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I don't know if it happened like this, but protoss from what they showed of alpha -> today seems like they added as much crazy crap (old mothership and a bunch of other stuff) as they could then stripped it down until it was sort of okay.
Maybe it would have been better to build up a solid base then see what they could add. I'm not really a game designer though.
Protoss just isn't as well designed as the other two races, and I think forcefields and warp gate are the major reasons for it.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
This game would be far more exciting if the cooldown times on warpgates were changed to match the current gateway build times, and the current gateway build times were changed to match current warpgate cooldown.
That would be a hugely interesting mechanic. you make a sacrifice to get the warpins.
As I think about it, its possible that builds would simply evolve to have more warpgates at any given time to compensate for slower build time.
Perhaps a better alternative would be to make units more expensive to come out of a warpgate.
Protoss just isn't as well designed as the other two races, and I think forcefields and warp gate are the major reasons for it.
I think warp gate is fine. It's really FF that's a problem. The fact that it is a on a core gateway unit and has the potential to make armies so cost-effective --- or not --- makes it very polarizing.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
the worst part is that with how thickly the performance of forcefield is layered into the performance of every other unit, you can't even make simple changes to it without fucking EVERYTHING up. I don't even know where you'd start to fix how shitty ZvP is.
@kambing are there VODs for my match vs demonllama for CSTL?
Any others aside from Brainling vs Princesscake?
Currently Brainling vs. Princesscake g1 and g2 are up. I lost my internet connection on Tuesday so g3 is postponed to Saturday. I'll also be casting Humming/Bio, Tanner/Dhal, and Callow/Joe with Narwhal then. If you (or anyone else) wants additional matches casted, let me know, and I'll pump out some solo casts as time permits.
EDIT: I'll post public links to the series as we complete them. If you're really bored, you can find them on my youtube site.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
I think Gateway units need to be better and tech units need to be worse.
It's silly that I can open 2Rax in TvP and throw cheaper, fewer units at an opponent with better economy and come out ahead. It's also silly that once AoE tech is out I can never attack into a choke, no matter how much of an army advantage I have.
A Marauder and 2 Marines should not be a threat to 3 Stalkers, and I should not have to be wary of pushing up a ramp when I'm 70 food up.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
marauder and 2 marines aren't really a threat to 3 stalkers.
two marauders and one marine are, though. Its pretty much impossible to avoid losing more than your opponent in that fight as a Protoss - you'll lose two stalkers at minimum, probably, which is a lot of gas.
@kambing are there VODs for my match vs demonllama for CSTL?
Any others aside from Brainling vs Princesscake?
Currently Brainling vs. Princesscake g1 and g2 are up. I lost my internet connection on Tuesday so g3 is postponed to Saturday. I'll also be casting Humming/Bio, Tanner/Dhal, and Callow/Joe with Narwhal then. If you (or anyone else) wants additional matches casted, let me know, and I'll pump out some solo casts as time permits.
EDIT: I'll post public links to the series as we complete them. If you're really bored, you can find them on my youtube site.
You casted / streamed me vs demonllama.
Looking for that VOD.
@kambing are there VODs for my match vs demonllama for CSTL?
Any others aside from Brainling vs Princesscake?
Currently Brainling vs. Princesscake g1 and g2 are up. I lost my internet connection on Tuesday so g3 is postponed to Saturday. I'll also be casting Humming/Bio, Tanner/Dhal, and Callow/Joe with Narwhal then. If you (or anyone else) wants additional matches casted, let me know, and I'll pump out some solo casts as time permits.
EDIT: I'll post public links to the series as we complete them. If you're really bored, you can find them on my youtube site.
You casted / streamed me vs demonllama.
Looking for that VOD.
Oh. That was a "everyone in mumble obs" thing. I didn't save the vods for those because they're part of my daily stream, and I would need to splice out the relevant bits from twitch.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
the worst part is that with how thickly the performance of forcefield is layered into the performance of every other unit, you can't even make simple changes to it without fucking EVERYTHING up. I don't even know where you'd start to fix how shitty ZvP is.
Yeah, people have been talking about how stupid P's design is since before GSL3, when Ps felt hopeless. The gateway units/forcefield/colossus pyramid is so carefully balanced right now that changes to any of the three fucks up the entire race. You can't buff gateways without having 4gate or earlier timings shit on every other race and have PvP devolve into 4gate again. You can't nerf forcefield or P loses whenever they engage without high tech units. You can't nerf colossus because P without colossus gets shit on by every other race. But with all 3 combined, P can shit on every other race (assuming good forcefields).
Actually, recent PvT is an inversion of this. Gateway units with upgrades don't even need colossus anymore. Just FFs and then chargelot/archon ahoy! So I guess progress has been made? Just in an even stupider direction. Watching P stream in endless zeal/archon that the bioball is trying to kite is disgusting. Effective, maybe balanced, but just so brutal to watch.
Euphemon on
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
the worst part is that with how thickly the performance of forcefield is layered into the performance of every other unit, you can't even make simple changes to it without fucking EVERYTHING up. I don't even know where you'd start to fix how shitty ZvP is.
Yeah, people have been talking about how stupid P's design is since before GSL3, when Ps felt hopeless. The gateway units/forcefield/colossus pyramid is so carefully balanced right now that changes to any of the three fucks up the entire race. You can't buff gateways without having 4gate or earlier timings shit on every other race and have PvP devolve into 4gate again. You can't nerf forcefield or P loses whenever they engage without high tech units. You can't nerf colossus because P without colossus gets shit on by every other race. But with all 3 combined, P can shit on every other race (assuming good forcefields).
Actually, recent PvT is an inversion of this. Gateway units with upgrades don't even need colossus anymore. Just FFs and then chargelot/archon ahoy! So I guess progress has been made? Just in an even stupider direction. Watching P stream in endless zeal/archon that the bioball is trying to kite is disgusting. Effective, maybe balanced, but just so brutal to watch.
to balance it in a sane way, you'd have to rework warpgates, FF and gateway units. I don't think that Browder has the talent to do it or the willingness to admit a glaring design flaw. I'd love if sirlin was balancing this game though...
Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
Worse. Sirlin did a review on the BW class offered at Berkeley. In the comments, (and this was in 2009) he tried to convince everyone that BW needed to be easier and/or needed an APM cap. Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike him personally. I've also read his Play to Win book (even if every internet asshole links it in non-applicable arguments). Honestly, I think some of his points were valid. But his holier-than-thou attitude when talking down to a scene he never participated in grated on a lot of people.
EDIT: Also, Sirlin did a redesign of Street Fighter 2 (SF2HDR) that really split the community and that he received a lot of flak for. I doubt he could have done a much better job than Browder even if he had RTS instead of FG experience.
The only real problem with FFs is that they come early in the tech tree. Move them up and balance the strength of the remaining units accordingly and things become fine.
Also, the balance of the game is not at all broken as much as people bitch about things. Hitting a sweet spot with such a range of competition that's present in SC2 in such a short span of time is a testament to the abilities of the SC2 team.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
I think most people acknowledge that the balance of the game is pretty good right now. It's the way the matchups play out that is the problem. It's like, PvP was balanced when it was 4gate war. Doesn't mean it didn't suck horribly.
Actually, recent PvT is an inversion of this. Gateway units with upgrades don't even need colossus anymore. Just FFs and then chargelot/archon ahoy! So I guess progress has been made? Just in an even stupider direction. Watching P stream in endless zeal/archon that the bioball is trying to kite is disgusting. Effective, maybe balanced, but just so brutal to watch.
I really fail to see the difference between streaming in zealot archon for protoss and streaming in units for zerg. An entire race in the game is designed around the idea of constantly reinforcing with cheap units. I don't see the problem with giving protoss an alternate style to the deathball mentality, which I see as the more disgusting style. Now, the numbers may not be balanced right now, but I think the style itself is interesting.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
The difference is that protoss can instantly reinforce if they fight next to a pylon/warp prism, which they usually do in a management game. In addition, upgraded zeal/archon with charge is nigh-impossible for a bioball to kill effectively. Zerg needs wait for build time and need to stream their units together before pushing out, and the units they can reinforce with are not as effective as protoss units (mineral only lings vs lots). There are barely games at the pro level where Zergs win by constant reinforcements into a fight. For PvT, it's almost every macro game.
Deathball is disgusting, but it doesn't apply quite as well to PvT, and at least there is more micro involved for both players. The Terran has to target vikings, split army, and snipe/emp all asap. Protoss needs to cover colossi, make forcefields, and make sure units are engaging properly. Chargelot/archon is literally the initial engagement with FFs (sometimes not even FFs) and high templar, and then holding down the Z key and spamming left click.
Obviously, this is a subjective judgement. Some people might prefer watching the chargelot/archon style.
Euphemon on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
From what I've seen, a lot of protoss pros think that it's useless. I don't know the context in which Idra called it stupid, but that's why it's not an unpopular opinion.
They think it's useless because it doesn't neatly fit into existing builds or styles.
It will be incredibly powerful in a lot of situations as a late-game mix-in, a la Mothership.
Like, phoenixes are already nice to have for managing vikings and medivacs. They will be absurdly good at that role with 50% more range.
Actually, recent PvT is an inversion of this. Gateway units with upgrades don't even need colossus anymore. Just FFs and then chargelot/archon ahoy! So I guess progress has been made? Just in an even stupider direction. Watching P stream in endless zeal/archon that the bioball is trying to kite is disgusting. Effective, maybe balanced, but just so brutal to watch.
I really fail to see the difference between streaming in zealot archon for protoss and streaming in units for zerg. An entire race in the game is designed around the idea of constantly reinforcing with cheap units. I don't see the problem with giving protoss an alternate style to the deathball mentality, which I see as the more disgusting style. Now, the numbers may not be balanced right now, but I think the style itself is interesting.
There is a huge difference between making shit instantly and making shit and waiting for its build time.
Chargelots don't die, aren't countered by hellions/tanks (Terran's aoe) and are relatively cheap. It basically means that when a 200/200 tvp fight goes off, as soon as something dies, protoss instantly remakes it, so it becomes a 200 v 220 fight.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
From what I've seen, a lot of protoss pros think that it's useless. I don't know the context in which Idra called it stupid, but that's why it's not an unpopular opinion.
They think it's useless because it doesn't neatly fit into existing builds or styles.
It will be incredibly powerful in a lot of situations as a late-game mix-in, a la Mothership.
Like, phoenixes are already nice to have for managing vikings and medivacs. They will be absurdly good at that role with 50% more range.
FUCK I forgot to consider how it would effect pvt
Eh, I don't think it'll make any real difference. They could always catch and intercept Medivacs, and Vikings have 9 range and a 2s attack cooldown while Phoenixes move a billion miles per second so the Vikings don't really lose any volleys while the Phoenixes get into range, and from there Phoenixes win an even food fight anyway. It would help the Phoenixes kill banshees in a 1/1/1 but you'd never have it by then.
You're not microing them for their range against any stuff T has, really. I mean it might help but it won't be the big change it is in PvZ.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
at the least it will likely make them more common later in the game
upgrades have a way of influencing things like that indirectly.
I think most people acknowledge that the balance of the game is pretty good right now. It's the way the matchups play out that is the problem. It's like, PvP was balanced when it was 4gate war. Doesn't mean it didn't suck horribly.
Nah, a lot of people shit on the balance of the game like it's fundamentally broken when it isn't.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
0
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
KAMBING
DONT YOU UNDERSTAND
TERRAN WINS 53% OF THE TIME!!
THAT"S 3% MOPRE THAN 50%
Shiro: Your recent showmatch with aLive caused a bit of controversy when you opted to six-pool twice in a row. Would you mind explaining what happened on your end?
IdrA: He cheesed me successfully on two of the better zerg maps in the pool and it was just a showmatch I was asked to play a few hours beforehand. Alive is an excellent player and hes willing to take risks, a player like that is very hard to beat and given the map pool I didn’t think I had a realistic chance of coming back from down 0-2. The games weren’t gonna be entertaining if he just wanted to flip coins anyway, so I just 6 pooled to get it over, one way or the other.
Actually, recent PvT is an inversion of this. Gateway units with upgrades don't even need colossus anymore. Just FFs and then chargelot/archon ahoy! So I guess progress has been made? Just in an even stupider direction. Watching P stream in endless zeal/archon that the bioball is trying to kite is disgusting. Effective, maybe balanced, but just so brutal to watch.
I really fail to see the difference between streaming in zealot archon for protoss and streaming in units for zerg. An entire race in the game is designed around the idea of constantly reinforcing with cheap units. I don't see the problem with giving protoss an alternate style to the deathball mentality, which I see as the more disgusting style. Now, the numbers may not be balanced right now, but I think the style itself is interesting.
There is a huge difference between making shit instantly and making shit and waiting for its build time.
Chargelots don't die, aren't countered by hellions/tanks (Terran's aoe) and are relatively cheap. It basically means that when a 200/200 tvp fight goes off, as soon as something dies, protoss instantly remakes it, so it becomes a 200 v 220 fight.
Well then maybe there is some specific tweaking to do so that it isn't too powerful. I didn't say that it was balanced or not right now, I said that the style is interesting and shouldn't be shut down just because the numbers don't work yet. If you get rid of the upgrade gateway style that leaves turtle -> deathball as the only real protoss strategy, and I think that style is boring to watch and to play. Maybe the real problem is that chargelots counter tanks too well. Either way I don't know nearly enough about this game to argue about balance, and I wasn't trying to
I don't mind FFs or warp gates. What I hate about TvP is how most engagements are based around hard counters. Actually, that's what I hate about Starcraft 2 in general.
I feel like they should just remove most of the massive units from all races and balance from there.
Actually, recent PvT is an inversion of this. Gateway units with upgrades don't even need colossus anymore. Just FFs and then chargelot/archon ahoy! So I guess progress has been made? Just in an even stupider direction. Watching P stream in endless zeal/archon that the bioball is trying to kite is disgusting. Effective, maybe balanced, but just so brutal to watch.
I really fail to see the difference between streaming in zealot archon for protoss and streaming in units for zerg. An entire race in the game is designed around the idea of constantly reinforcing with cheap units. I don't see the problem with giving protoss an alternate style to the deathball mentality, which I see as the more disgusting style. Now, the numbers may not be balanced right now, but I think the style itself is interesting.
There is a huge difference between making shit instantly and making shit and waiting for its build time.
Chargelots don't die, aren't countered by hellions/tanks (Terran's aoe) and are relatively cheap. It basically means that when a 200/200 tvp fight goes off, as soon as something dies, protoss instantly remakes it, so it becomes a 200 v 220 fight.
Well then maybe there is some specific tweaking to do so that it isn't too powerful. I didn't say that it was balanced or not right now, I said that the style is interesting and shouldn't be shut down just because the numbers don't work yet. If you get rid of the upgrade gateway style that leaves turtle -> deathball as the only real protoss strategy, and I think that style is boring to watch and to play. Maybe the real problem is that chargelots counter tanks too well. Either way I don't know nearly enough about this game to argue about balance, and I wasn't trying to
I think the biggest problem is that the only thing that reliably kills zealots, is hard countered by 3 other protoss units.
I'd like to see a reduction in marauder damage, and then making it deal damage like a roach. (instead of +to armor, just make it a flat 10 or 12 or something)
Sirlin does have a point with regards to UI and APM cap. At least fighting games have a limit with "frames", and the sc (sc2 included) interface seems to be made intentionally difficult to control your forces.
I've asked several times, why can't i pull up my army's stats like an observer can? I really shouldnt have to recognize the pattern between a saturated mineral field and an unsaturated. I should be able to know that I have 40 roaches on the field without having ot manually count them. There were casting options on the unit select fields that were removed because the koreans thought it removed the skill in the game.
Keyboard gymnastics aren't really an integral part of a "strategy" game. They're a dexterity skill. We have the technology to make this stuff useful and intuitive and to play the actual game at a higher level if we didnt have to worry about hitting every inject, or warpgate cycle. I don't think that it adds to the gameplay, I think that it is an artificial barrier to overcome that isnt really realated to the actual game. Being able to make 3 commands per second is an awesome skill, but is it the defining characteristic of the genre?
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I like the dexterity aspect
I like knowing that sometimes I win because the other player's hands get jumpy and mine didn't. I also don't mind losing because my hands can't quite do what the strategy I chose requires.
it's a defining skill of starcraft. BW made that true and they kept it going with this game, albeit toned down somewhat.
I'd like to see a reduction in marauder damage, and then making it deal damage like a roach. (instead of +to armor, just make it a flat 10 or 12 or something)
Changing the +armored burst damage of the marauder would completely fuck up their role in TvT and TvZ.
Posts
Maybe it would have been better to build up a solid base then see what they could add. I'm not really a game designer though.
That would be a hugely interesting mechanic. you make a sacrifice to get the warpins.
As I think about it, its possible that builds would simply evolve to have more warpgates at any given time to compensate for slower build time.
Perhaps a better alternative would be to make units more expensive to come out of a warpgate.
I think warp gate is fine. It's really FF that's a problem. The fact that it is a on a core gateway unit and has the potential to make armies so cost-effective --- or not --- makes it very polarizing.
Any others aside from Brainling vs Princesscake?
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Currently Brainling vs. Princesscake g1 and g2 are up. I lost my internet connection on Tuesday so g3 is postponed to Saturday. I'll also be casting Humming/Bio, Tanner/Dhal, and Callow/Joe with Narwhal then. If you (or anyone else) wants additional matches casted, let me know, and I'll pump out some solo casts as time permits.
EDIT: I'll post public links to the series as we complete them. If you're really bored, you can find them on my youtube site.
It's silly that I can open 2Rax in TvP and throw cheaper, fewer units at an opponent with better economy and come out ahead. It's also silly that once AoE tech is out I can never attack into a choke, no matter how much of an army advantage I have.
A Marauder and 2 Marines should not be a threat to 3 Stalkers, and I should not have to be wary of pushing up a ramp when I'm 70 food up.
two marauders and one marine are, though. Its pretty much impossible to avoid losing more than your opponent in that fight as a Protoss - you'll lose two stalkers at minimum, probably, which is a lot of gas.
http://drop.sc/118755
http://drop.sc/118754
http://drop.sc/118753
Joe's Stream.
You casted / streamed me vs demonllama.
Looking for that VOD.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Wooooooooooooooooooooooo~
You rock Joe. Time for Hummingbird to bring us home the win.
Oh. That was a "everyone in mumble obs" thing. I didn't save the vods for those because they're part of my daily stream, and I would need to splice out the relevant bits from twitch.
i even used infestors, you'd be so proud of me :-)
Joe's Stream.
Yeah, people have been talking about how stupid P's design is since before GSL3, when Ps felt hopeless. The gateway units/forcefield/colossus pyramid is so carefully balanced right now that changes to any of the three fucks up the entire race. You can't buff gateways without having 4gate or earlier timings shit on every other race and have PvP devolve into 4gate again. You can't nerf forcefield or P loses whenever they engage without high tech units. You can't nerf colossus because P without colossus gets shit on by every other race. But with all 3 combined, P can shit on every other race (assuming good forcefields).
Actually, recent PvT is an inversion of this. Gateway units with upgrades don't even need colossus anymore. Just FFs and then chargelot/archon ahoy! So I guess progress has been made? Just in an even stupider direction. Watching P stream in endless zeal/archon that the bioball is trying to kite is disgusting. Effective, maybe balanced, but just so brutal to watch.
to balance it in a sane way, you'd have to rework warpgates, FF and gateway units. I don't think that Browder has the talent to do it or the willingness to admit a glaring design flaw. I'd love if sirlin was balancing this game though...
Joe's Stream.
compared to browder?
Joe's Stream.
EDIT: Also, Sirlin did a redesign of Street Fighter 2 (SF2HDR) that really split the community and that he received a lot of flak for. I doubt he could have done a much better job than Browder even if he had RTS instead of FG experience.
Also, the balance of the game is not at all broken as much as people bitch about things. Hitting a sweet spot with such a range of competition that's present in SC2 in such a short span of time is a testament to the abilities of the SC2 team.
I really fail to see the difference between streaming in zealot archon for protoss and streaming in units for zerg. An entire race in the game is designed around the idea of constantly reinforcing with cheap units. I don't see the problem with giving protoss an alternate style to the deathball mentality, which I see as the more disgusting style. Now, the numbers may not be balanced right now, but I think the style itself is interesting.
I have thought this for literally months. It is such a retarded fucking spell.
greatest thing ever
Deathball is disgusting, but it doesn't apply quite as well to PvT, and at least there is more micro involved for both players. The Terran has to target vikings, split army, and snipe/emp all asap. Protoss needs to cover colossi, make forcefields, and make sure units are engaging properly. Chargelot/archon is literally the initial engagement with FFs (sometimes not even FFs) and high templar, and then holding down the Z key and spamming left click.
Obviously, this is a subjective judgement. Some people might prefer watching the chargelot/archon style.
FUCK I forgot to consider how it would effect pvt
There is a huge difference between making shit instantly and making shit and waiting for its build time.
Chargelots don't die, aren't countered by hellions/tanks (Terran's aoe) and are relatively cheap. It basically means that when a 200/200 tvp fight goes off, as soon as something dies, protoss instantly remakes it, so it becomes a 200 v 220 fight.
Eh, I don't think it'll make any real difference. They could always catch and intercept Medivacs, and Vikings have 9 range and a 2s attack cooldown while Phoenixes move a billion miles per second so the Vikings don't really lose any volleys while the Phoenixes get into range, and from there Phoenixes win an even food fight anyway. It would help the Phoenixes kill banshees in a 1/1/1 but you'd never have it by then.
You're not microing them for their range against any stuff T has, really. I mean it might help but it won't be the big change it is in PvZ.
upgrades have a way of influencing things like that indirectly.
Nah, a lot of people shit on the balance of the game like it's fundamentally broken when it isn't.
DONT YOU UNDERSTAND
TERRAN WINS 53% OF THE TIME!!
THAT"S 3% MOPRE THAN 50%
i liked the uidra quote last page and this one, he represents himself diffeently now than he did a year ago
http://myeg.net/team/eg-idra-id-like-to-redeem-myself/
I wish i wasn't driving this weekend so i culd wathc winter arena T T
Well then maybe there is some specific tweaking to do so that it isn't too powerful. I didn't say that it was balanced or not right now, I said that the style is interesting and shouldn't be shut down just because the numbers don't work yet. If you get rid of the upgrade gateway style that leaves turtle -> deathball as the only real protoss strategy, and I think that style is boring to watch and to play. Maybe the real problem is that chargelots counter tanks too well. Either way I don't know nearly enough about this game to argue about balance, and I wasn't trying to
I feel like they should just remove most of the massive units from all races and balance from there.
I think the biggest problem is that the only thing that reliably kills zealots, is hard countered by 3 other protoss units.
I'd like to see a reduction in marauder damage, and then making it deal damage like a roach. (instead of +to armor, just make it a flat 10 or 12 or something)
I've asked several times, why can't i pull up my army's stats like an observer can? I really shouldnt have to recognize the pattern between a saturated mineral field and an unsaturated. I should be able to know that I have 40 roaches on the field without having ot manually count them. There were casting options on the unit select fields that were removed because the koreans thought it removed the skill in the game.
Keyboard gymnastics aren't really an integral part of a "strategy" game. They're a dexterity skill. We have the technology to make this stuff useful and intuitive and to play the actual game at a higher level if we didnt have to worry about hitting every inject, or warpgate cycle. I don't think that it adds to the gameplay, I think that it is an artificial barrier to overcome that isnt really realated to the actual game. Being able to make 3 commands per second is an awesome skill, but is it the defining characteristic of the genre?
Joe's Stream.
I like knowing that sometimes I win because the other player's hands get jumpy and mine didn't. I also don't mind losing because my hands can't quite do what the strategy I chose requires.
it's a defining skill of starcraft. BW made that true and they kept it going with this game, albeit toned down somewhat.