If you've watched his games, you can see that a lot of the time he just straight up kills Protoss players with ling roach pushes off three or four bases. He will often split his force and attack the third and natural simultaneously to try to stretch the Protoss player's multitasking and force a mistake. If the Protoss player is playing safe and he can't finish the game there, he'll pull back, throw up his spine wall and go for infestor/broodlord.
If you've watched his games, you can see that a lot of the time he just straight up kills Protoss players with ling roach pushes off three or four bases. He will often split his force and attack the third and natural simultaneously to try to stretch the Protoss player's multitasking and force a mistake. If the Protoss player is playing safe and he can't finish the game there, he'll pull back, throw up his spine wall and go for infestor/broodlord.
Ironically, this was the state of ZvP around the time of the roach range buff where everyone was looking for roach/ling timings on exposed thirds. I think the difference here is the refinement getting to that point and the refinement transitioning out of it.
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Has no commentators pounced upon that? It seems so... obvious.
And since protoss players often rely on forcefields to not lose midgame engagements, attacking them in 2 spots at once makes it hellishly hard to defend sometimes.
Hey, those PvZ rates pretty much mirror my ladder experience!
A little depressing.
But you guys made most good points already, ff's, weak units until symmetry is reached and so on.
I dont know how to fix it.. Buff units, make warp gate tier 2-3 research from robo/robobay?
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
If you've watched his games, you can see that a lot of the time he just straight up kills Protoss players with ling roach pushes off three or four bases. He will often split his force and attack the third and natural simultaneously to try to stretch the Protoss player's multitasking and force a mistake. If the Protoss player is playing safe and he can't finish the game there, he'll pull back, throw up his spine wall and go for infestor/broodlord.
asdljkghakljdfgjkl this sounds really hard to time T T
if I could just play vT and vZ life would be so much simpler
If you've watched his games, you can see that a lot of the time he just straight up kills Protoss players with ling roach pushes off three or four bases. He will often split his force and attack the third and natural simultaneously to try to stretch the Protoss player's multitasking and force a mistake. If the Protoss player is playing safe and he can't finish the game there, he'll pull back, throw up his spine wall and go for infestor/broodlord.
asdljkghakljdfgjkl this sounds really hard to time T T
if I could just play vT and vZ life would be so much simpler
Can anyone explain how MC seems to counter his style every time they play? What is it he does different from other P's?
MC has devastating timing pushes that Stephano can rarely hold, and he usually goes into the mid-lategame with an economic advantage because of it. Otherwise, he just has really good multitasking that Stephano can't punish like he does with weaker Protoss and awesome forcefield control.
Reminder: Sign up at here for the Penny Arcade Team League, and someone remind Dover to put that link and my description of the league from p. 1 into the OP.
Still need some captains; PM me if you're interested. I probably won't be checking the forums again today till late.
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more details about the new gsl off the record show
first guest drg, first half of the show is q and a, second half is drg playing with viewers on the na server
at 4am gmt T.T
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
So I'm guessing that show will be in English? As it's meant for a "global" audience. Would also make sense why DRG was the first guest, as his English is really good.
Now don't take this as gospel, but I have almost never lost to a terran who is meching, even if he is 200/200 vs my 200/200. I can just trip guardian shields, and the feedback/storm/collosus just completely melts a mech army. You can even attack into sieged tanks, and trade evenly.
Mech is very very bad outside of timing attacks vs protoss. Now sky terran... that's something I don't think we've seen much of, but I feel it's way more potent than mech.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Now don't take this as gospel, but I have almost never lost to a terran who is meching, even if he is 200/200 vs my 200/200. I can just trip guardian shields, and the feedback/storm/collosus just completely melts a mech army. You can even attack into sieged tanks, and trade evenly.
Mech is very very bad outside of timing attacks vs protoss. Now sky terran... that's something I don't think we've seen much of, but I feel it's way more potent than mech.
How do you figure? Phoenixes shit all over Vikings and Banshees, and Void Rays and Blink Stalkers absolutely murder Battlecruisers. And Storm would trash Viking/Banshee even worse than Mech because air units are fragile for their cost, and there's no splash damage in Sky Terran.
So I'm guessing that show will be in English? As it's meant for a "global" audience. Would also make sense why DRG was the first guest, as his English is really good.
Now don't take this as gospel, but I have almost never lost to a terran who is meching, even if he is 200/200 vs my 200/200. I can just trip guardian shields, and the feedback/storm/collosus just completely melts a mech army. You can even attack into sieged tanks, and trade evenly.
Mech is very very bad outside of timing attacks vs protoss. Now sky terran... that's something I don't think we've seen much of, but I feel it's way more potent than mech.
How do you figure? Phoenixes shit all over Vikings and Banshees, and Void Rays and Blink Stalkers absolutely murder Battlecruisers. And Storm would trash Viking/Banshee even worse than Mech because air units are fragile for their cost, and there's no splash damage in Sky Terran.
Three of the four units that constitute sky terran are extremely vulnerable to feedback, which is one of the main reasons that it isn't feasible.
He seems stuck on one vision of how to play the game. In an environment where scouting and information is the biggest part of the game, knowing your opponent will go ling-muta every game is a huge advantage.
In fairness Idra did try to do some different stuff a while back - I distinctly remember some pretty interesting drop play on... Crevasse, I think, where he engaged the main Protoss ball with ling/roach/corruptor while dropping like 16 hydras in the main to wreck production. It was fun as hell to watch but (I'd imagine) absurdly micro-intensive and coin-flippy; if you don't do some real damage to that deathball, the production you're taking out is irrelevant, as the P can just A-move in and mop up your reinforcements (presuming you weren't maxed and banking.)
He's done some stuff with Infestors - thinking specifically of the IEM Guangzhou finals against Puma (though that's obviously ZvT) where he kept like two infestors on a ledge above an expansion and killed every SCV there like four times. Unfortunately Infestors die immediately to Feedback so they're difficult to make work outside of IT hit-squads in ZvP.
What we almost never see out of Idra, and really should occasionally, is some good ol' fashioned cheese.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Well, on some level you have to respect IdrA for not cheesing. He doesn't like it, and doesn't think the game should be played that way, so he doesn't do it. From a pragmatic point of view, it's stupid, you should play to win...but from a principals point of view, it's respect worthy.
So I'm trying zenio's roachless ZvP that was featured on the daily last night and so far I'm about 50/50 w/l (which is actually much better than my old zvp). I've noticed a few things:
a) Because I'm trying to pick off the probe/zealots that get sent out to build the proxy pylon, I see other pushes coming. This is probably just a good thing to do in general, but because it's something I'm focusing on, I never forget.
b) I haven't actually gotten to mutas. I tend to lose/win with hydra/ling earlier than I'd be able to get to it.
c) Before, I used to get bent out of shape about losses (I think I was probably about 39% win rate) and not be sure why I lost. Now I can see why I lost and can shrug them off because it's a new strategy.
d) I don't know how to do the style against 1/3 gate expands.
I don't remember the last time I won a game vP where I didn't do a stupid all-in. I feel like pre-broodlords, every unit I have just evaporates against every protoss unit.
I'm not sure what I should be trying because nothing has worked. If there is a point in the game where I'm forced to fight, I'm dead. Remaxing doesn't help when 200/200 of anything dies without inflicting any casualties
I dont have much trouble against P
what league are you? because as a silver zerg I agree with you :P
I find this helps:
1) pre 200 food you need to have way more guys than him. if I die to stalker deathballs/pre-robo pushes I just dont have enough guys..
2) once colossi come out: dont be afraid to micro those hydras and focus down colossi. it can be done if theres just a few. otherwise you need air.
3) muta harrass works really well against toss
I definitely feel weak in that transition to broodlords--I don't do it quickly enough and you NEED them against the 200/200 toss army.
I spent hours last week watching Stephano replays/vods and people just seem to have less stuff against him than they do against me and I have no idea why.
I usually play better than the protoss, but they have forcefields, so that makes up for the talent gap. I wish zerg had a talent gap unit. Terran has marines, and toss has sentries for forcefields.
I usually play better than the protoss, but they have forcefields, so that makes up for the talent gap. I wish zerg had a talent gap unit. Terran has marines, and toss has sentries for forcefields.
If you play quick upgrades vs T, mass lings are the answer.
I usually play better than the protoss, but they have forcefields, so that makes up for the talent gap. I wish zerg had a talent gap unit. Terran has marines, and toss has sentries for forcefields.
mass FFs? basically you have to somehow have scouted that he made a shit ton of sentries, and get roach claws and burrow before speed.
i discovered something interesting last night... you can't burrow under minerals.....
I usually play better than the protoss, but they have forcefields, so that makes up for the talent gap. I wish zerg had a talent gap unit. Terran has marines, and toss has sentries for forcefields.
I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, but unless the T is up on bases, I almost never leave a ZvT. One good bane hit or tank snipe can turn any loss into a win. Microing against Ling Bane Muta is haaard and microing with it... isn't
or just turtle like it was 1999 while getting to 3, then 4, then 5 bases, never attacking and defending any attempts with FFs well.
yay mass cannons, yay
i came across this one guy who made a frigging maze of cannons from my base to his. i thought it was just your "normal" cannon rush, but the guy put them all over the place, and by the way he did it, it seemed to me that this was his normal way to play....
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I know what an SCV is, but what unit is MK? Because...you are talking about StarCraft right?
Ironically, this was the state of ZvP around the time of the roach range buff where everyone was looking for roach/ling timings on exposed thirds. I think the difference here is the refinement getting to that point and the refinement transitioning out of it.
And since protoss players often rely on forcefields to not lose midgame engagements, attacking them in 2 spots at once makes it hellishly hard to defend sometimes.
A little depressing.
But you guys made most good points already, ff's, weak units until symmetry is reached and so on.
I dont know how to fix it.. Buff units, make warp gate tier 2-3 research from robo/robobay?
asdljkghakljdfgjkl this sounds really hard to time T T
if I could just play vT and vZ life would be so much simpler
Can anyone explain how MC seems to counter his style every time they play? What is it he does different from other P's?
My strategy for this is to not be where his army is.
It sometimes works, but I'm bad.
Still need some captains; PM me if you're interested. I probably won't be checking the forums again today till late.
more details about the new gsl off the record show
first guest drg, first half of the show is q and a, second half is drg playing with viewers on the na server
at 4am gmt T.T
Comes on at a good time for me too, 8PM PST.
I'm pretty sure the only thing more efficient than 3/3 200 food toss is 3/3 200 food mech, and mech is so clunky it's just not feasible.
Mech is very very bad outside of timing attacks vs protoss. Now sky terran... that's something I don't think we've seen much of, but I feel it's way more potent than mech.
How do you figure? Phoenixes shit all over Vikings and Banshees, and Void Rays and Blink Stalkers absolutely murder Battlecruisers. And Storm would trash Viking/Banshee even worse than Mech because air units are fragile for their cost, and there's no splash damage in Sky Terran.
what mean pitchfork?
Three of the four units that constitute sky terran are extremely vulnerable to feedback, which is one of the main reasons that it isn't feasible.
In fairness Idra did try to do some different stuff a while back - I distinctly remember some pretty interesting drop play on... Crevasse, I think, where he engaged the main Protoss ball with ling/roach/corruptor while dropping like 16 hydras in the main to wreck production. It was fun as hell to watch but (I'd imagine) absurdly micro-intensive and coin-flippy; if you don't do some real damage to that deathball, the production you're taking out is irrelevant, as the P can just A-move in and mop up your reinforcements (presuming you weren't maxed and banking.)
He's done some stuff with Infestors - thinking specifically of the IEM Guangzhou finals against Puma (though that's obviously ZvT) where he kept like two infestors on a ledge above an expansion and killed every SCV there like four times. Unfortunately Infestors die immediately to Feedback so they're difficult to make work outside of IT hit-squads in ZvP.
What we almost never see out of Idra, and really should occasionally, is some good ol' fashioned cheese.
a) Because I'm trying to pick off the probe/zealots that get sent out to build the proxy pylon, I see other pushes coming. This is probably just a good thing to do in general, but because it's something I'm focusing on, I never forget.
b) I haven't actually gotten to mutas. I tend to lose/win with hydra/ling earlier than I'd be able to get to it.
c) Before, I used to get bent out of shape about losses (I think I was probably about 39% win rate) and not be sure why I lost. Now I can see why I lost and can shrug them off because it's a new strategy.
d) I don't know how to do the style against 1/3 gate expands.
I dont have much trouble against P
what league are you? because as a silver zerg I agree with you :P
I find this helps:
1) pre 200 food you need to have way more guys than him. if I die to stalker deathballs/pre-robo pushes I just dont have enough guys..
2) once colossi come out: dont be afraid to micro those hydras and focus down colossi. it can be done if theres just a few. otherwise you need air.
3) muta harrass works really well against toss
I definitely feel weak in that transition to broodlords--I don't do it quickly enough and you NEED them against the 200/200 toss army.
I find mutas shockingly effective against P considering I used them primarily for anti T pressure in SC1.
This is...beautiful.
Steam ID
I sometimes beat them if they use a relatively dumb strategy (all blink stalkers all the time no matter what).
I just about never win if they intelligently build an immortal count and an upgrade lead.
yay mass cannons, yay
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Yeah that's basically my experience. I think a passive macro toss is the hardest to play against.
I do the opposite, cause I'm a rebel.
If you play quick upgrades vs T, mass lings are the answer.
mass FFs? basically you have to somehow have scouted that he made a shit ton of sentries, and get roach claws and burrow before speed.
i discovered something interesting last night... you can't burrow under minerals.....
Joe's Stream.
spines
i wasn't making enough
it seemed silly to make like 6 so i would try to make only like 3 or 4 and die
but having that many does make a big difference, damn
edit: bumblebee.prime's games from code a earlier this week were pretty helpful
realised what i was doing wrong in general with this style, a better sense of how i should be playing and stuff
i dunno
I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, but unless the T is up on bases, I almost never leave a ZvT. One good bane hit or tank snipe can turn any loss into a win. Microing against Ling Bane Muta is haaard and microing with it... isn't
enjoyed that game but it seemed kinda dead so i gave up on it, with it being in mlg it should be revitalized
or maybe pick up scv since it's almost definitely in mlg as well
but on the other hand
staaaarrrrcraaaaafffftttttt
hrmmmmmmmmmmm
i came across this one guy who made a frigging maze of cannons from my base to his. i thought it was just your "normal" cannon rush, but the guy put them all over the place, and by the way he did it, it seemed to me that this was his normal way to play....
Joe's Stream.