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[Wikileaks] The GI-Files: Now with a 2nd CIA and ~$125b in laundering a year

zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
edited February 2012 in Debate and/or Discourse
Wikileaks
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Remember when Wikileaks leaked the Afganistan war logs, then the Iraq war logs, then the diplomatic cables? This all built up and helped catalyze the Arab Spring, forcing the leaders of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, and Yemen from power; civil uprisings in Bahrain and Syria; and major protests in Algeria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco, and Oman.
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Well Wikileaks is back in action again and going after the banks. They call this release the GI-Files.

So far, we've learned that there's a private corporation employed as an unaccountable CIA, who call themselves Stratfor. Nominally an Austin Texas think tank, they have an unrivaled collection of informants, money laundering, blackmail, bribes, and ex-intel personnel. It's kind of like UK phone hacking, except it dwarfs it in scope and instead of selling the data for news they sell to the US Government and powerful multi-national corporations. This company is the kind of Intelligence Operation other nations wish they had.


There's also the allegation that Wachovia alone laundered ~125b a year for Mexican drug cartels. This is something that they were previously nailed on. Previous estimates were that Wachovia embezzled around $40b a year for $378.4b; that's about 1/3rd Mexico's GDP. To date, Wachovia is now immune to prosecution and only ended up paying a paltry 160m. If Wikileaks is correct, then they scope of the smuggling is even larger than believed.

Keep in mind, they're just getting started. Today is the first day of leaks and there are tons more to come. The most anticipated leaks are those that were allegedly destroyed: The US No-Fly list, and the Bank of America Documentation. We'll just have to wait to find out if those were truly wiped or not. Regardless, it's great fodder for discourse and debate.

zerg rush on
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Posts

  • HeirHeir Ausitn, TXRegistered User regular
    I'm a bit LttP on some of this, but how exactly did the leaks over Afghanistan and Iraq lead to the Arab Spring?

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  • Gigazombie CybermageGigazombie Cybermage Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Alright! Now this is the kinda stuff that should be leaked!

  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Heir wrote: »
    I'm a bit LttP on some of this, but how exactly did the leaks over Afghanistan and Iraq lead to the Arab Spring?

    http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-01-14/news/30096479_1_leila-ben-ali-trabelsis-tunisia-s-president-s

    The Arab Spring started with the Tunisian revolution, and spread from there. Tunisia aside from having high unemployment and food prices was horribly corrupt. Everyone knew they were corrupt, but the Wikileaks cables were a massive, steaming pile of irrefutable proof. After Tunisia, the arab spring spread to other locales (which also had their steaming piles of proof), and the rest is history.

    Clearly Wikileaks didn't 'cause' the arab spring, but it very much helped it along. The political landscape would have been vastly different if not for them.
    Edit: I see you mention the war leaks specifically. Basically, it showed that America was losing and it knew it was losing the entire time. We were just staying in the war to save face, which doesn't work when other people know that you're lying (which wikileaks leaked). The Tunisian president was a strong US supporter. A lot of the arab spring nation's leaders were supporting the US war on terror against the wishes of their people.

    zerg rush on
  • Gigazombie CybermageGigazombie Cybermage Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Wait, so these guys are spooks for the corporations? Holy shit... just, holy shit.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Wait, so these guys are spooks for the corporations? Holy shit... just, holy shit.

    Stratfor is also spooks for spooks. Dudes who work with intelligence agencies are a major subscriber base. I'd bet there are a lot of meetings today in D.C. about this.

  • Gigazombie CybermageGigazombie Cybermage Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    How exactly are these people held accountable? If you say "to their board and investors" I'm going to have kittens.

  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    How exactly are these people held accountable? If you say "to their board and investors" I'm going to have kittens.

    You call them out on the world stage apparently.


    Either that or die mysteriously of radon poisoning. Either or. (Edit: This is a joke. I don't have any knowledge of what, if any, assassinations they've committed.)

    Editx2: I feel dirty having to put in that edit. There shouldn't be a plausible chance that they would actually do that shit.

    zerg rush on
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    I'm trying to come up with something clever to say about this, but I'm just kinda dumbfounded.

    I mean holy goddamn. D:

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    How exactly are these people held accountable? If you say "to their board and investors" I'm going to have kittens.

    They're basically an intelligence clearinghouse. Like Jane's Information Group and The Council on Foreign Relations, they exist to sell their expertise in publications to a general audience and private reports to large organizations. This leak is a little like the Komen controversy, in that a publicly quiet, noncontroversial organization has been outed as a hotbed of wingnuts.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Because putting people in public service at risk through document disclosure was t bad enough, now they are putting private informants lives at risk. And to make matters worse this will probably just encourage Anonymous. Yay?

    I wish they would just throw Assange in jail for being a rapist already so we could be done with this nonsense . . .

    Without Assange or Wikileaks we'd have far less accountability in the U.S. government. Obama hasn't done that well on having a transparent government, after all. Someone needs to do this since the government won't clean up its trash.

    Ex-spies in the public service can fuck off if they're exploiting their skills to be mercenaries for the highest bidder. They're no better than Blackwater.

    Harry Dresden on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Because putting people in public service at risk through document disclosure was t bad enough, now they are putting private informants lives at risk. And to make matters worse this will probably just encourage Anonymous. Yay?

    I wish they would just throw Assange in jail for being a rapist already so we could be done with this nonsense . . .

    Accountability is overrated, I hear you there. :bz

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    How exactly are these people held accountable? If you say "to their board and investors" I'm going to have kittens.

    They're basically an intelligence clearinghouse. Like Jane's Information Group and The Council on Foreign Relations, they exist to sell their expertise in publications to a general audience and private reports to large organizations. This leak is a little like the Komen controversy, in that a publicly quiet, noncontroversial organization has been outed as a hotbed of wingnuts.

    That shit should be extremely illegal.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Isn't Wachovia a part of Wells Fargo, now?

    That drug trafficking funding thing... that... that really upsets me. Not like, sad. Like that is some infuriating and insulting shit.

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  • TehSpectreTehSpectre Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    The problem with Wikileaks is that they tried to be good about redacting innocent/informant/undercover names and shit from the files, but then got lazy and went "fuck it" and tons of people got outed in the name of transparency...which is stupid.

    The diplomatic cables things was also stupid and did more harm than good.


    I'm not saying Wikileaks hasn't done some good, but they really need to get on the ball about what will actually help the world and not just "fuck it, throw all the information out here ever haha!"

    TehSpectre on
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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Because putting people in public service at risk through document disclosure was t bad enough, now they are putting private informants lives at risk. And to make matters worse this will probably just encourage Anonymous. Yay?

    I wish they would just throw Assange in jail for being a rapist already so we could be done with this nonsense . . .

    Without Assange or Wikileaks we'd have far less accountability in the U.S. government. Obama hasn't done that well on having a transparent government, after all. Someone needs to do this since the government won't clean up its trash.

    Ex-spies in the public service can fuck off if they're exploiting their skills to be mercenaries for the highest bidder. They're no better than Blackwater.

    Part of electing a government is trusting their judgement. Governing is complicated, and I just don't think that we can second guess decisions about what needs to be kept secret.

    There are limits on that. Trust goes both ways. When its revealed a government has committed criminal activities the only thing a government can do to earn that trust back is to investigate the culprits and punish them to the full extent of the law. Ignoring said parties activities or punishing them lightly doesn't stop shit. Nor is that trust worthy anything.
    On topic, revealing the identities of informants or covert operatives (whether public or private) is just reprehensible. When your words can cause someone to be killed, you need to be EXTREMELY careful with them.

    They cut their ties with their governments to be mercenaries. While it's a shame they may have reprisals, my sympathy for them is very little. Being a spy is dangerous, they made their own beds by making themselves targets to people who actually want them to pay for their amoral deeds. At least this way they'll get punished. It's not like the authorities have been doing a good job shutting them down.

    Harry Dresden on
  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    Because putting people in public service at risk through document disclosure was t bad enough, now they are putting private informants lives at risk. And to make matters worse this will probably just encourage Anonymous. Yay?

    I wish they would just throw Assange in jail for being a rapist already so we could be done with this nonsense . . .

    Without Assange or Wikileaks we'd have far less accountability in the U.S. government. Obama hasn't done that well on having a transparent government, after all. Someone needs to do this since the government won't clean up its trash.

    Ex-spies in the public service can fuck off if they're exploiting their skills to be mercenaries for the highest bidder. They're no better than Blackwater.

    Part of electing a government is trusting their judgement. Governing is complicated, and I just don't think that we can second guess decisions about what needs to be kept secret.

    On topic, revealing the identities of informants or covert operatives (whether public or private) is just reprehensible. When your words can cause someone to be killed, you need to be EXTREMELY careful with them.

    Oh wow, I just assumed you were doing a Poe's Law parody. But no you actually believe that it's a bad thing for people to reveal the truth about vast lies and conspiracies, and then to pervert the rule of law to frame or torture people who are against the establishment.

    I, uh... that's a worldview I fundamentally cannot understand. I guess Woodward and Bernstein are traitors too, or something?

  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    Scandals like this always remind me of this quote by G.K Chesterton “It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.” I am against capital punishment, but I think it really is true. These people fuck with us because they know at the end of the day they will be fine even if they get caught. If this thing with Wachovia is true then everyone involved with it should be sentenced to life.

  • SpoonySpoony Registered User regular
    Because putting people in public service at risk through document disclosure was t bad enough, now they are putting private informants lives at risk. And to make matters worse this will probably just encourage Anonymous. Yay?

    I wish they would just throw Assange in jail for being a rapist already so we could be done with this nonsense . . .

    Without Assange or Wikileaks we'd have far less accountability in the U.S. government. Obama hasn't done that well on having a transparent government, after all. Someone needs to do this since the government won't clean up its trash.

    Ex-spies in the public service can fuck off if they're exploiting their skills to be mercenaries for the highest bidder. They're no better than Blackwater.

    Part of electing a government is trusting their judgement. Governing is complicated, and I just don't think that we can second guess decisions about what needs to be kept secret.

    On topic, revealing the identities of informants or covert operatives (whether public or private) is just reprehensible. When your words can cause someone to be killed, you need to be EXTREMELY careful with them.

    I'd argue that we have a fundamental duty to second guess decisions made by our government and that information is critical in formulating worthwhile and accurate opinions of governmental action and policy. "Private covert operative" is a nice way of saying, "Mercenary" or "Industrial Spy".

    Accountability is a part of being a leader. Declaring "national security" and sweeping everything under the rug is just a reprehensible way to show that you learned from Nixon's errors.

  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    The problem with Wikileaks is that they tried to be good about redacting innocent/informant/undercover names and shit from the files, but then got lazy and went "fuck it" and tons of people got outed in the name of transparency...which is stupid.

    The diplomatic cables things was also stupid and did more harm than good.


    I'm not saying Wikileaks hasn't done some good, but they really need to get on the ball about what will actually help the world and not just "fuck it, throw all the information out here ever haha!"

    Uh, they were releasing it as a trickle of information while redacting all the stuff. They had the whole thing online in encrypted format, so if they were assassinated or jailed the work could be done without them. The 'fuck it' part came when The Guardian then Der Freitag released the encryption keys (or ways to get the encryption keys) and then anyone anywhere could look at the unredacted version. As in, all the evil governments that wanted to disappear people could easily look at the unredacted version, but the informants who didn't know about cryptography couldn't.

    So the 'fuck it' was more like a 'oh shit evil guys have it anyways because someone fucked up might as well release'.

  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    Because putting people in public service at risk through document disclosure was t bad enough, now they are putting private informants lives at risk. And to make matters worse this will probably just encourage Anonymous. Yay?

    I wish they would just throw Assange in jail for being a rapist already so we could be done with this nonsense . . .

    Without Assange or Wikileaks we'd have far less accountability in the U.S. government. Obama hasn't done that well on having a transparent government, after all. Someone needs to do this since the government won't clean up its trash.

    Ex-spies in the public service can fuck off if they're exploiting their skills to be mercenaries for the highest bidder. They're no better than Blackwater.

    Part of electing a government is trusting their judgement. Governing is complicated, and I just don't think that we can second guess decisions about what needs to be kept secret.

    On topic, revealing the identities of informants or covert operatives (whether public or private) is just reprehensible. When your words can cause someone to be killed, you need to be EXTREMELY careful with them.

    We were never expected to or intended to trust them blindly.

  • TehSpectreTehSpectre Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    zerg rush wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    The problem with Wikileaks is that they tried to be good about redacting innocent/informant/undercover names and shit from the files, but then got lazy and went "fuck it" and tons of people got outed in the name of transparency...which is stupid.

    The diplomatic cables things was also stupid and did more harm than good.


    I'm not saying Wikileaks hasn't done some good, but they really need to get on the ball about what will actually help the world and not just "fuck it, throw all the information out here ever haha!"

    Uh, they were releasing it as a trickle of information while redacting all the stuff. They had the whole thing online in encrypted format, so if they were assassinated or jailed the work could be done without them. The 'fuck it' part came when The Guardian then Der Freitag released the encryption keys (or ways to get the encryption keys) and then anyone anywhere could look at the unredacted version. As in, all the evil governments that wanted to disappear people could easily look at the unredacted version, but the informants who didn't know about cryptography couldn't.

    So the 'fuck it' was more like a 'oh shit evil guys have it anyways because someone fucked up might as well release'.
    I believe they were told that their password access was a one time use deal...and then it wasn't, which was where the problem arose.


    Edit: I was slightly mistaken, but
    "Our book about WikiLeaks was published last February. It contained a password, but no details of the location of the files, and we were told it was a temporary password which would expire and be deleted in a matter of hours."



    TehSpectre on
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  • AbsurðrAbsurðr Näkrå maximum fucking hellRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Henroid wrote: »
    Isn't Wachovia a part of Wells Fargo, now?

    That drug trafficking funding thing... that... that really upsets me. Not like, sad. Like that is some infuriating and insulting shit.
    WF bought Wachovia, yes. Such wonderful banks we have, eh?

    I'm really interested to see what comes out of these new leaks. Here's hoping that they get more attention. Hm, is there a site anywhere that chronicles the effect and/or results of past cable releases?

    More or less topical, from the Yes Men:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Ih8iaBAuY

    Absurðr on
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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Wait so there's a real Shadow Broker? Like the idea of an informant who informs pretty much anyone for a price and is a step ahead of everyone else is supposed to be fiction.
    Jesus Christ.

    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    Wait to whom are you referring when you talk about people dying over the leak?

    We're all in this together
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  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    Ahaha that video. The guys in suits were shocked that what they were seeing was a real thing. Must suck to be so mentally isolated.

    Imagine if shit got real? They'd lose their minds.

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    Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    Huh, I really didn't know that Stratfor was anything other than a small journal. I had been ignoring the news about the Stratfor leaks because I didn't think it would contain anything useful or incriminating. Silly me!

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  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    Huh, I really didn't know that Stratfor was anything other than a small journal. I had been ignoring the news about the Stratfor leaks because I didn't think it would contain anything useful or incriminating. Silly me!

    Considering how frequently I've been disappointed with the quality of their finished product, I think we're both justified in assuming that they weren't working with originally-sourced material.

    edit: A quote from the WaPo article:
    “I think showing too much of our inner workings devalues our Mystique,” the email said. “People don’t know how we collect our intelligence and that’s one of the cool, mysterious things about STRATFOR.”

    As opposed to the impression of a "second CIA" posited earlier, this better represents the self-important amateur hour, Spy Who Came In From Recess attitude that I ordinarily associate with anything I've ever read from their journal.

    SammyF on
  • ElitistbElitistb Registered User regular
    1. If the government is breaking our laws, then yes, that is something that we need to know, so that we can hold them accountable. But that justification is very limited, and does not extend to things like cables, military deployments and tactics, or the identities of our intelligence agents and spies.
    In regards to 1 ... how would we know if we don't know, you know? Also I fail to see how this does not extend to ... well, potentially everything. Cables are immune? So they can't hold information on illegal activities by our government? Nor tactics, nor potentially the identities of our citizens performing illegal activities?

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  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    It may be more appropriate. But it doesn't exist, and it's not going to exist so long as those with the power to create that model aren't interested in creating it.

    I'm a huge fan of independent investigation that's beholden only to the public, but in the real world, people in power will never institute oversight of their activities. The wikileaks model is pretty much the only option available, as inelegant as it is.

  • ElitistbElitistb Registered User regular
    Elitistb wrote: »
    1. If the government is breaking our laws, then yes, that is something that we need to know, so that we can hold them accountable. But that justification is very limited, and does not extend to things like cables, military deployments and tactics, or the identities of our intelligence agents and spies.
    In regards to 1 ... how would we know if we don't know, you know? Also I fail to see how this does not extend to ... well, potentially everything. Cables are immune? So they can't hold information on illegal activities by our government? Nor tactics, nor potentially the identities of our citizens performing illegal activities?

    I think that the Internal Affairs model is probably more appropriate when it comes to sensitive diplomatic information or military secrets than publishing them on a website for the whole world to see. . .
    And if they are corrupt, or some part of them is corrupt and in collusion, then what?

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  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    So US attorneys drew up a secret indictment against Assange, as revealed in the Stratfor e-mails. Now I'm going to take this with a grain of salt, since my gut says the Stratfor guys may have been BSing about this. But still, if this does turn out to be true, it's going to cause quite an uproar, I think.

    Curly_Brace on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    Our elected officials are largely self-interested, and sometimes outright corrupt. Putting blind trust in them is foolish, but expecting others to do it just because you do is just...

    As for internal affairs, as has been mentioned already it doesn't exist. I'll take wikileaks over no oversight every time because it's patently obviously that my elected officials cannot be trusted to follow the law, or even the best interests of the nation as a whole, when left to do anything they please in total secrecy.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    1. If the government is breaking our laws, then yes, that is something that we need to know, so that we can hold them accountable. But that justification is very limited, and does not extend to things like cables, military deployments and tactics, or the identities of our intelligence agents and spies.

    They redacted it originally IIRC. It was a third party that let specific details be revealed.
    2. I see no distinction between public and private here. If someone tells you a secret that is literally life or death, you do not announce it to the whole world. I am normally very careful about respecting the difference between direct action and indirect action or inaction, but in this case, I think wiki leaks is just as responsible for anyone who is killed as a result of these leaks as the person who pulls the trigger.

    Secrecy on that level should only be used very carefully. Not for every corrupt asshole in the government or private sector, especially when crimes are being committed.

    Wikileaks is there for when governments fail to be accountable or corporate entities who do shit like this who are even worse. It's organized crime on a different level. Had Wikileaks done this to a mafia or street gang would you be so quick to defend them?

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Elitistb wrote: »
    1. If the government is breaking our laws, then yes, that is something that we need to know, so that we can hold them accountable. But that justification is very limited, and does not extend to things like cables, military deployments and tactics, or the identities of our intelligence agents and spies.
    In regards to 1 ... how would we know if we don't know, you know? Also I fail to see how this does not extend to ... well, potentially everything. Cables are immune? So they can't hold information on illegal activities by our government? Nor tactics, nor potentially the identities of our citizens performing illegal activities?

    I think that the Internal Affairs model is probably more appropriate when it comes to sensitive diplomatic information or military secrets than publishing them on a website for the whole world to see. . .

    Unfortunately we don't have that right now. The U.S. government has no such entity for spies or ex-spies that I'm aware of. Or at least it's basically rendered weak or useless from the Dubya administration. Not that such an entity couldn't always be improved. This type of shit the government can't afford to relax on. The U.S. military's a joke about these things as the last few years proved.

    Until the day when America has it up and running competently Wikileaks will have fill in the gaps. Someone has to do it.

    Harry Dresden on
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