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USA and Israel at [Cyberwar] with Iran
Mazlo
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
You might remember news about Stuxnet. You might remember suspicions that the US or Israel was behind the malware which targeted centrifuges in Iranian nuclear facilities. Those suspicions have now been "confirmed" by the press. See http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/middleeast/obama-ordered-wave-of-cyberattacks-against-iran.html?_r=1 and http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/confirmed-us-israel-created-stuxnet-lost-control-of-it/
I think one interesting part of this is the USA reserving the right to go to physical war with anyone that makes a cyber attack against the USA... but then at the same time covertly develops and deploys targeted malware against another nation.
This feels much more serious to me than what the press are making it out to be though -- I shutter to think at the kinds of cyberattacks that may be developed and targeted at the USA and then really shutter at how congress might respond (really bad regulation, physical war?)
I think one interesting part of this is the USA reserving the right to go to physical war with anyone that makes a cyber attack against the USA... but then at the same time covertly develops and deploys targeted malware against another nation.
This feels much more serious to me than what the press are making it out to be though -- I shutter to think at the kinds of cyberattacks that may be developed and targeted at the USA and then really shutter at how congress might respond (really bad regulation, physical war?)
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Well, it's not news, but it does continue to be depressing.
Still shitty, and we're still hypocrites for it, but I'm not shaking with outrage or anything.
I shudder to think what the alternatives would be.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/06/01/american-exceptionalism-2/
It's unquestionably American hypocrisy. I just think being hypocrites is more desirable than either another war in the middle East or Iran getting nuclear weapons. Maybe this is a false dichotomy, but the former has a history of happening and the latter is just good for nobody.
The liberal counterpoint to American exceptionalism is the idea that we are the worst ones, or even the only ones who are bad.
When called out on the bullshit, the defense is always "Well we should be better."
And everyone else shouldn't?
Agreed.
If you're locked in a room with a person who has stated a desire to kill you, and you have two guns on your person, it's not hypocrisy to not offer that person one of your guns to even things out.
"Oh, what? You won't let me carry one gun but you get TWO guns?"
Yes. Yes we do. Because we don't deny the holocaust, or support religious genocide, or oppress our citizenry to a barbaric degree. We have the moral authority to deprive you and surveil you when you continue to show an inability to be reasonable and trustworthy.
Yeah the US has a ton of moral authority after Iraq.
Over places like China and Iran? You're damn fucking skippy we do.
Well, I can show myself the door then.
I don't think ambiguous moral superiority is a reasonable enough justification for going to war and violating state sovereignty.
And when China stops trying to hack our stuff maybe I'll start feeling bad about this.
They just want the capacity for MAD, I don't see why they can't have it but we can. Think of the precedent this sets as well, what kind of international community is this if the big bully is going to dick around all willy-nilly whenever he wants?
Well for one we don't hand nukes over to terror cells, and you can bet your bottom dollar that Iran will if it gets one.
It's notunpossible for a nuke to go off in a terrorist attack some day. But that becomes a lot more likely the minute Iran has the bomb. You're also missing the point that the entire Western world is behind us here. This isn't the US going rogue and it's disingenuous to act like it is.
Because:
- we have no assurances and cannot reasonably assume MAD would prevent a heavily religious government from engaging in mass destruction.
- calling the free democracy a "bully" for "dicking around" with the genocidal theocracies is absurd.
- there's a zero percent chance any western state will ever nuke the middle east, where oil comes from.
Do you also not understand why some people can have guns but others can't?
Edit: And the precedent was set centuries ago when one, bigger group told another group to cut their shit.
Or maybe we should take the genocidal theocracy who supports terror groups and threatens to destroy a handful of peaceful nations on a routine basis at their word? No?
As long as you are pretending that you are the upholders of Freedom and Justice and all that other bullshit you like to believe... yes, you should be better.
Some of us don't pretend that.
Nor does Iran actually have nuclear weapons, nor do most think they have a nuclear weapons program. Instead, the idea goes, Iran is trying to achieve break-out capacity. So they'd have the tech and the uranium to be able to start a nuclear weapons program if they wanted to. That is what the US is acting against here.
Also the idea of Israel being a "peaceful" nation in the region is absolutely adorable.
I love how this subforum has had several threads on Iran in the past year, and despite each one we have the same crop of people barreling in here playing armchair moralist about how wild and crazy and unpredictable they are.
When Americans are asserting the high ground, expect people to start dying. Lots of them.
No one is in here cheerleading a war. We're saying we're not suffering Moral Outrage over cyberwarfare.
We are engaged in cyberwarfare every day and have been for at least a decade. We haven't gone to war with China yet, so I'm failing to see what's so horrific.
Honestly, I have a hard time gathering any outrage over this. Maybe I'm just too realpolitik in my thinking, but this is the kind of shit nations do. We would have done all this same shit with the Soviets if there had been internet in the USSR. Being upset over this is like being upset that some of the people at embassies with diplomatic immunity are in fact spies.
You're right, you're not cheerleading war. And I still stand by everything I wrote. It's not about you, it's about America.
No, I know. I don't like the drumming of war anymore than the next sane person, I was just pointing out that this particular subject isn't as dire as some are making it seem.
And yet large groups of people claiming that America is the bastion of all evil on the face of the Earth has never prevented any wars or deaths.
First lets look at the region. Iran is one of the most populous countries with a regime that has rhetorically been aggressive towards the US's biggest allies. These include Israel, Saudi Arabia and other Sunni countries the US uses for bases. This region is so important to the US vital interest that anything that shifts the balance of power toward one side is seen as dangerous. The US not wanting Iran to have a nuclear weapon when you think about has little to do with direct self defence but with defending foreign interest.
Iran wants a nuke for very similar reasons. The US in the last decade has invaded one state who did not have nukes. Helped overthrow another(Libya). And have been able to put considerable pressure on Iran for having a program. Iran becoming a nuclear capable state puts them on a footing where they could negotiate themselves out of sanctions and improve their reach in the region. Also provides a deterrence from the US invading Iran. An action which is highly unlikely unless you get the Neo-Cons in power again. It doesn't help that the current regime has built national legitimacy by saying no to the US and the rest of the world when it comes to its program.
So with this in mind both sides are acting as rational actors. Cyber-warfare is a much safer way for the US to achieve its goals without having blow back on its allies. Especially Israel. Which I think you would realize even more why the Israelis are scared shitless of Iran gaining the bomb.
Taking at look at the potential NAT index if Iran gains a weapon.
FP article on this. Though states we should focus more on Pakistan.
I see cyber-warfare a lesser evil at this moment. And I don't see it as we shouldn't do it on moral grounds. The realist in me says this is a good move on the board. The English School person in me is meh on it. It isn't in the legal realm but it makes sense in a nation verse nation world. And it wouldn't surprise me if the Iranians aren't trying the same thing against the USA. I think the, "this is morally wrong and the USA should be better than this" argument is getting old. The USA is a state like any other state. It takes actions to defend its interest as a rational actor and that is this was.
Stripping out the absurd hyperbole from your post, I think it is sensible to conclude that the possibility of international condemnation does prevent some of the worst excesses of hawkish US foreign policy.
Yes, claiming that America is evil has not prevented wars. And the America-bashing-American-left has the same political power as Marxist Atheists In Favor of Paying College Athletes. It exists on the internet and protests that go nowhere.
American exceptionalism, however, is a real political force and institution that is the bedrock for any American war of choice. Like the one that happened no 10 years ago, and hundreds of thousands of people were killed in.
What can I say about the former? They're annoying? They're annoying.
As has already been pointed out: where Iran is concerned, that condemnation does not exist. At least not towards our current iran policy.
It would if you nuked the fuck out of them, though.
Not even the Republicans would do that.
Plus, engaging in this type of cyberwarfare allows us to effectively halt the operations of a group that would like to weaken the USA without having to engage in guns and tanks warfare.
I'd rather we mess with Iran and be wrong about their nuclear intentions than not and wake up to them capable of creating nuclear weapons.