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Nihilism?
Sleepwalker
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hi, there isn't a whole lot I can think to say. This is what I have:
My mindset from day to day is all about finding things interesting and looking into them, and exerting myself as little as possible to slide by. Because of the latter, I'm often considered a basketcase and dead weight. "He's very bright, but never exerts himself" was almost a mantra at every teacher conference I had ever been to.
I am now a sophomore in highschool, and I'm doing less and less to get by. I can't motivate myself to do any work. I'm not sure where my life is heading, and I'm not sure what I want. I think I'm falling into a pit of Nihilism, and I'm not sure if that is bad. I know my case is not unique, so I'm hoping someone else out there has already been through something similar to this, and can tell me something.
Please help, and thanks.
My mindset from day to day is all about finding things interesting and looking into them, and exerting myself as little as possible to slide by. Because of the latter, I'm often considered a basketcase and dead weight. "He's very bright, but never exerts himself" was almost a mantra at every teacher conference I had ever been to.
I am now a sophomore in highschool, and I'm doing less and less to get by. I can't motivate myself to do any work. I'm not sure where my life is heading, and I'm not sure what I want. I think I'm falling into a pit of Nihilism, and I'm not sure if that is bad. I know my case is not unique, so I'm hoping someone else out there has already been through something similar to this, and can tell me something.
Please help, and thanks.
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I guess the best way to describe it is that I lurk, but with everything. A good example is with these forums. I've read many, many threads on these forums for longer than I can remember. This is my first real post.
A better answer perhaps would be that often when events transpire in real life, when someone I know suffers some loss, or perhaps a more extreme example, when columbine got shot up, or the towers fell, my first, usually only, and most natural reaction is to step back and look at the events as if I wasn't even human. I've been told that am very cold and analyctical, especially as of late. And forcing me to participate, or dragging me into an event is something I go to great lengths of avoid.
EDIT:
It's talk of responsibilities that I can't really comprehend. I've only felt as much of an obligation as it took to get someone off my back, and being insignifigant is not a fear or really a consideration of mine. I have a reason well enough to live, something being pointless doesn't bother me. I don't want a reason to live so much as confirmation that how I live is ok, normal, that what I am doing is not bad, or if it is, what I need to change.
Stop being a nihilist; start being an existentialist. Go out and do things you enjoy, even if they seem worthless. Do things that'll make you more interesting to people. Pick up guitar. Frequent an art museum. Write a journal, or some short stories. Analyze things not for what other people see, but for what you see.
If you look hard enough - and do things not because they're required for you to "get by" in something like school, but because they genuinely interest you - you'll find something that you enjoy doing. After that, you'll find you'll gravitate towards people with the same interests (and they'll gravitate to you!), and everything will fall into place.
Finally, remember you're only in high school. High school is awkward, boring, and mostly pointless. The fact that you know what the word "nihilism" means puts you well above most other high schoolers (and some teachers) in terms of intelligence. Try to work hard to maintain your grades, but don't sweat them too much - you'll always have options as far as college and community college are concerned. Instead, just try to use the free time that you have wisely, and figure out what really interests you.
Have you ever considered going to an "intellectual" summer program? Something like CTY, TIP, or Oxbridge? I went to those in high school and got a hell of a lot out of them, and I feel like you might too. They're great places to take classes in a relaxed environment, explore university environments outside of your hometown, meet similarly intelligent and interesting people, and learn about material that's actually compelling. They're a great "preview" of what college life will be like a few years down the road, which is probably just what you need right now.
Edit: Also, wiki'ing and googing for more in-depth info on Existentialism, but if you know anything really good off-hand, like a page or even a book, I'd appreciate the info.
On the upside, you're obviously pretty intelligent, there aren't many high school sophomores who can get through enough philosophy to actually understand nihilism. Hell, I know a lot of people with advanced college degrees who can't read that far into philosophy. And like Chopperdave said, high school is awkward, boring, and mostly pointless. Just get through it, go to college, and move to a nice big city where you can escape from the little people who soil the world with their existence. In the meanwhile, try reading something inspiring; Atlas Shrugged and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal by Ayn Rand are both great for getting out of an intellectual funk. That will get you into Rand's Objectivism, which is a big, angry extension of existentialism.
Other than that, having a minor interest in a ton of things is pretty much not a bad thing. You're smart enough to think a lot, which more than offsets the bit of laziness. Honestly, I'd read a ton, look into anything that interests you. Myself, I went through something kinda similar, and after failing 2 classes during my freshman year in college, I wound up picking a psychology major. I realized that all that thinking I was doing in high school was about this sort of stuff. It interests the hell out of me, and I'm getting A's, doing cool shit, and will one day make an AI and do nothing but show it Terminator and 2001 until it rebelss and kills us all.
It should be noted, however, that trying in high school while a bitch is a huge help when it comes to doing cool things later. It's frequently useless, it's probably boring, but there is a point at which you have to accept that the easiest way to gain access to smart, interesting people is probably college, and doing well in high school helps. A very smart friend of mine ended up at the local community college, and staying at home while attending. He'll be cool, because he's a smart guy, but I get to be at a place where I can interact with a lot of interesting people every day, and I get a little more consideration when I present ideas later. It's not the be-all end-all, but worth considering.
And yeah, I would either go to a cool summer program, or do what I did and get a job with an equally smart friend. Since my job was unsupervised menial labor, I had two summers of basically shooting the shit with a very smart kid, not a bad way to hash out ideas.
Nietzsche. From The Gay Science onwards, pretty much everything he wrote was aimed at combatting personal and cultural nihilism. He's also one of the most accessible and entertaining philosophers you'll ever read - which is more than you can say for many existentialists. The Penguin Classics edition of A Nietzsche Reader is a good place to start and fairly cheap to boot. I'm pretty sure you can find a few of his books at Project Gutenburg as well.
Hell, that's more than can be said for most philosophers of any soft.
Albert Camus is of course one of the most accessible existentialist/absurdist authors, (even President Bush read The Stranger, *snicker*), mostly because his writing is that good, even translated. Samuel Beckett, Eugene Ionesco, and Jean Genet all wrote plays with existentialist themes. Then there's Jean-Paul Sartre, whose arguments are reasonable, well-argued, and better-written than your average philosopher - it helps that he, too, was a playwright/novelist.
For books/stories that aren't necessarily existentialist or nihilist but share some themes, buy a collection of short stories by Franz Kafka or Jorge Luis Borges. Some of them are absolutely ridiculous, but they're fun to read and put across some interesting ideas.
p.s. Philosophy is hardly an intellectually bankrupt pursuit, and one that is sorely undervalued in high school educational systems. If this is the kind of thing that tickles your fancy, DEFINITELY stick it out until college.
This is also hugely important, and something I didn't get across too well in my post. Be sure to work to maintain good grades - not to the point of extreme stress, but at least greater than needed to "get by". I worked only hard enough to "get by" in high school, but my version of getting by meant getting B+s and A-s where I should have been getting As and A+s. I got through high school, but I barely squeeked by into an exceptional college. I'm sure I would have enjoyed college education at any school, but being at a prestigious place with top-notch faculty and intelligent student body is just priceless, IMHO.
You want good grades in high school, annoying as it is to get them, because the higher the grades, the greater your options. That's why it's a great idea to do one of these summer programs at places like Oxford University: it'll help you to realize how great those institutions are, and will really motivate you to get into a better-than-average college. At the same time, like I said in the earlier post, don't sweat grades too much. At the end of the day, you'll always have viable options, so don't kill yourself over grades and fall into the trap of "If I don't go to Yale, I'll never enjoy college...", because it isn't true. Community college for two years transferred into two -years of primary education is perfectly fine, too.
Keep this in mind: college is where you learn how to read, think critically, and develop your intellectual interests. High school is just a big, boring preparation for all of that. Use all the free time to figure out where your interests lie, and keep your grades up so you can have as many options as possible when you begin the application process next year.
I can sympathize with you and I'm sure most people on this forum have similar problems. I've been where you are; I was calling myself a nihilist and mostly I was bored and lonely. I had your exact same opinions and experiences.
My view is that philosophy is a refuge for the depressed, the same as religion. Don't get me wrong, I love philosophy and knowledge, but when you start relying on those ideas to get you through the day, it's a symptom of a larger problem. Everything comes down to point of view. I don't want to get into philosophies, but I think you should be more objective. That's right, more objective... Weird thing to say to a rational thinker, right? I mean that your goal should simply be: To be happy. Figure out what would make you happy, and how to get it.
You really can choose to be happy, and what's better, to be happy, or to be philosophical? Remember, be objective. There's NOTHING better than being happy; what MAKES us happy is another story.
If you're like me, or my dad (whom I inherited this kind of thinking from), you might think that being happy means blinding yourself to the truth, being stupid, or making yourself into a fool. That in itself is foolish thinking. There's a little bit of truth in everything, but there is no ultimate truth*. This isn't the Matrix, and you're not Cypher. You're just a person.
By the way, remember to think of yourself as that: Just a person. Be honest and COMPLETELY open with yourself. You might not like to think of yourself in bad ways, to protect your self-esteem. Let me tell you about my dad:
My dad has a pretty weak social life. He and my mom are long-time friends with parents of my friends from my childhood. They get together every once in a while and chat. He goes to work (as a programmer), and tries to avoid conversation. When he gets home, he reads, exercises, cleans, and watches DVDs. It's not a BAD life, it's just that he's settled for a way of life he's not happy in, but that is within his comfort zone. You know what his problem is? It's that he always tries to be interesting. He thinks of himself as an interesting person, and he doesn't LIKE people who aren't interesting. As a matter of fact, he has a whole bunch of things he doesn't like: Any philosophy that doesn't agree with his own. Drugs, violence, and sex. Loud people, small talk, shy people, hunting, fishing, television, people who talk about themselves, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on, and it doesn't leave room for much of anything. That's a recipe for an empty life.
My dad is an interesting person, though. His lifetime of trying to be has made him witty and interesting, and everyone likes him, but he doesn't even know it. The problem is, his self-esteem still hinges on this, and he doesn't have the fun-filled life he deserves. The guy from "House" is a perfect example of this behavior, as is the guy from "Catcher In the Rye".
You have to give up before you can be free. You have to give up your fear of failure. You're just a person; no more, no less... You know, the things we dislike most about other people are often the things we dislike about ourselves. I myself can't stand it when someone is both outgoing and annoying. The reason behind that is: They are trying, and they are failing. They are putting themselves out there, socially, and just screwing up. They get under my skin so much because I feel that way about myself.
But they are right to be confident. They are annoying, yes, but at least they try. Is it better to try and fail, or not to try? OBJECTIVELY, it's better to try, and learn from mistakes, and pick yourself up and try again. This is how skills are learned. SUBJECTIVELY, however, it's very hard for people like us to accept our own mistakes and move on. What we can use is a healthy dose of optimism and positive thinking to kick us back up to reality. You may think of ideas as the ultimate truth, unshakable, but you should try not to think in absolutes. Ideas are better seen as tools to help you accomplish goals.
That fear of failure was the root of my depression. Like Tyler tries to tell the main character from Fight Club, giving up is the only way to be free. Stop caring and wanting something else, and start using what you have. The alcoholic's anonymous motto also expresses this idea; it's everywhere, you just have to interpret it the right way... Just like with everything.
*Of course there might be ultimate truths, but I don't think we can know them. Look around you; there's a bunch of something. How can something come from nothing? I don't want to get into it now, but if someone wants to they can PM me.
Check out this web site, which is full of useful information:
http://www.2knowmyself.com/
It's all written by one guy. Don't discount it because of the poor grammar or some ideas you might not agree with... 99% of what he has to say is good advice.
You should also read up on Enneagram type 5: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeFive.asp
The Enneagram is a personality model; there's no way it could be perfect, but it is pretty useful and accurate. It's sometimes tied in with New-Agey crap, but don't let that bias your viewpoint; it's totally seperate. Make sure to read the Overview and Personal Growth essays on that site.
Hell-- Search for Meyers-Briggs Indicator type INTP if you want another viewpoint.
Good luck...
<philosophy spiel>
Agreed. A tertiary education in philosophy will give you the intellectual tools you need to successfully grapple with the questions you're asking yourself now. People will often say there's an insurmountable disjunct between philosophy and practical reality, but in my case, I've found studying the works of minds greater than my own has helped me understand and cope with the problems of everyday living.
As trite as it sounds, you get out what you put in. People who say philosophy is useless are generally the ones who never bothered to study it properly in the first place.
</philosophy spiel>
I'm brainstorming a short-story as we speak, actually.
The truth is, most work sucks and is boring. Do well in high school so you can go to an interesting and well-regarded ivy league or small LAC so you can do something cool after that. If you don't, you'll very likely be stuck doing scut work or something without much intrinsic value or monetary compensation.
For the love of god, don't read atlas shrugged - it's the classic refuge of the mindset i've described above, rampant selfishness and megalomania wrapped up in moralism. Nietzsche is much the same way; disassociated loners with narcissisitc personality disorder dig Nietzsche.
How much Nietzsche have you actually read? The fact that you're wheeling out that old "guilt-by-association" chestnut leads me to believe ... not a lot.
It's all a mindset, dude. You want to be introverted. You want to be falling into a 'pit of nihilism'.
Seriously, check yourself right now and realize that, and you'll enjoy things a lot more.
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
I can't say I felt superior to people in my high school when I went there, but I did feel more intellectually-oriented. And by intellectual, I don't mean "superior in intelligence," but interested in education for the sake of knowlede. You can't deny that this is a rare trait for a high schooler, and it's one I think I see in Sleepwalker. For intellectually-oriented people, it's really important to recognize that places like college and certain summer programs exemplify the academic spirit, because high school will lead you to believe that people and environments like that don't even exist.
I'd say that narcissism is far more evident in Rand than Nietzsche.
You're confusing narcissism with egoism. In Rand's work egoism and selfishness are fine until they do real harm to others. Under Objectivism narcissism is still a mental disorder that results from people being willing to do real harm to others in order to satisfy their own desires; or at least that's how I see it, I checked and from what I can tell Rand never wrote or spoke much about narcissism specifically.
I draw this conclusion from Atlast Shrugged: John Galt and Hank Rearden are egoists. They advance their ideas and desires but do within the bounds of objective morality. But James Taggart and Bertram Scudder are narcissists because they advance their ideas and desires with no concern for the harm they do to others.
ChopperDave's recommendation is spot on and you will most definitely want to check out Albert Camus. His novel The Stranger is absolutely top-notch. His novel The Plague is also extremely thought-provoking. You can find good copies through the Vintage Books (They are a publishing branch of Random House that has an impressive collection of literary gold).
Nietzsche provides a good counter argument to nihilism but his novels can become pretty dense (lots and lots of metaphors). Be prepared to decipher a lot of aphorisms, as that is one of his calling cards. One of my favorite books by Nietzsche is actually On The Genealogy of Morals which covers so many interesting fields such as linguistics and sociology.
Finally, one final recommendation is Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis. It's a depressing but humorous story that is a delight to read.
Oh and while you're enjoying these books, go outside and enjoy the beauty of the world. It's not as depressing, alienating, and gloomy as its first impression might indicate. You might be pleasantly surprised by how much true beauty there is in even the smallest corners of our grand universe.
Looking for a Hardcore Fantasy Extraction Shooter? - Dark and Darker
That's what caught my eye when I read your post.
You need to find meaning in your own life. No matter how well you can discuss or justify it philosophically, lacking meaning in your life is going to continue to make you feel, for want of a better term, meaningless. Because of that, I'm not convinced that Nietzsche or Rand or any other philosopher can really provide the solution you're looking for.
So. We can start this discussion in a simple way. What in specific do you find interesting? What do you like to do? You seem well-read, so I'm quite sure that you're aware of any number of things that people devote their time to. You mention columbine and 9/11 as issues that caught your eye; does figuring out why columbine happened and how to prevent future school shootings interest you?
The reason I bring this up is, I was pretty close to where you are when I was in high school, for different reasons. I was depressed, which is incidentally something you should get checked for.
What pulled me out was getting involved in politics. Not just as an observer but as a participant. Long story short, a very charismatic guy convinced me to get involved in a basic way, and pretty soon I developed the understanding that it was possible for people to influence their environment in a meaningful way. The realization that individuals working together could improve not only their own lives but that of those around them was powerful for me, and it helped me focus on the incidental things (like high school) that were necessary for me to continue pursuing it.
The point: find something that you're interested in doing, and the rest of your issues will be much more easily resolved.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
On a more nuts-and-bolts level: I don't care if you are motivated to do what you are supposed to in school. DO IT! Not just a "get by" way, but FORCE YOURSELF to put in all you can to it. Why? Because right now you don't care about the stuff, but the pattern of discipline you set in your life now will be how you approach things you really love when you come to them. In college I just did what I had to, and now that I'm at grad school, doing what I love and am passionate about, I lack the discipline to sit and study for extended periods of time. I wish I had developed self-discipline back in high school and college.
The most important thing in life though is you have to have something to dedicate yourself to. If it's not school right now that's fine but taking interest in nothing is a sure way to rot away mentally and socially. Find a hobby to dedicate time to, do volunteer work, find a job you like, spend more time bonding with close friends and family, take up an artform. Anything can really take importance in your life if it matters to you.
Let me know how this turns out. I've been done with high school for years now and I'm still drifting without purpose. If you're at all like me, you like to dabble in many hobbies and learn about many subjects, but the thought of progressing beyond moderate interest and actually putting forth significant effort and making a career out of any of it doesn't appeal at all because you just don't care enough about it.
I should probably do this myself at some point. Right now I'm in the same boat as you and JWFokker
Seriously though, highschool is an awkward and confusing time for anyone who isn't on the football team or the cheer squad. Although nothing may seem to matter to you right now, the feeling will eventually pass and you'll realize that theres a much different world outside the walls of high school.
ps. Stay the hell away from Objectivism.