Dimaga is the best at late game ZvP patience, I wish more Z's would take heed.
You enjoy games likes that? I hope no Zergs take heed.
Who cares if anyone enjoys it, it works so people should do it.
They should do it, but I don't want them to, because I'm a spectator and I care if the games are enjoyable to watch. You are a spectator too, so I'm curious why you want to watch hour long games where a Zerg sits on top of a spine wall.
Ok, this series is just kind of retarded. Free third for protoss. Blink suicide into main. Engage without storm. And then counter counter-aggression with blind a-move against storm.
And then the turtle... Sigh. Maybe this time Hero will use his multi-tasking to actually abuse dimaga's passivity.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
Dimaga is the best at late game ZvP patience, I wish more Z's would take heed.
You enjoy games likes that? I hope no Zergs take heed.
Who cares if anyone enjoys it, it works so people should do it.
They should do it, but I don't want them to, because I'm a spectator and I care if the games are enjoyable to watch. You are a spectator too, so I'm curious why you want to watch hour long games where a Zerg sits on top of a spine wall.
I'd rather watch a game where both players play to their best at the time and we get to see who wins, instead of one guy using an inferior strategy for the sake of entertainment.
Ideally the best strategy is also interesting to watch but that's a fault of the game and not the players.
And this is why we stopped going ling/bane in ZvP. Although I guess if dima had the foresight to drop a macro hatch on lair transition he might've been able to hold it.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
You want an engagement out of your base in open ground to be able to exploit drawing out FFs. The problem with ling/bane on certain maps against protoss is the big-scary timing comes out before zerg can push their units out of the chokes into their base. If Protoss gets in there like Hero did in that last game, then baiting FFs doesn't help because you don't have anywhere to run to. You end up gambling by making more units earlier than you'd like, but if protoss ends up being passive, you fall behind.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
A big part of the problem is spine crawlers. It gives the Zerg a way to free up supply, use their minerals, and makes it nigh impossible for the Protoss to attack. Could fix by making maps bigger or giving Protoss the arbiter again.
Late game ZvP is exactly like mid-game mech TvZ. The player with the more mobile army needs to start harassing their opponent to death. For TvZ, it's roach drops while teching to broods. In ZvP, it's warp prism and blink stalker play.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
Anyone got ideas for how to make lategame ZvP less stupid?
Toss needs better raiding ability, zerg needs to be able to engage directly without having to mass a ridiculous army.
Also nerfing marines would help.
Late game Protoss raiding ability is unbelievably good. Are you crazy? DTs and upgraded chargelots are brutal to deal with in small army numbers.
Better mid game raiding would lead to less of the end game situations we're seeing though, where both economies are largely untouched which usually just leads to the boring deathball vs deathball crap.
NASL finally started to want to compete with IPL this season. Been good so far.
But also, can't really beat bitterdam.
also chance the esports dog
I'm not familiar with the history behind the genesis of the dog's name, but wasn't "chance" an unknown player that got really far in NASL? Is that why the dog is named chance? Kind of like an honor?
edit: and I would totally buy BitterDam a drink hoping to get them a bit looser for later. God damn.
Late game ZvP is exactly like mid-game mech TvZ. The player with the more mobile army needs to start harassing their opponent to death. For TvZ, it's roach drops while teching to broods. In ZvP, it's warp prism and blink stalker play.
What exactly is more mobile about a Protoss army when your opponent has speed roaches or speed lings.
Late game ZvP is exactly like mid-game mech TvZ. The player with the more mobile army needs to start harassing their opponent to death. For TvZ, it's roach drops while teching to broods. In ZvP, it's warp prism and blink stalker play.
What exactly is more mobile about a Protoss army when your opponent has speed roaches or speed lings.
If it's late game, then the zerg army is broodlord/infestor which is cost-effective but immobile. If it's still predominately lings and roaches then you still retain the army tech advantage and it's on the zerg to mitigate that with harassment or sheer numbers.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Late game ZvP is exactly like mid-game mech TvZ. The player with the more mobile army needs to start harassing their opponent to death. For TvZ, it's roach drops while teching to broods. In ZvP, it's warp prism and blink stalker play.
What exactly is more mobile about a Protoss army when your opponent has speed roaches or speed lings.
If it's late game, then the zerg army is broodlord/infestor which is cost-effective but immobile. If it's still predominately lings and roaches then you still retain the army tech advantage and it's on the zerg to mitigate that with harassment or sheer numbers.
I don't know why you think that having broodlord infestor precludes having any roaches or speedlings
Are you expecting the Protoss to just have 40 blink stalkers kicking around that he can happily run all over the map despite the fact that if they get fungalled they are DEAD
Late game ZvP is exactly like mid-game mech TvZ. The player with the more mobile army needs to start harassing their opponent to death. For TvZ, it's roach drops while teching to broods. In ZvP, it's warp prism and blink stalker play.
What exactly is more mobile about a Protoss army when your opponent has speed roaches or speed lings.
If it's late game, then the zerg army is broodlord/infestor which is cost-effective but immobile. If it's still predominately lings and roaches then you still retain the army tech advantage and it's on the zerg to mitigate that with harassment or sheer numbers.
I don't know why you think that having broodlord infestor precludes having any roaches or speedlings
Are you expecting the Protoss to just have 40 blink stalkers kicking around that he can happily run all over the map despite the fact that if they get fungalled they are DEAD
Don't be dense. The point of the harassment is precisely punishing your opponent for leaning too heavily towards T3 or forcing them to include cost-ineffective units in their mix so that they can properly deal with it. And what I expect Protoss to do is precisely what is expected against zerg when facing mech. Abuse the immobility of your opponent's core army and force action on your opponent's side of the map while you build up tech and infrastructure to deal with the deathball.
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
Zerg is OP guys, that's why the GSL Ro8 is all zerg players, right? :P
Anzekay on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
Harassment by itself is fine for PvZ lategame. DTs and stuff are awesome vs bl/infestor armies. But you still gotta deal with the army sooner or later, and the "build tech and infrastructure to deal with the zerg deathball" basically boils down to "get a fucking mothership or you lose"
Which is the stupid part of ZvP lategame.
protoss has mothership - can win in a stupid way with one well placed vortex and the Zerg has very little ability to do anything about it
protoss has no mothership - can not win
I want to see the mothership gone, fungal reduced to a 60-80% snare for a longer duration and maybe some more damage rather than a root, and Broodlords being retuned to be Guardians instead.
Also, infestors need to be smaller - they are way too easy to target for feedback, from my experience
Zerg is OP guys, that's why the GSL Ro8 is all zerg players, right? :P
i dont think zerg is OP, i think the ZvP matchup sucks
something can be balanced and still suck
Okay well you only just got to talking about that rather than talking about how Zerg can do X thing that protoss can't deal with or whatever you were trying to say to kambing :P
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Yeah, I meant at the pro level, I don't really care what people are doing below that unless they're me.
o_O
I don't care if he wins. I'm thoroughly unimpressed with his play.
They should do it, but I don't want them to, because I'm a spectator and I care if the games are enjoyable to watch. You are a spectator too, so I'm curious why you want to watch hour long games where a Zerg sits on top of a spine wall.
And then the turtle... Sigh. Maybe this time Hero will use his multi-tasking to actually abuse dimaga's passivity.
I'd rather watch a game where both players play to their best at the time and we get to see who wins, instead of one guy using an inferior strategy for the sake of entertainment.
Ideally the best strategy is also interesting to watch but that's a fault of the game and not the players.
EDIT: lol, one extractor.
There's no such thing as better baneling micro when FFs are involved. There's only cross your fingers and hope the protoss doesn't FF properly.
After the FFs went down he should have pulled the banelings back. He lost like 5-6 just from having them run up against the FFs.
But also, can't really beat bitterdam.
also chance the esports dog
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Toss needs better raiding ability, zerg needs to be able to engage directly without having to mass a ridiculous army.
Also nerfing marines would help.
edit: Really a zerg 300 food army isn't all that great and toss needs more ways to reward good multitasking.
Remove Protoss from the game and replace with Terran.
Late game Protoss raiding ability is unbelievably good. Are you crazy? DTs and upgraded chargelots are brutal to deal with in small army numbers.
Better mid game raiding would lead to less of the end game situations we're seeing though, where both economies are largely untouched which usually just leads to the boring deathball vs deathball crap.
I'm not familiar with the history behind the genesis of the dog's name, but wasn't "chance" an unknown player that got really far in NASL? Is that why the dog is named chance? Kind of like an honor?
edit: and I would totally buy BitterDam a drink hoping to get them a bit looser for later. God damn.
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That or the "you want a piece of me, boy".
What exactly is more mobile about a Protoss army when your opponent has speed roaches or speed lings.
If it's late game, then the zerg army is broodlord/infestor which is cost-effective but immobile. If it's still predominately lings and roaches then you still retain the army tech advantage and it's on the zerg to mitigate that with harassment or sheer numbers.
I don't know why you think that having broodlord infestor precludes having any roaches or speedlings
Are you expecting the Protoss to just have 40 blink stalkers kicking around that he can happily run all over the map despite the fact that if they get fungalled they are DEAD
Don't be dense. The point of the harassment is precisely punishing your opponent for leaning too heavily towards T3 or forcing them to include cost-ineffective units in their mix so that they can properly deal with it. And what I expect Protoss to do is precisely what is expected against zerg when facing mech. Abuse the immobility of your opponent's core army and force action on your opponent's side of the map while you build up tech and infrastructure to deal with the deathball.
Which is the stupid part of ZvP lategame.
protoss has mothership - can win in a stupid way with one well placed vortex and the Zerg has very little ability to do anything about it
protoss has no mothership - can not win
I want to see the mothership gone, fungal reduced to a 60-80% snare for a longer duration and maybe some more damage rather than a root, and Broodlords being retuned to be Guardians instead.
Also, infestors need to be smaller - they are way too easy to target for feedback, from my experience
it's a big battle of dumb units made by dumb people
i dont think zerg is OP, i think the ZvP matchup sucks
something can be balanced and still suck
Okay well you only just got to talking about that rather than talking about how Zerg can do X thing that protoss can't deal with or whatever you were trying to say to kambing :P