The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
Please vote in the Forum Structure Poll. Polling will close at 2PM EST on January 21, 2025.
RaakamToo many years...CanadalandRegistered Userregular
I find that Graves's W is pretty good at helping with trades vs Draven. Wait for him to chuck his axe and go to catch it - E->Q->W, back up. Obviously doesn't work everytime and if their support is awake it's harder, but if you pull it off once/twice between 4 and 6, it helps. Before then, I don't tend to worry too much, since Graves's passive is pretty darn effective for trades.
I think my least favorite lane to deal with these days is Leona/Trist. I tend to pick Corki or Kog against those, though with Kog's health nerf and mana increase on R, I may stop playing him as AD bot altogether and run him as a straight AP mid.
My padherder they don't it be like it is but it do
So you're saying if the opposing AD is bad, you will beat him.
Ok.
Yes, which is exactly the same thing everybody going "OMG all you have to do to beat Draven is watch where his axes are going" is saying. If the Draven player is good, he's not going to let you punish him like that, and my point is he's specifically designed to be better in trades during laning than anybody except maybe Ezreal. Even if the opposing AD isn't bad, he can't keep you from walking up and harassing him or his support unless he just wants to get no CS. I don't play passive bot lanes and sit there and farm without trying to push out or kill the opponent, unless i'm in a bad matchup.
He won't get a chance to trade evenly with Kog'Maw if his W is up. I do think a good Draven can be scarey but I don't think it involves trading blows with his Q while trying to catch the axes. The damage tradeoff of you setting yourself up to catch an axe to harass (assuming it's totally safe because the Draven player is really pro at turning around and making them land far away) is great after a few levels but I'm on the side of "every CS counts" bottom lane. You're spacing yourself to catch axes instead of CS can potentially hurt you in the end. If I see an aggressive lane against me, I won't stick my head out until I know I can trade safely. My argument isn't that he's bad, it's that his Q design is bad for safely trading. If man mode won games all the time, it'd be a different meta.
So. Apparently Kennen is a good counter to Morg mid and through the entire game in teamfights.
I did not know that. I expected I'd be safe. I didn't expect I'd absolutely destroy her.
So I unlocked Alistar a long time ago (via facebook promo) and played him and thought "meh." Played him last night, figured how to headbutt->insta pulverize. Completely destroyed any bot lane I played against with any carry. A game with Alistar/Veigar bottom was probably the best one. Came to the conclusion: Alistar is amazing.
Note: I realize I'm probably late to the Mad Cow party, but I wanted to share my discovery.
So. Apparently Kennen is a good counter to Morg mid and through the entire game in teamfights.
I did not know that. I expected I'd be safe. I didn't expect I'd absolutely destroy her.
Pretty sure Kennen vs Morg is a skill match up that can very easily turn into a farm lane. Kennen can dodge most of Morg's abilities, and Morg should be able to shield his stuns and vamp back any damage she takes from minion waves.
0
KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
If I'm going to be playing Kog, I want someone on my team who can peel.
Kog/Nunu and Kog/Leona are my favorites so far, though a Kog/Lux lane can work well.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
0
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
Alistar is one of the strongest supports in the game. Great sustain, good burst, great CC, great initiation, great peels, great defense, great control.
Also, impulse buying at it's finest. Just got Malphite + Obsidian Skin; was on sale.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
So. Apparently Kennen is a good counter to Morg mid and through the entire game in teamfights.
I did not know that. I expected I'd be safe. I didn't expect I'd absolutely destroy her.
Pretty sure Kennen vs Morg is a skill match up that can very easily turn into a farm lane. Kennen can dodge most of Morg's abilities, and Morg should be able to shield his stuns and vamp back any damage she takes from minion waves.
You have a point. Though I was dodging her Q's with my E and Kennen's Q does more damage than her shield. But I can see how Kennen would suffer if caught.
I didn't get caught that game.
So you're saying if the opposing AD is bad, you will beat him.
Ok.
Yes, which is exactly the same thing everybody going "OMG all you have to do to beat Draven is watch where his axes are going" is saying. If the Draven player is good, he's not going to let you punish him like that, and my point is he's specifically designed to be better in trades during laning than anybody except maybe Ezreal. Even if the opposing AD isn't bad, he can't keep you from walking up and harassing him or his support unless he just wants to get no CS. I don't play passive bot lanes and sit there and farm without trying to push out or kill the opponent, unless i'm in a bad matchup.
He won't get a chance to trade evenly with Kog'Maw if his W is up. I do think a good Draven can be scarey but I don't think it involves trading blows with his Q while trying to catch the axes. The damage tradeoff of you setting yourself up to catch an axe to harass (assuming it's totally safe because the Draven player is really pro at turning around and making them land far away) is great after a few levels but I'm on the side of "every CS counts" bottom lane. You're spacing yourself to catch axes instead of CS can potentially hurt you in the end. If I see an aggressive lane against me, I won't stick my head out until I know I can trade safely. My argument isn't that he's bad, it's that his Q design is bad for safely trading. If man mode won games all the time, it'd be a different meta.
It's not just Draven's Q that makes him good at trading bot lane. It's his W as well. The move speed means you can close on them and get trades in against their will. His E sideknock and slow also helps here(and has awesome range and decent damage), and he's not nearly as mana hungry as some bots when using abilities heavily which helps too. I think Draven is a really good design honestly, because he has a high damage potential under good circumstances, and a solid kit even without them. His E and ult are both nice factors in team fights regardless of if you're catching all your axes, and if you leverage his strong laning to get ahead, not catching axes and having 100% W uptime doesn't hurt you as badly in team fights.
He's a bit like Ezreal honestly. Very strong early game, much weaker super late game than a Trist/Kog. You have to leverage the strength of his laning phase to get ahead.
Alistar is a scary jungler if you don't ward the right places and if you let him get early assist gold/exp. He's soooo easy to counter too though, and if he fails a couple ganks early he gets so far behind that your jungler can just go in his jungle and kill him or steal his farm.
Honestly, well played Alistar is the best bot lane support in the game, which is why he gets banned out at tourneys. He basically has a Leona E-Q combo that isn't a skillshot if you can land headbutt/pulv, which isn't hard once you know how to do it. And he has sustain with his heal. And his ult makes tanking a tower for kills easy peasy. It's pretty much impossible to out aggressive a bot lane with an Alistar.
The worst bot lane to face with Alistar is probably one with a good Nunu support, just because in trades his AD will have the AS steroid, and he'll AS debuff your AD so it's hard to go all in for a fight unless you have them low. That being said, I still go aggressive in this lane because I can heal and they can't.
So. Apparently Kennen is a good counter to Morg mid and through the entire game in teamfights.
I did not know that. I expected I'd be safe. I didn't expect I'd absolutely destroy her.
Pretty sure Kennen vs Morg is a skill match up that can very easily turn into a farm lane. Kennen can dodge most of Morg's abilities, and Morg should be able to shield his stuns and vamp back any damage she takes from minion waves.
You have a point. Though I was dodging her Q's with my E and Kennen's Q does more damage than her shield. But I can see how Kennen would suffer if caught.
I didn't get caught that game.
I think a good Kennen should bully Morg to her tower honestly. It would basically all depend on if you're dodging her bindings.
0
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
A good Alistar/X duo also makes Blitz very wary about making bad grabs at bottom.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
If I'm going to be playing Kog, I want someone on my team who can peel.
Kog/Nunu and Kog/Leona are my favorites so far, though a Kog/Lux lane can work well.
I won't even play Kog'maw unless my team has like an Alistar/Leona support and a Nautilus jungle, and I'm in a premade where I know my buddies know how to play protect the kog. In games where I don't know if I'm getting protected it's just so much easier to play Graves or Tristana.
A good Alistar/X duo also makes Blitz very wary about making bad grabs at bottom.
Yesterday I played a game as Sivir with a Soraka support against a Graves/Blitz. Many lols were had for me. Infinite mana and health and I'd just make sure I was the one in range for his grabs and spell shield them for mana every time. Was my first game ever as Sivir, trying her because someone on here graciously posted a pax skin for her which I swooped up, and it was fun as hell. We smoked them hard.
I played a game bot as Sivir vs a Caitlyn. She never realized that for Sivir, those traps are nice little gifts of Mana.
Hah, I hadn't thought of that. I think I may actually play around with Sivir a bit more. I enjoyed playing her, even if she doesn't have the raw late game power of the hyper carries. She's fun to play.
Oh this is golden. The enemy team's ap mid counterpicked themselves against my Vlad with a Karthus. Everyone wants to be TSM Reginald it seems.
We stole their Jungle's red at the start as a team, first blooded Karth at lvl1 (Cait got the kill), won every lane thanks to an awesome Lee Sin taking care of top and bot, and we eventually 5-tower pushed bot for the win and finished in 18.5 mins before they could surrender.
It's been a long time since I've won in <20mins. It's not easy. Most people like farming.
KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
edited June 2012
Sivir's a good pick if you have another person on the team that relies on auto-attacks to deal damage, thanks to her ult in teamfights, directly in the case of Jax or Tryndamere (top or jungle), or indirectly like AP Fizz (DoT on autos) and Skarner (autos reduce his cooldowns). Sivir/Taric is a MEAN early game lane thanks to Taric's stun making it easy to land a double Q, AA, W combo, and her ult plus his ult = lots of sustained damage to take down a tower/buff/dragon/etc quickly.
Her ult can also be used to beat Shurelia's (used offensively or defensively by the other team), or to backdoor turrets aggressively.
I played a game bot as Sivir vs a Caitlyn. She never realized that for Sivir, those traps are nice little gifts of Mana.
Hah, I hadn't thought of that. I think I may actually play around with Sivir a bit more. I enjoyed playing her, even if she doesn't have the raw late game power of the hyper carries. She's fun to play.
You should definately play Sivir more... Especially if you have that Pax Skin....
OK, painhouse coming up on Thursday, anyone have anything they REALLY want to play?
Fiora, top lane?
Actually, though this might have some issues, have people do callouts and maybe build rosters that way?
Pac and I have done that. "I can beat your Sivir mid as veigar and day of the week!" and we both went our respective champs / mid lane.
This would be in lieu of normal drafting, and assuming people have nearly as much honor as I do, they'll call out equivalently skilled players. It'll also create a mix of roles in teams too, because even when team 1 fights team 3 in the second game, you still have someone who declared a mid vs. someone who declared mid.
Feel free to dissect, just something I came up with on the spot.
OK, painhouse coming up on Thursday, anyone have anything they REALLY want to play?
Fiora, top lane?
Actually, though this might have some issues, have people do callouts and maybe build rosters that way?
Pac and I have done that. "I can beat your Sivir mid as veigar and day of the week!" and we both went our respective champs / mid lane.
This would be in lieu of normal drafting, and assuming people have nearly as much honor as I do, they'll call out equivalently skilled players. It'll also create a mix of roles in teams too, because even when team 1 fights team 3 in the second game, you still have someone who declared a mid vs. someone who declared mid.
Feel free to dissect, just something I came up with on the spot.
Haha, it was your Annie, not your Veigar!
Also, @Draygo sorry about last night. My entire house internet went down for 5 hours =\
Draven does appear to be only good in teamfights if no bruiser can get close and CC him. Pairing him with Soraka/Janna in the lane is pretty fantastic because you simply outpoke every other ranged champion with the axe. Kogmaw's/Ashes cant run away since he moves faster than them. I can't say I'd play him seriously though since it is way too hard to grab more than 1 axe in a teamfight.
I played a game bot as Sivir vs a Caitlyn. She never realized that for Sivir, those traps are nice little gifts of Mana.
Hah, I hadn't thought of that. I think I may actually play around with Sivir a bit more. I enjoyed playing her, even if she doesn't have the raw late game power of the hyper carries. She's fun to play.
You should definately play Sivir more... Especially if you have that Pax Skin....
(I'm Jealous)
I am definitely going to. It was my first time playing her and I really enjoyed it. I do pretty well at AD, and I usually rotate through different champs to keep it fresh. I think Caitlyn and MF are the only ones I haven't really played now. I always end up going back to my favorites in Graves and Tristana, but Sivir might make me play her more, her kit is great fun and that skin is sick.
Draven does appear to be only good in teamfights if no bruiser can get close and CC him. Pairing him with Soraka/Janna in the lane is pretty fantastic because you simply outpoke every other ranged champion with the axe. Kogmaw's/Ashes cant run away since he moves faster than them. I can't say I'd play him seriously though since it is way too hard to grab more than 1 axe in a teamfight.
Every AD is only good in teamfights if your team doesn't let the other team's anti carries get on your face. Between his move speed steroid and his E sideknock/slow, he's really not any worse off than most ADs at repositioning in team fights, not counting the ones with ridiculous repositions like Tristana and Corki.
I maintain that you only play Draven when you would play Ezreal. That is, when you are planning on winning your bot lane hard and ending the game while you're ahead. That's how I approach it when I play him, and it's worked out well.
Okay you doofus Xin. When your entire rest of your team is pinging and chatting you to stay with us because we're going to teamfight, it's not the time to ignore them for a minute and a half to farm bot because you -have- to get 15-20 more cs. Thank you for forfeiting our entire positioning and initiation chance and not listing to the four cycle repeated pings.
Nothing worse than the lone ranger who goes bot to farm when a team fight is on the verge of breaking out. Any good opposing team is going to Shurelya's and start that fight as soon as they see it. IMO, after learning how to lane, the next hardest thing people seem to have problems grasping is what to do once laning is over and it's objective protection/team fighting time.
Posts
I think my least favorite lane to deal with these days is Leona/Trist. I tend to pick Corki or Kog against those, though with Kog's health nerf and mana increase on R, I may stop playing him as AD bot altogether and run him as a straight AP mid.
they don't it be like it is but it do
He won't get a chance to trade evenly with Kog'Maw if his W is up. I do think a good Draven can be scarey but I don't think it involves trading blows with his Q while trying to catch the axes. The damage tradeoff of you setting yourself up to catch an axe to harass (assuming it's totally safe because the Draven player is really pro at turning around and making them land far away) is great after a few levels but I'm on the side of "every CS counts" bottom lane. You're spacing yourself to catch axes instead of CS can potentially hurt you in the end. If I see an aggressive lane against me, I won't stick my head out until I know I can trade safely. My argument isn't that he's bad, it's that his Q design is bad for safely trading. If man mode won games all the time, it'd be a different meta.
I did not know that. I expected I'd be safe. I didn't expect I'd absolutely destroy her.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
don't have to worry about catching axes then, just go back to farming until you get another opportunity
Note: I realize I'm probably late to the Mad Cow party, but I wanted to share my discovery.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Pretty sure Kennen vs Morg is a skill match up that can very easily turn into a farm lane. Kennen can dodge most of Morg's abilities, and Morg should be able to shield his stuns and vamp back any damage she takes from minion waves.
Kog/Nunu and Kog/Leona are my favorites so far, though a Kog/Lux lane can work well.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Also, impulse buying at it's finest. Just got Malphite + Obsidian Skin; was on sale.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
You have a point. Though I was dodging her Q's with my E and Kennen's Q does more damage than her shield. But I can see how Kennen would suffer if caught.
I didn't get caught that game.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
It's not just Draven's Q that makes him good at trading bot lane. It's his W as well. The move speed means you can close on them and get trades in against their will. His E sideknock and slow also helps here(and has awesome range and decent damage), and he's not nearly as mana hungry as some bots when using abilities heavily which helps too. I think Draven is a really good design honestly, because he has a high damage potential under good circumstances, and a solid kit even without them. His E and ult are both nice factors in team fights regardless of if you're catching all your axes, and if you leverage his strong laning to get ahead, not catching axes and having 100% W uptime doesn't hurt you as badly in team fights.
He's a bit like Ezreal honestly. Very strong early game, much weaker super late game than a Trist/Kog. You have to leverage the strength of his laning phase to get ahead.
This was going to be my goal for the next time I play. Try out jungle bovine.
Honestly, well played Alistar is the best bot lane support in the game, which is why he gets banned out at tourneys. He basically has a Leona E-Q combo that isn't a skillshot if you can land headbutt/pulv, which isn't hard once you know how to do it. And he has sustain with his heal. And his ult makes tanking a tower for kills easy peasy. It's pretty much impossible to out aggressive a bot lane with an Alistar.
The worst bot lane to face with Alistar is probably one with a good Nunu support, just because in trades his AD will have the AS steroid, and he'll AS debuff your AD so it's hard to go all in for a fight unless you have them low. That being said, I still go aggressive in this lane because I can heal and they can't.
I think a good Kennen should bully Morg to her tower honestly. It would basically all depend on if you're dodging her bindings.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I won't even play Kog'maw unless my team has like an Alistar/Leona support and a Nautilus jungle, and I'm in a premade where I know my buddies know how to play protect the kog. In games where I don't know if I'm getting protected it's just so much easier to play Graves or Tristana.
Yesterday I played a game as Sivir with a Soraka support against a Graves/Blitz. Many lols were had for me. Infinite mana and health and I'd just make sure I was the one in range for his grabs and spell shield them for mana every time. Was my first game ever as Sivir, trying her because someone on here graciously posted a pax skin for her which I swooped up, and it was fun as hell. We smoked them hard.
Hah, I hadn't thought of that. I think I may actually play around with Sivir a bit more. I enjoyed playing her, even if she doesn't have the raw late game power of the hyper carries. She's fun to play.
We stole their Jungle's red at the start as a team, first blooded Karth at lvl1 (Cait got the kill), won every lane thanks to an awesome Lee Sin taking care of top and bot, and we eventually 5-tower pushed bot for the win and finished in 18.5 mins before they could surrender.
It's been a long time since I've won in <20mins. It's not easy. Most people like farming.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Her ult can also be used to beat Shurelia's (used offensively or defensively by the other team), or to backdoor turrets aggressively.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Fiora, top lane?
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
(I'm Jealous)
PA Inhouse = painhouse
That event we do every thursday.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Actually, though this might have some issues, have people do callouts and maybe build rosters that way?
Pac and I have done that. "I can beat your Sivir mid as veigar and day of the week!" and we both went our respective champs / mid lane.
This would be in lieu of normal drafting, and assuming people have nearly as much honor as I do, they'll call out equivalently skilled players. It'll also create a mix of roles in teams too, because even when team 1 fights team 3 in the second game, you still have someone who declared a mid vs. someone who declared mid.
Feel free to dissect, just something I came up with on the spot.
Sounds painful.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
It's actually quite a bit of fun so long as you don't take it as srs bsns.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
You're gonna have to chat draft and bans can be used so the other team wont give you champs you hate!
A team not having enough players owning a specific champ might complicate things but it shouldn't come up too much, I think.
Or at least let the other team pick which player plays which role~
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Haha, it was your Annie, not your Veigar!
Also, @Draygo sorry about last night. My entire house internet went down for 5 hours =\
I am definitely going to. It was my first time playing her and I really enjoyed it. I do pretty well at AD, and I usually rotate through different champs to keep it fresh. I think Caitlyn and MF are the only ones I haven't really played now. I always end up going back to my favorites in Graves and Tristana, but Sivir might make me play her more, her kit is great fun and that skin is sick.
Every AD is only good in teamfights if your team doesn't let the other team's anti carries get on your face. Between his move speed steroid and his E sideknock/slow, he's really not any worse off than most ADs at repositioning in team fights, not counting the ones with ridiculous repositions like Tristana and Corki.
I maintain that you only play Draven when you would play Ezreal. That is, when you are planning on winning your bot lane hard and ending the game while you're ahead. That's how I approach it when I play him, and it's worked out well.
/headdesk
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //