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"The Wii is a piece of shit!"

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Posts

  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    What's this guy's problem?

    What's wrong with variety? Why should every gaming system be exactly the same?


    Want to make a game with his so-called, precious 'advanced AI' and advanced graphics, do a 360 or PS3 game.


    Would he have been happy if the Wii were exactly like the 360/PS3? Souped up and really expensive?



    Last time I heard, they were putting Spore on cell phones anyway.

    slash000 on
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Kor wrote: »
    10 internet cookies says Friday's comic is based around this subject.

    You're on doggy.

    Marathon on
  • ZackSchillingZackSchilling Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magus` wrote: »
    Like, what's stopping enemies from just going into a place you can't reach and take pot shots? It'd be more realistic as no one in real life would just stand there and fire at you.

    That's funny, because players do that to enemies all the time.

    ZackSchilling on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    If spore isn't doable on the Wii, it's not because of the graphics but because of the sheer amount of stuff that goes on in that game.

    Such as? Each of the animals is only a few kilobytes of data.
    Wright mentioned in an interview given at E3 2006 that the information necessary to generate an entire creature would be only a couple of kilobytes, according to Wright, who presented the following analogy: "think of it as sharing the DNA template of a creature while the game, like a womb, builds the 'phenotypes' of the animal, which represent a few megabytes of texturing, animation, etc".

    It won't have to render the entire universe at once.

    Couscous on
  • Smacky The FrogSmacky The Frog Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, don't you have an entire galaxy to play around in with that game? Can't you zoom in to each little planet and see what its inhabitants are doing? It does seem like something that can't be handled with the Wii's specs.

    Smacky The Frog on
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  • PataPata Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    VIDEO GAMES ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS PEOPLE.

    THE WII IS NOT SERIOUS BUSINESS.

    THEREFORE THE WII IS NOT A VIDEO GAME MACHINE

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, don't you have an entire galaxy to play around in with that game? Can't you zoom in to each little planet and see what its inhabitants are doing? It does seem like something that can't be handled with the Wii's specs.

    Yes, but it could pop it up as it came along. It doesn't have to render the microscopic level at the same time as the space levels. If you zoom in on a planet, you aren't going to need to render the other planets.

    Couscous on
  • Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Magus` wrote: »
    Like, what's stopping enemies from just going into a place you can't reach and take pot shots? It'd be more realistic as no one in real life would just stand there and fire at you.

    That's funny, because players do that to enemies all the time.

    I know they do. The fact that they don't give the AI enough ability to 'think' to do that works in your favour.

    Imagine how much harder every FPS would be if every enemy you encountered hid behind stuff. Or, even better, if they realized how much more damage you could take and somehow work that into new strategies.

    Magus` on
  • TerrorbyteTerrorbyte __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    If spore isn't doable on the Wii, it's not because of the graphics but because of the sheer amount of stuff that goes on in that game.

    Such as? Each of the animals is only a few kilobytes of data.

    The file sizes are small, but it requires some serious horsepower to bring that stuff to life. You have a skeletal and muscular subsystem, then the skin, then the detail and textures, then the lighting, then the MASSIVE scope of the game world and the need to recall all of that in real time. Once you start adding the physics, the artificial intelligence, the constant strain of procedural content and on and on and on, the Wii just can't pull it off. Hell, the high-end PC Wright has demoed it on shows strain at times.

    In short: The animals are a few kilobytes of data because tons of stuff is procedurally generated using complex algorithms. Said algorithms still need serious horsepower.

    Terrorbyte on
  • chubschubs Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    The_Cheese wrote: »
    Shield bash is a forward motion. The spin attack is a left and right shaking motion.

    I can see how you would confuse them, though.

    Minor correction: the shield bash is performed by flicking your wrist, much like you do with the remote while fishing. It's still a foward motion (as per the description) but early on I was pushing the nunchuck forward and couldn't get consistent results.

    Yes.

    It's really not that complicated. You hold the remote vertically and flick it forward. I got it almost immediately, and it consistently works. I wish they had made this clearer, because almost every time I hear someone complaining about Wii Zelda controls, they up the fact that "sheild bash never works".

    Also, I've wondered this for a while. How much of an effect does the power of the console really have on the enemy AI in games? We got some pretty good AI last generation, and I haven't seen anything better so far. Will the Wii really be at that much of a disadvantage here?

    chubs on
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, don't you have an entire galaxy to play around in with that game? Can't you zoom in to each little planet and see what its inhabitants are doing? It does seem like something that can't be handled with the Wii's specs.

    I was doing galaxy to planet in MoO. Again, I would hope to God the Wii is more powerful than -that-.

    He's specifically shitting on the CPU for AI routine space. Okay, so how complex of an AI does Spore need? Is it because it's running multiple copies of the AI at once? Or is it a lot of hardware/RAM calls as it transfers data back and forth?

    If you were still allowed to control the cellular while you were running intergalactic war machines, then yes I can understand where he is coming from. But a PC couldn't handle that either. It makes more sense that as the scale of the game goes up, the bottom scope falls out and goes transparent. This game ain't going to be simulating the evolutions of viruses while you are shooting lasers at other spacefaring civilizations.

    Edit: Terror, if Wright's demo PC's couldn't handle it, then this game is already a commercial failure. It's the sad truth.. but you have to play to the lowest common denominator, not the highest.

    Athenor on
    He/Him | "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." - Dr. Johnetta Cole, 7/22/2024
  • Smacky The FrogSmacky The Frog Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Personally I'm not worried about Spore not being on the Wii at all. I'm sure there will be plenty of viable platforms to play that game on.

    Smacky The Frog on
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  • MarlorMarlor Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    For the record, the first time my jaw dropped due to some wacky AI algorithm was when a guard in Return to Castle Wolfenstein kicked a grenade back at me. I hear the Nazis in the original Medal of Honor even jumped on live grenades.

    That sort of "AI" is totally scripted and isn't CPU-intensive at all. In fact, I think that most AI for action games would be pretty easy on the CPU.

    The type of AI that takes a lot of CPU resources is symbolic reasoning and building decision trees. If each entity in the game has their own individual symbolic representation of the environment, and uses some form of reasoning algorithm to choose their course of action from a dynamically generated decision tree, then this will (of course) take up a lot of CPU-time.

    This sort of approach was taken, to some extent, with Oblivion's "Radiant AI", and is used in many strategy games.

    But this sort of thing is rarely required for action games. The better approach for those sorts of games where quick "decisions" are required is to hard-code in a reactive AI system that simply selects from a series of pre-determined scripts. By combining well-designed scripts with a semi-random selection algorithm, you should be able to get really impressive AI with very little burden on the CPU.

    Marlor on
    Mario Kart Wii: 1332-8060-5236 (Aaron)
  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    What I find most amusing about this entire thread, is the guy never, EVER, said that the Wii sucked because Spore couldn't run on it.

    He said it sucked because really complex AI algorithms can't run on it. And it probably can't. Don't go getting your panties in a wad people.

    SniperGuy on
  • TerrorbyteTerrorbyte __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2007
    ...the guy never, EVER, said that the Wii sucked because Spore couldn't run on it ... He said it sucked because really complex AI algorithms can't run on it.

    Complex AI algorithms like the ones Spore has?

    Terrorbyte on
  • PataPata Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Terrorbyte wrote: »
    ...the guy never, EVER, said that the Wii sucked because Spore couldn't run on it ... He said it sucked because really complex AI algorithms can't run on it.

    Complex AI algorithms like the ones Spore has?

    And you know this how?

    Tell me, are you on the team who's making Spore? Or perhaps EA hired you to work on the Wii version?

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Terrorbyte wrote: »
    ...the guy never, EVER, said that the Wii sucked because Spore couldn't run on it ... He said it sucked because really complex AI algorithms can't run on it.

    Complex AI algorithms like the ones Spore has?

    Like the ones you think it has because you've totally played the game.

    SniperGuy on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    So how many games use complex AI algorithms?

    Couscous on
  • CaswynbenCaswynben Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Here's an anecdote : most video games, even those on 360 and PS3, don't have AI at all! Their decisions are immediately evident to them, as their choices are very very limited!

    Caswynben on
  • luckeeluckee Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    great f'ing thread. I lol'd a couple times.

    luckee on
    Doctorus Experimentus
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited March 2007
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    What I find most amusing about this entire thread, is the guy never, EVER, said that the Wii sucked because Spore couldn't run on it.

    He said it sucked because really complex AI algorithms can't run on it. And it probably can't. Don't go getting your panties in a wad people.

    Not to mention that about 3 people even seem to have any semblance of a clue what the GDC rants are normally like. This is pretty much par for the course for the last half decade.

    Aroduc on
  • MikestaMikesta Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I'll say this: any company that requires state-of-the-art technology to make a good game probably isn't a very good developer. The quality of a game's gameplay isn't governed by the hardware it fucking runs on. Someone buy this man a clue.

    Maybe he should play Cave Story. That's some of the best gameplay I've ever experienced, and that game's file is like 2 megs in size.

    And this is why PC developers often piss me off. So much emphasis is placed on graphics and bleeding edge technology that, at least with PCs, I get less fun for my buck than I do with consoles.

    Hopefully, I haven't just started a PC vs. console flame war.

    Mikesta on
    untitled.jpg

    You mess with the dolphin, you get the nose.
  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    God DAMNIT. Sure Cave Story may be good, but it sure as hell isn't gonna have someone acting instictvely and all that fun jazz, right? The point the guy was trying to make was that the Wii simply doesn't hold up to being able to create really next gen games in the ways of AI and whatnot. Sure, you can still have a fun game, but almost all of the concepts have been exhausted for our current tech. The Wii simply chose to go for motion sensing, rather than go for advanced AI.

    SniperGuy on
  • Captain KCaptain K Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    So, do we really care what this tool said? Is there any good reason to keep this thread going, or is it just a powder keg waiting to go off?

    Captain K on
  • MarlorMarlor Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Caswynben wrote: »
    Here's an anecdote : most video games, even those on 360 and PS3, don't have AI at all! Their decisions are immediately evident to them, as their choices are very very limited!

    Well, that's still AI. It may be totally reactive, but it's still classed as an AI system.

    In most games, complex reasoning-based AI isn't needed. Scripted reactions will give better performance and will actually create a more "realistic" AI.

    In strategy games, things are different. Many strategy games can essentially be reduced to being a fancy board-game, and can be attacked using similar techniques. So, in these cases, you would want a fast CPU and lots of RAM so that you can build decision trees.

    Marlor on
    Mario Kart Wii: 1332-8060-5236 (Aaron)
  • MikestaMikesta Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    God DAMNIT. Sure Cave Story may be good, but it sure as hell isn't gonna have someone acting instictvely and all that fun jazz, right? The point the guy was trying to make was that the Wii simply doesn't hold up to being able to create really next gen games in the ways of AI and whatnot. Sure, you can still have a fun game, but almost all of the concepts have been exhausted for our current tech. The Wii simply chose to go for motion sensing, rather than go for advanced AI.
    That's all good and well, and I understand that he was talking specifically about complex AI routines. However, what he said was, if I'm not mistaken, "The Wii is a piece of shit!" That's an all encompassing statement, and if his only defense is that it can't produce complex AI, then he's making a weak argument and he needs to shut the hell up.

    Mikesta on
    untitled.jpg

    You mess with the dolphin, you get the nose.
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited March 2007
    Captain K wrote: »
    So, do we really care what this tool said? Is there any good reason to keep this thread going, or is it just a powder keg waiting to go off?

    Given that almost nobody understands the context, probably the latter.

    Aroduc on
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The Wii IS underpowered. It's not graphics alone, the CPU itself isn't going to be able to handle all the current-gen plans for A.I. We all knew it wouldn't be able to swallow down a really heavy-duty Havok 3 app, but to add some of the A.I. a lot of these developers have planned on top?

    Solly, cholly, the Wii is cool and I'm glad I've got one, but the fucker is NOT a powerhouse. Just because the guy is pissed the machine can't process 1.21 jiggaflops of power doesn't mean his point isn't valid.

    jungleroomx on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Marlor wrote: »
    Caswynben wrote: »
    Here's an anecdote : most video games, even those on 360 and PS3, don't have AI at all! Their decisions are immediately evident to them, as their choices are very very limited!

    Well, that's still AI. It may be totally reactive, but it's still classed as an AI system.

    In most games, complex reasoning-based AI isn't needed. Scripted reactions will give better performance and will actually create a more "realistic" AI.

    In strategy games, things are different. Many strategy games can essentially be reduced to being a fancy board-game, and can be attacked using similar techniques. So, in these cases, you would want a fast CPU and lots of RAM so that you can build decision trees.

    So other than a few types of games, it really isn't that useful?

    Couscous on
  • Captain KCaptain K Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Scrolling back a couple of pages, it doesn't seem like this thread is really going anywhere... it's just everybody either agreeing with the Spore guy or vehemently disagreeing with him.


    So, read the link in the OP and decide for yourself whether you think he's a dweeb, but I'm locking this because it seems like nothing particularly great can come from this thread while a lot of disaster just might.

    Captain K on
This discussion has been closed.