
I know. The idea that you can buy new games exclusively without an oil empire is ludicrous.
the 'games degrade' argument is silly because i can take fantastic care of my games for years, but a company who is out to simply make money has really no interest in keeping my game library safe. valve/MS/sony can promise up and down whatever you want to hear but if they go out of business/get bought by another company, things can change over night. i know that i personally treat my games as what they are: expensive pieces of media. if the online mode is dead 4 months after launch then that isn't really degradation; it was just a bad online game. meanwhile i still play the original L4D all the time with my friends, a 3 year old game.
You don't need an oil empire to avoid buying used games. You just need to not buy used games. Now if you're buying so many games that buying new would bankrupt you, then the price difference of new vs used, is probably not your biggest problem.
If that's how you want to live, fine, but preaching it to others from atop a high horse makes you a goose.
I know. The idea that you can buy new games exclusively without an oil empire is ludicrous.
but it's also ludrcious to assume everyone can affford to buy new. i try to buy new to support games i love, but gaming is my hobby and if i want to try more than a few titles a year, i buy used or rent. just because we all can't afford to buy new, does that mean we have to miss out, even with cheaper alternatives right there?
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Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
If it's a great deal to buy a new game (I bought a new copy of Alan Wake for something like $5 a few months ago), then I'll do it. Likewise, if the game is so cheap in the used market vs. buying new, then that's the direction I'm going. I like my monies and stretching my dollar. EA thought they would stop me by disabling multiplayer functionality on their sports games when buying used, but I was already in the pattern of buying Madden X minus 3 years, where X = latest release to save money.
Short of a console not physically playing used games, nothing will stop me. And if the 720 DOES somehow prevent you from playing used games, then my journey toward the dark side exclusive PC gaming will be complete.
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That's really not hard. Seriously. I could destroy my paycheck by walking into a games store (well, not as easily as walking into a store with tabletop stuff, but still).
Only buying new is kind of...well...nice, but not exactly financially viable for a lot of folks. As a working adult, I can't knock shopping used from time to time. I'm not that naive or financially comfortable. The video game industry isn't special and already gets away with murder, I find it very very hard to sympathise with their bitching.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
You often don't spend that much more on buying new in my experience. By the time a game's selling for used for $10, the price has dropped considerably on new copies as well. Patience is the key either way, if one really wants to save money then they should be patient and wait for the price to drop.
Sales (yay Steam!) are pretty awesome, yup.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
You're much better off waiting for Amazon/Steam/other online retailer sales.
I'm not sure how I feel about Ebay used. Yes, the devs get nothing, but I'm also not giving money to Gamestop.
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Again, I see this not as a problem with the cost of new games, but self control. If the new vs used decision is based on not having enough to pay your bills or buy food because the 5$ to 15$ more you'd spend on a new copy of the game isn't financially viable then maybe you're trying to buy too many, but without knowing what you make each month and how many you buy and what kind you buy that's just a guess.
I don't get that, tbh. If buying used saves me enough money to buy another game/hobby element while not touching my budget for things like food/fuel/etc? Then I see no problem with it. I'm not going to deny myself a smart buy for the sake of misplaced morality or whatever. If I do pass on a 2nd hand deal it'll be for practical reasons.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Oh yes. In 2010 I spent more on XBLA than retail titles. Last year I spent more on Steam when I got a PC and my Xbox collected dust, but that goes without saying.
After a certain point it's not even sales, but just general, all around price drops. Look at any used game at Gamestop, and then compare it with the price of the new game from Amazon. The price difference isn't that great.
Hi all,
I tried to post this to the game forums over at 38 but it went down mid-post so I thought I could illicit some meaningful debate here. I also pulled a classic noob error by posting in a new thread instead of here. Naughty doggy, no biscuit!
Normally I don’t participate in online discussions as the flames and trolling are too much of a hassle to deal with. But this topic is something that means a lot to me and so I would like to post something in the hope that it brings some idea as to why this particular topic of new vs used creates such heat.
To start off I would like to say to the Developers that "I get it!" and really, I do. You take a big risk making a game and it takes a huge amount of time, effort and love to get it out into the world. You do it for the love of it and also, in the end, to get paid. This is what you do and you deserve to be paid for doing it. I understand this because I too work for a living and want to be fairly compensated for what it is I do. I want people to buy my product because, the more people that buy it, the more profit I make and the higher my reward. So I get it.
Now let’s look at it from the consumer / customer side. You make something and want to sell it to me. I want what you are selling and so, taking my hard earned cash from my job, I pay you your asking price and you sell me your product. What I do with it from that point on is my business. Provided I don’t attempt to pass it off as my own or do something illegal with it (such as pirate it for profit or otherwise or pass ) I am free to do with it what I wish, including doing something with the product the producer never intended. Simple so far.
Here is where the problem starts. I, as a consumer, am now finished with using your product and wish to recoup at least some of my costs, by selling the game onwards to someone else, as is my right. You, as a producer, seem to see this as a 'lost sale' in that you don't see any profit from that transaction despite the fact that it is a legitimate option on the part of your customer.
Maybe I, as a customer, sell my game back to the retail outlet that sold it to me who in turn sell it on at close to the price of a full game. That really doesn’t seem fair but it is. I am selling my ownership and rights back to the retailer who, as the new owner, is free to do with it what they wish, including doing something with the product the producer never intended. In this case, selling it on for their exclusive profit.
You, the producer, don’t like this. When a used copy is placed on a rack next to a new one and the price is lower consumers will, naturally, go for the lower cost. Especially as, aside from packaging, there is no discernible difference between the new and used ones. So how do you propose to combat this? You decide to offer purchasers of new product a "freebie" that purchasers of used content have to pay for. By doing this you incentivise potential purchasers looking at the new vs. used rack to buy "new" but what you have also done, perhaps unintentionally, is devalue the used copy at the expense of your customer. The retailer, realising they can no longer sell the used copy for as much, drastically lowers the price they will sell a used copy for thereby rescuing the price they will pay for any used copy. They may not even buy the used copy back at all as they now realise nobody wants it as it is missing the "free" content that is only available as new.
I, as your customer, feel like you have not played fair with me. You have my money, you made your profit off me, and now you want to deprive me of the ability to sell on my paid for property at a reasonable price. The retailer doesn’t care. They continue to make a profit whether someone buys new or used. The margins on used may have been higher but no so much as they would really care too much. The only person who truly loses out on the deal is I, your customer.
There are other options available to you that you may want to consider. Perhaps some sort of agreement with your distributers for a slice of the used market if they wish to sell your product new, or something that allows individuals to sell the product on to other individuals via an online marketplace where you could perhaps take a small percentage of the trade?
Unfortunately there is always an option for consumers. They can either not buy your product, in which case everybody loses or they can simply pirate the game and get everything, DLC included, for "free", in which case you lose out and the customer feels justified in doing so as you were out to screw them out of their money (and ability to recoup same) anyway so they may as well screw you!
I know that’s not what you want. It’s not what we want. We want you to be rewarded, just not at our expense.
Thanks for reading.
I can pay $32 and get three normallly $20 games (17.99 used x 2 - 10% Gamestop card discount) instead of the $60 new cost. That's significant enough that I'm going to do that instead of buy new.
Of course, that's assuming you can even FIND a new copy of a 3 year old title...stores often aren't even going to have that new copy of Bayonetta that I'm picking up used...and it's even worse in the handheld market. I know I could find one online, but I like to go browse and see what I've missed.
It's not really a financial decision in that I can't afford new games, I just get much more bang for my buck in the used market. I do buy new games when there is an online community I want to play with (I bought Mario Kart 7 new as well as Mortal Kombat), but for single player games I always have too much in my backlog anyways, so I don't mind waiting until I can get more for my money.
1) most of my friends buy new. If I buy used, it means I wait, in which they have moved on from the multiplayer aspect.
2) Amazon tends to offer credit that makes the buying a little more tolerable.
3) I cannot tell you how many times I've ran into people not marking their spoilers, even when I wasn't looking for the game.
With that said, I do rent a lot, and I am pretty selective of what I do buy. I probably buy seven or eight games, all year, at full price, and I've been doing it comfortably financially.
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I personally don't think buying used (Especially Gamestop) is a much better deal sometimes, but if it lets you develop your hobby more than buying used go for it.
Yeah. Borrowing does help. I have a friend who MUST own every game he plays. He refuses to rent or borrow a single game. Same guy also does not make great financial decisions.
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This is completely untrue.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
And somehow I think that the used thing will end once developers completely embrace digital content distribution. As in, not charge me 60 dollars for a game on Steam when the physical copy is also 60 dollars. I understand they have to make a profit but surely some discount is warranted.
I support buying used, even though I don't do it anymore. It's not piracy. It's not theft. It's media, and we have some really strange ideas about what we do with certain types of media.
Like, why can I go to the library and read the latest bestsellers for free, but god forbid I borrow a movie or buy a used video game? It's just funny to me how we segregate these types of media.
Also, someone said they'd never seen a national chain like gamestop for movies/cds, and there used to be a bunch of them (suncoast used to do it alot, same with music stack, etc), but then there used to be a bunch of music stores, too. Distrubtion changes as consumption changes.
If you're selling your used game back to a retailer then it is you who is treating you unfairly. Well, you and that retailer who gave you peanuts for your used game and then sold it for its slightly inflated actual used value. There's really nothing stopping you from calling up eb/gamestop, asking for the used price of Game X, then listing the game on craigslist/kijiji/local_news_paper_ad for $5 less than the price they give you.
Trade-ins at any retailer are highway robbery.
I've found an excellent solution to this. More than a few instances of mistreatment/asshattery towards me from GameStop swore me off them for the rest of time. As such, the herd was growing fat.
The solution? One of those big CD album things. Now, instead of shelves of cases, I have one massive "book". I call it "The Tome". When I play a game I say "Fetch me The Tome!"
...And then I get up and go get it because I live alone.
Of course, it's still not a good reason. People who like physical media will still get that rather than save five dollars.
Also, Skull, that's a very good space saving idea for both my game and DVD collection. Although I couldn't part with some of the cases for my DVDs.
Yeah, I've heard this a number of times from People Who Probably Know, and it makes sense. Brick and Mortar stores tend to be fairly territorial when it comes to pricing.
And can we please, please abandon the 'well you can buy a used car!' analogy? The degradation of physical versus digital goods has been brought up already, but it's a valid point. You pay significantly less for a used car because, well, driving a car around tends to make it more likely to break down and require costly repairs. It's not really a good place from which to start your argument.
I also tend to think (and I'm not saying this with any particular insight, the kinds of decisions about these sorts of things are made about a dozen levels above me :P) that the push against used games comes less from used games as a whole, and more specifically in regards to companies that are extremely aggressive when it comes to used games.
No. Find the figures here: http://www.1up.com/news/gamestop-report-reveals-profit-margins
The margin on used is 46.8% profit and on new is 21.3%. so ~25% difference.
So if used sales translated into new sales (unrealistic, but so is the chance of the used market simply vanishing) then the net effect is effect on gamestops bottom line is 2.037 billion as opposed to 2.434 billion.
Hmm. Actually, it is a big deal. Almost 400 million.
Ok. Consider me corrected on that score. Obviously we should be holding out for more margin on our trade ins. Still, destroying gamestops margins at the cost of my ability to resell my own property is not fair. So my original argument stands.
That's not really true. Let's say I buy Star Fox 3DS for $35 new. I decide it's not for me and trade it into Gamestop. The current trade in is $15 and a few weekends ago my store was offering a 50% bonus on trades. That gives me $15 + 60% bonus for the store deal and my rewards card for $24 trade.
Yes, your copy of Gears of War is now worth a quarter - but if you're an educated consumer you can do well with trades of most games. It's just about waiting for the right timing.
And that's a fair comment. Let me clarify my point. The period in which 'used games = murder' is generally applied to is the month or two after release. I don't think the game experience significantly degrades in that particular window. You can still find people to play with - I'd say even as far as 6-8 months after release, but that's not always true.
Outside of that particular time period, of course, I don't think most publishers have any particular issue with the used games market. It's the push to drive up used numbers within that time period that is, generally speaking, what people are talking about when they discuss whether or not the used games market harms developers.
Obviously, I'd always prefer it if people buy new. But when you buy used versus new is certainly a valid thing to discuss, as most of what's sold outside of that period is going to be pretty minimal all-in-all - with exceptions, of course (Mario games, CoD until the next one comes out, etc.)
SOME used games degrade and really only the ones with a multiplayer aspect that relies on external servers and a certain number of users currently active in the base to make it worth playing.
My copy of Harvest Moon is still as fun to play now as it was back in whenever-the-fuck-I-bought-it.
Depends on the game and how you play it. Magicka will be just as fun for me in 5 years as it is now, because I only play it with friends. Skyrim will be far more valuable 5 years from now, due to the wide variety of mods available and the series of bugs Bethesda will fix in that time.
One way for the industry to combat the used market would be to have their New Prices degrade as the value of the game does. I've seen that more lately.
So your argument is seriously wait for all the stars to align in the house of the merchant and then sell only first party titles from a publisher/console/franchise which is notorious for price retention?
Alright I'll change my argument: Trade-ins at any retailer are highway robbery except if you're extremely lucky or only happen to like games that are worth a lot over time anyway and even then you're only barely getting a fair trade.
I mean, we're pretty much only talking about console disc releases, aren't we? Digital content is doing very well. It's the discs that are the dinosaur, here.
I love my xbox, but I've kind of stopped buying brand new games for it. I cannot pinpoint one exact reason. Either it's cause I'll just wait for a GoTY edition (like I did for LA NOIRE), or it's cheaper/easier to get on direct download (steam games). I got skyrim for xmas because my father asked me if I wanted it (he bought me oblivion when I got my 360 all them years ago). I mean, I'm thinking about buying KoA:R, but that's just because of the insane buzz here.
Also, as an asside, do they really need to produce a new madden every year? Couldn't they just do a buy it once for 60, then every new year is 20 or so?
This coming from a guy who buys every new COD. However, I probably wouldn't even do that without the group of guys I play with.
Sports games are an odd beast. They're often more than just roster updates (regardless of what the common 'gamer logic' is), but it's mostly added on modes and features around a core that, by necessity, can't really change much from year to year. NHL 2010 (or maybe 2011? I can't remember) was a significant and substantial upgrade on 2009. I think it's mostly a case of 'people are buying it, why mess with a good thing?' than anything else. The same people who bought a sports game one year will buy it the next year. The people who didn't, probably wouldn't even if you made significant changes.
I don't know. I tend to buy every two years, but I'll buy consecutive years if the next one is a major upgrade on the previous version.
I know. The idea that you can buy new games exclusively without an oil empire is ludicrous.