Flash's estimate is based on him playing SC2 part time, right? I'd think it would take half that if he committed himself to it.
Well he also talks about playing until 3-4 in the morning, and compares it to the feeling he had the first time he played sc1, so I don't think it's based on a part-time estimate.
I know everyone is scared that the BW Koreans will smash everyone and make foreigners irrelevant but in some ways I believe that is actually the best case scenario.
If they exhibit a level of skill beyond what is even comprehensible in terms of the scene right now it will just make the product of competitive Starcraft so much better.
Ultimately that is what is important.
I want this game to be so damn good it makes low skill ceiling games like League of Legends look like ESPORTs entertainment, like a damn WWE match. When popularity dwarfs the actual level of competition in a game the whole notion of viewable competitive gaming falls apart. I see that so much in the current gen of MOBA offerings, and that's even coming from a big fan.
Foreigners will be able to catch up, information is more available than it ever was in BW. If the bar rises everyone will get better. The main cause of the disparity in BW was economic backing for foreign players, as well as the ability for people outside of Korea to get FPVods, to analyze and the like. They aren't there anymore.
Realistically Flash can't be as dominant as he was in BW right now. There's not enough avenues for one player to outplay another. You can only do a four hellion expand with so many degrees of personal flair. He will work harder than most and get to the top. But the game needs more development in many ways to offer up a platform worthy of what was available in Brood War.
I think the greatest challenge for the BW players will be proving they can be innovators as well as perfection grinders. It's a new frontier. Flash for example, dominated by adding fantastic Goliath control and savy upgrades to his mech play in BW.
In SC2 he could go as far as teaching people actually how to play Mech reliably without spinning it off a cheese like 99% of games have been. He can teach dudes like DeMuslim hey you can't just forget key tech structures in your build 50% of the time and be considered top level. There's more room than ever to build a legacy.
redraptor on
0
Options
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited May 2012
I'm actually not worried their going to waltz in and smash everyone. I've always felt SC2 was a different enough game that this 1:1 transition people seem to think exists, doesn't. While we certainly haven't had any Flash level players switch over yet, so far the ones who haves switched haven't set the world on fire. I think the BW Pros will be great players, but I think the current crop of top SC2 players will be fine.
The only thing that worries me about Proleague possibly taking over is that it hasn't been the most inclusive organization. We have a really nice community built up in SC2, with the big tournament organizers all communicating and helping to pull in the same direction. I'd hate to see that get messed with by the old guard BW organizations.
I know everyone is scared that the BW Koreans will smash everyone and make foreigners irrelevant but in some ways I believe that is actually the best case scenario.
If they exhibit a level of skill beyond what is even comprehensible in terms of the scene right now it will just make the product of competitive Starcraft so much better.
I kinda just want the BW pros to come in and be in the top tier of SC2 players, but not smash everyone.
We get some better competition, and all the BW fanbois who go on about how the BW players will smash everyone get to shut up at last.
You're in luck, because that's almost certainly what will happen.
Though, we won't know right away. Until the Proleague guys start playing in SC2 tournaments outside of Proleague (which I don't think they are allowed to do).
Yeah, that's what I am thinking too. They're all very good at RTS games at the base level, and so all that will transition to SC2 easily. But the games are different enough that they wont be godlike right away.
Heck, Flash and Bisu were saying that sort of thing in some of those quotes.
I mean it is probably naive to think that they are already as polished as everyone else.
But I'm hoping at least Day 1 I see some sort of energy or originality to their play owing to their rich history of RTS.
It's like when that guy had leaked replays of the supposed BW player vs HuK (which was fake) and they used like eight camera hotkeys. Okay in my brain obviously more camera hotkeys is advantageous, its like giving yourself more hotkeys but for most people even attempting that will cause more harm than good.
But everyone believed that would totally be something a BW player would do.
I want to see some shit like that.
You have to know the amount of pride that is on the line, as well as the stakes. I guarantee people are in their ears about the possible loss of massive sponsors like SKTelecom (giant giant Korean company who sponsors a BW team). They know the SC2 teams are comparatively sponsored by like ...the handsome nerd.
Another thing is, any amount of time you are told the Koreans have been practicing I would at least double it. At least. For some reason anytime someone has switched games they just outright lie about that shit to seem more impressive.
So even more potential for what could happen next week. Hype. hype. hype.
I kinda just want the BW pros to come in and be in the top tier of SC2 players, but not smash everyone.
We get some better competition, and all the BW fanbois who go on about how the BW players will smash everyone get to shut up at last.
they will complain that sc2 doesn't have a high enough skill ceiling for these players -already determined the best by these fans- to separate themselves.
just to prepare you
not sure where I stand to be honest but that is what's going to be said.
I kinda just want the BW pros to come in and be in the top tier of SC2 players, but not smash everyone.
We get some better competition, and all the BW fanbois who go on about how the BW players will smash everyone get to shut up at last.
they will complain that sc2 doesn't have a high enough skill ceiling for these players -already determined the best by these fans- to separate themselves.
just to prepare you
not sure where I stand to be honest but that is what's going to be said.
Yeah but then we can laugh at them about how silly they sound.
0
Options
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
that's fine haha, but they aren't going to shut up I guess is my point
well some will becuase they'll probably go away, some will get over it... but some...
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited May 2012
The skill ceiling argument is tired and pretty BS at this point. If SC2 had this low skill ceiling, we wouldn't see the game evolving, and we do. Just look at the micro of the best players right now. I just watched Taeja do some the craziest baneling dodging I've ever seen on the ESLTV rebroadcast (not JUST now when he got smashed, but two games ago).
really everything ever needs to be proleague style
so proleague coming into sc2, even if its a bit crappy at first
will do to further that goal
proleague is the best fucking format for sc
I still kinda like the king of the hill style the GSTL has. All-kills are amazing to watch happen (or nearly happen). They had those in BW too.
In fact the world's first all-kill was done by Legionaire, the mighty Aussie of BW!
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The amount of unacceptably bad mistakes progamers make is astounding.
One of the biggest things I notice constantly is lack of attention to upgrades. I watch the production tab like a hawk for this, these days. Routinely, a weapon or armour upgrade will finish and then you'll go 30-45 seconds before seeing the next level appear in the tab.
In fact I saw exactly this from Symbol the other night, and it potentially cost him a game, because in a decisive engagement, his upgrade finished near the middle of the engagement, instead of finishing 20+ seconds before it, if he had been on time.
I don't care if the Proleague level of play isn't up to the current standard, but I do hope that we get to see some creativity and original builds. My biggest hope is that the influx of BW players will be able to challenge our conceptions of how the game is supposed to be played and lead to new and exciting techniques and playstyles. Like Redraptor mentioned, things like having a whole bunch of camera hotkeys is something that hasn't been explored yet, and could lead to a higher skill ceiling and better play.
Listen dudes, you can't pay any attention to what the Team Liquid BW community says if the level of play is higher or lower or whatever. That is a collection of people who time would do best to forget. They will figure out something dumb and aggravating to say when the opportunity arises.
But imagine if like all the Brood War monsters have been trying to say, play Mech TvP, and just that is how they do it. Maybe it would lose to Code S player TvP right now, but perhaps through segregation they can safely develop something that is fundamentally sound.
I just hope they've been figuring things out themselves at least as much as they have been reviewing replay and grinding out ladder.
The amount of unacceptably bad mistakes progamers make is astounding.
One of the biggest things I notice constantly is lack of attention to upgrades. I watch the production tab like a hawk for this, these days. Routinely, a weapon or armour upgrade will finish and then you'll go 30-45 seconds before seeing the next level appear in the tab.
In fact I saw exactly this from Symbol the other night, and it potentially cost him a game, because in a decisive engagement, his upgrade finished near the middle of the engagement, instead of finishing 20+ seconds before it, if he had been on time.
I can't tell you how many crisp 2/2 timings have won me marine/tank mirror tvts in the past. I'll start looking for that more in pro play, I always just took it for granted that the pros would be on top of their upgrades.
However low the skill ceiling for SC2 may be, I don't think we're at the point where it's a problem. Even today you see pros get supply blocked a bunch and still win. Whether it's because of the influx of BW pros, or the natural progression of skill, people are going to be a lot better at this game in a few years than they are now.
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The amount of unacceptably bad mistakes progamers make is astounding.
One of the biggest things I notice constantly is lack of attention to upgrades. I watch the production tab like a hawk for this, these days. Routinely, a weapon or armour upgrade will finish and then you'll go 30-45 seconds before seeing the next level appear in the tab.
In fact I saw exactly this from Symbol the other night, and it potentially cost him a game, because in a decisive engagement, his upgrade finished near the middle of the engagement, instead of finishing 20+ seconds before it, if he had been on time.
I can't tell you how many crisp 2/2 timings have won me marine/tank mirror tvts in the past. I'll start looking for that more in pro play, I always just took it for granted that the pros would be on top of their upgrades.
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The amount of unacceptably bad mistakes progamers make is astounding.
One of the biggest things I notice constantly is lack of attention to upgrades. I watch the production tab like a hawk for this, these days. Routinely, a weapon or armour upgrade will finish and then you'll go 30-45 seconds before seeing the next level appear in the tab.
In fact I saw exactly this from Symbol the other night, and it potentially cost him a game, because in a decisive engagement, his upgrade finished near the middle of the engagement, instead of finishing 20+ seconds before it, if he had been on time.
I can't tell you how many crisp 2/2 timings have won me marine/tank mirror tvts in the past. I'll start looking for that more in pro play, I always just took it for granted that the pros would be on top of their upgrades.
Yeah same here, I really need to disable holding a key to "access" the f-keys. So lazy/stupid not to do that.
That will get those f-keys for cameras up and running.
how many protoss need to get their teeth kicked in by all-ins and 2-base timings before they get their shit together
I didn't see that game, but scouting the 1/1/1 is difficult to do without robo, and robo is not really what you want when defending it. Immortal/Zealot works with absolute perfect control, but chargelot/phoenix is the proper counter. Except that if you can't scout the 1/1/1 without robo, you can't go for the chargelot phoenix.
Posts
Well he also talks about playing until 3-4 in the morning, and compares it to the feeling he had the first time he played sc1, so I don't think it's based on a part-time estimate.
If they exhibit a level of skill beyond what is even comprehensible in terms of the scene right now it will just make the product of competitive Starcraft so much better.
Ultimately that is what is important.
I want this game to be so damn good it makes low skill ceiling games like League of Legends look like ESPORTs entertainment, like a damn WWE match. When popularity dwarfs the actual level of competition in a game the whole notion of viewable competitive gaming falls apart. I see that so much in the current gen of MOBA offerings, and that's even coming from a big fan.
Foreigners will be able to catch up, information is more available than it ever was in BW. If the bar rises everyone will get better. The main cause of the disparity in BW was economic backing for foreign players, as well as the ability for people outside of Korea to get FPVods, to analyze and the like. They aren't there anymore.
Realistically Flash can't be as dominant as he was in BW right now. There's not enough avenues for one player to outplay another. You can only do a four hellion expand with so many degrees of personal flair. He will work harder than most and get to the top. But the game needs more development in many ways to offer up a platform worthy of what was available in Brood War.
I think the greatest challenge for the BW players will be proving they can be innovators as well as perfection grinders. It's a new frontier. Flash for example, dominated by adding fantastic Goliath control and savy upgrades to his mech play in BW.
In SC2 he could go as far as teaching people actually how to play Mech reliably without spinning it off a cheese like 99% of games have been. He can teach dudes like DeMuslim hey you can't just forget key tech structures in your build 50% of the time and be considered top level. There's more room than ever to build a legacy.
The only thing that worries me about Proleague possibly taking over is that it hasn't been the most inclusive organization. We have a really nice community built up in SC2, with the big tournament organizers all communicating and helping to pull in the same direction. I'd hate to see that get messed with by the old guard BW organizations.
this has been my hope for a while, for sure
We get some better competition, and all the BW fanbois who go on about how the BW players will smash everyone get to shut up at last.
You're in luck, because that's almost certainly what will happen.
Though, we won't know right away. Until the Proleague guys start playing in SC2 tournaments outside of Proleague (which I don't think they are allowed to do).
Heck, Flash and Bisu were saying that sort of thing in some of those quotes.
But I'm hoping at least Day 1 I see some sort of energy or originality to their play owing to their rich history of RTS.
It's like when that guy had leaked replays of the supposed BW player vs HuK (which was fake) and they used like eight camera hotkeys. Okay in my brain obviously more camera hotkeys is advantageous, its like giving yourself more hotkeys but for most people even attempting that will cause more harm than good.
But everyone believed that would totally be something a BW player would do.
I want to see some shit like that.
You have to know the amount of pride that is on the line, as well as the stakes. I guarantee people are in their ears about the possible loss of massive sponsors like SKTelecom (giant giant Korean company who sponsors a BW team). They know the SC2 teams are comparatively sponsored by like ...the handsome nerd.
Another thing is, any amount of time you are told the Koreans have been practicing I would at least double it. At least. For some reason anytime someone has switched games they just outright lie about that shit to seem more impressive.
So even more potential for what could happen next week. Hype. hype. hype.
they will complain that sc2 doesn't have a high enough skill ceiling for these players -already determined the best by these fans- to separate themselves.
just to prepare you
not sure where I stand to be honest but that is what's going to be said.
so proleague coming into sc2, even if its a bit crappy at first
will do to further that goal
proleague is the best fucking format for sc
Yeah but then we can laugh at them about how silly they sound.
well some will becuase they'll probably go away, some will get over it... but some...
I still kinda like the king of the hill style the GSTL has. All-kills are amazing to watch happen (or nearly happen). They had those in BW too.
In fact the world's first all-kill was done by Legionaire, the mighty Aussie of BW!
One of the biggest things I notice constantly is lack of attention to upgrades. I watch the production tab like a hawk for this, these days. Routinely, a weapon or armour upgrade will finish and then you'll go 30-45 seconds before seeing the next level appear in the tab.
In fact I saw exactly this from Symbol the other night, and it potentially cost him a game, because in a decisive engagement, his upgrade finished near the middle of the engagement, instead of finishing 20+ seconds before it, if he had been on time.
Listen dudes, you can't pay any attention to what the Team Liquid BW community says if the level of play is higher or lower or whatever. That is a collection of people who time would do best to forget. They will figure out something dumb and aggravating to say when the opportunity arises.
But imagine if like all the Brood War monsters have been trying to say, play Mech TvP, and just that is how they do it. Maybe it would lose to Code S player TvP right now, but perhaps through segregation they can safely develop something that is fundamentally sound.
I just hope they've been figuring things out themselves at least as much as they have been reviewing replay and grinding out ladder.
they really, really aren't.
As protoss, I use 1, for my proxy pylon, and have that camera binded to "x", with shift-x to set it.
That is about it. What more should I use them for? I have used it for a "feedback trap" as well, my templar where I know a terran will drop.
I use Kambing's suggestion of spacebar for my rally point as Terran.
I also use base cameras, but building the habit of using them is unbelievably difficult.
That will get those f-keys for cameras up and running.
I like proleague's potential for metagaming compared to the king of the hill format
Two crashes mid-game this week
Maybe my faithful old computer is about to kick the bucket
f1->f8 for bases (in theory, but most maps I don't set past 4 or 5
and spacebar for rally
it's all down to you
smash this newbie so we don't have to watch any more pvt
his pvt is fucking godlike
e: also holy shit, i'm going to bring tastosis a shitload of new neckties
tumblr | instagram | twitter | steam
maybe next time make sure you have storm finished before you attack down your ramp
tumblr | instagram | twitter | steam
how many protoss need to get their teeth kicked in by all-ins and 2-base timings before they get their shit together
tumblr | instagram | twitter | steam
I didn't see that game, but scouting the 1/1/1 is difficult to do without robo, and robo is not really what you want when defending it. Immortal/Zealot works with absolute perfect control, but chargelot/phoenix is the proper counter. Except that if you can't scout the 1/1/1 without robo, you can't go for the chargelot phoenix.