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Tenant Liability Question
Dignified Pauper
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So, long story short, I'm an idiot, but one who is responsible.
I have been living in a room of a house with a landlord and her fiance since December of 2010. I rent an attic space and have shared access to the rest of the home. There is one bathroom.
In this bathroom, there is a sink, and recently, the sink has been slow to drain. We all use this sink, so the landlord is well aware of the situation, but the sink is not unusable and I rarely use it except to wash my hands after using the restroom. I brush my teeth and shave in the shower.
One night, May 19, while inebriated, I used the restroom and washed my hands and forgot to turn the water off. Naturally, this flooded the bathroom and fell through the floor into the kitchen, damaging ceiling tiles, and then settled into the hardwood floor of the kitchen, causing it to swell slightly.
I contacted my renter's insurance who paid to have a professional cleaning company come and dry the floors professionally. My renter's insurance covers up to $100,000 of actual cash value (so, the damages, minus depreciation of the cost of materials) in the case where I am liable. I understand that despite the slow drain, I am ultimately responsible.
Because the professional dryers had to remove bathroom tile to get to the wood underneath, they had to remove some of the tiles. The tiles were Travertine, 12x12 squares.
My insurance adjuster came and reviewed the damages on the Thursday prior to Memorial Day. I advised my landlord/roomie that my insurance would be in contact with her and they would work it out. My landlord then stated that this was my responsibility to fix and make her whole. It is my understanding, as well as advised to me by my insurance, that this is her responsibility to fix.
The following Tuesday, after the long holiday weekend, my landlord emails me asking for updates to the process. I advise that I am surprised my insurance has not called her yet. I contact my insurance and they are still working on the estimate and will have it ready the next day, Wednesday.
The estimate is given to my landlord and I was also given it over for review. My insurance company stated that, legally, I have done all that I am required to do and it is up to my landlord to resolve any further issues. She offered the settlement, and my landlord has yet to accept it. The total evaluated damages was $2005.somechange and the insurance offered her $1871.somechange after depreciation is factored in.
In an act of good faith, I contacted the cleaning company that professionally dried everything and asked if they had any recommendations for a flooring tile specialist. They gave me a recommendation and I passed that along to my landlord. Their estimate came back higher than the total settlement to the tune of $2200, so obviously my landlord is upset.
At this point, she has threatened legal action. I can find no Ohio laws or cases where I can see what the precedent for this situation is, though the law seems ambiguous and vague. I'm not certain where to find court cases. My insurance company will defend me as part of my policy, but I want this to be a smooth situation and am trying to make this right for my landlord to be compensated fairly. I have emailed my insurance company this information, but am also looking for more information about any further liability I may have.
As I understand Ohio Law, this is the following information that I believe would be responsible in governing any legal action:
She never notified her home-owners insurance, and she pays a mortgage on the home as well. At this point, I'm certain my insurance probably low-balled her, which I know is between her and them.
I began searching for a place at the beginning of May and secured a place in Mid-May, before this incident occurred. I gave a 60 day notice on June 1, plus June's rent, May's utilities, and the depreciation difference from the original estimate. (this last amount was not required by me, but a gesture of goodwill). Technically, I can move into the other place at any time, and I am only required in the lease to give a 45 day notice, but I wanted to give my landlord ample time to find another renter.
It's not that I do not feel bad about the situation, but I will not be bullied. I know there's a lot of PAers and probably someone who has gone through a similar experience, so just looking for advice and venting about the situation.
I have contacted my insurance with this updated development, and am now waiting to hear back via email about everything.
I have been living in a room of a house with a landlord and her fiance since December of 2010. I rent an attic space and have shared access to the rest of the home. There is one bathroom.
In this bathroom, there is a sink, and recently, the sink has been slow to drain. We all use this sink, so the landlord is well aware of the situation, but the sink is not unusable and I rarely use it except to wash my hands after using the restroom. I brush my teeth and shave in the shower.
One night, May 19, while inebriated, I used the restroom and washed my hands and forgot to turn the water off. Naturally, this flooded the bathroom and fell through the floor into the kitchen, damaging ceiling tiles, and then settled into the hardwood floor of the kitchen, causing it to swell slightly.
I contacted my renter's insurance who paid to have a professional cleaning company come and dry the floors professionally. My renter's insurance covers up to $100,000 of actual cash value (so, the damages, minus depreciation of the cost of materials) in the case where I am liable. I understand that despite the slow drain, I am ultimately responsible.
Because the professional dryers had to remove bathroom tile to get to the wood underneath, they had to remove some of the tiles. The tiles were Travertine, 12x12 squares.
My insurance adjuster came and reviewed the damages on the Thursday prior to Memorial Day. I advised my landlord/roomie that my insurance would be in contact with her and they would work it out. My landlord then stated that this was my responsibility to fix and make her whole. It is my understanding, as well as advised to me by my insurance, that this is her responsibility to fix.
The following Tuesday, after the long holiday weekend, my landlord emails me asking for updates to the process. I advise that I am surprised my insurance has not called her yet. I contact my insurance and they are still working on the estimate and will have it ready the next day, Wednesday.
The estimate is given to my landlord and I was also given it over for review. My insurance company stated that, legally, I have done all that I am required to do and it is up to my landlord to resolve any further issues. She offered the settlement, and my landlord has yet to accept it. The total evaluated damages was $2005.somechange and the insurance offered her $1871.somechange after depreciation is factored in.
In an act of good faith, I contacted the cleaning company that professionally dried everything and asked if they had any recommendations for a flooring tile specialist. They gave me a recommendation and I passed that along to my landlord. Their estimate came back higher than the total settlement to the tune of $2200, so obviously my landlord is upset.
At this point, she has threatened legal action. I can find no Ohio laws or cases where I can see what the precedent for this situation is, though the law seems ambiguous and vague. I'm not certain where to find court cases. My insurance company will defend me as part of my policy, but I want this to be a smooth situation and am trying to make this right for my landlord to be compensated fairly. I have emailed my insurance company this information, but am also looking for more information about any further liability I may have.
As I understand Ohio Law, this is the following information that I believe would be responsible in governing any legal action:
Chapter 5321: Landlords and Tenants
5321.04 (A) (4) under Landlord Obligations: Maintain in good and safe working order and conditional all electrical, plumbing, sanitary, heating, ventilating and air conditioning fixtures and appliances, and elevators, supplied or required to be supplied
5321.05 (A) (4) under Tenant Obligations: Use and operate all electrical and plumbing fixtures properly.
5321.05 (6) under Tenant Obligations: Personally refreain and forbid any other person who is on the premises with his/her permission from intentionally or negligently destroying, defacing, damaging or removing any fixture, appliance or other part of the premises.
5321.11: Failure of tenant to fulfill obligations - remedies to Landlord
If the tenant fails to fulfill any obligation imposed upon him by section 5321.05 of the Revised Code that materially affects health and safety, other than the obligation described in division (A)(9) of that section, the landlord may deliver a written notice of this fact to the tenant specifying the act or omission that constitutes noncompliance with the pertinent obligations and specifying that the rental agreement will terminate upon a date specified in the notice, not less than thirty days after receipt of the notice. If the tenant fails to remedy the condition specified in the notice, the rental agreement shall terminate as provided in the notice.
She never notified her home-owners insurance, and she pays a mortgage on the home as well. At this point, I'm certain my insurance probably low-balled her, which I know is between her and them.
I began searching for a place at the beginning of May and secured a place in Mid-May, before this incident occurred. I gave a 60 day notice on June 1, plus June's rent, May's utilities, and the depreciation difference from the original estimate. (this last amount was not required by me, but a gesture of goodwill). Technically, I can move into the other place at any time, and I am only required in the lease to give a 45 day notice, but I wanted to give my landlord ample time to find another renter.
It's not that I do not feel bad about the situation, but I will not be bullied. I know there's a lot of PAers and probably someone who has gone through a similar experience, so just looking for advice and venting about the situation.
I have contacted my insurance with this updated development, and am now waiting to hear back via email about everything.
PSN: DignifiedPauper
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Dignified Pauper on
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It's not up to you to compensate her for deprecated values of her home, no.
If I ruined an 800 square foot carpet that had a life time of 10 years and I was on the 9th year, I only pay a fraction of what it costs because they'd have to change it anyways. If she accepted the settlement that's on her. You gave her more than you needed to. In my opinion, I'd let her take you to court. Just keep record of what happened, what you gave her, and that you actually compensated her past the depreciation difference the insurance company provided (probably a bad idea though).
The other problem is that the estimate was for the tile floor in the bathroom only. It did not include the ceiling tiles or the possibility of sanding and refinishing the hardwood floors, all of which were to be covered by the settlement. But living here, with her, is now a nightmare. Oi' vey. Everyone has told me I'm fine, but now I'm looking for a means to leave legally.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Lesson learned for her, maybe if you didn't want to face depreciation of assets you should fix something before it cascades and damages other, more expensive things. Also another reason you shouldn't rent your main living space out.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Honestly, she should have gone through her insurance company (i think) and let them deal with your insurance company.
This. The fact that she's putting it ALL on you and your insurance company is a little weird. Is this her only property? Like is it just her house and you rent the room in the attic? Even then, her homeowners insurance should cover this, and I don't know the law, but I'd think that if she was renting the attic and still paying a mortgage she'd be required to have insurance to cover renters as well.
You're mixing business and friendship there. He rents a space. How it was damaged is inconsequential and doesn't matter in this situation, whether it was due to an accident or a drunken accident, it doesn't matter.
He immediately called his insurance, which he had for a situation like this, and they told the landlord what they would pay. If they want to come to him for more money and are legally entitled to, they can, but he's done his part in this as it stands now.
Also, he's stood by all aspects of the lease agreement, giving longer than a 45 day notice, paying his required fees, and even paid the difference of the original estimate... (which honestly, as nice as it was, may have been a bad idea)
Regardless, he doesn't owe the extra $150 or so because of the new estimate. What he has paid fully restores the place to what it was before he left.
OP's landlord can feel free to go pick up tile from when that was produced to save costs. I sure as hell wouldn't pay for someone's deprecated stuff short of labor to fix it... but that should've been factored in and negotiated with the insurance company.
Also, like I said, OP's landlord should have fixed the drain before it caused problems. So OP is probably on the hook for half the damage liability wise (at the most), if he is at all. So, $150. Which he may have already given?
That's how I understood it. The OP paid the difference out of pocket, and then a new estimate came in which was about $150 more, and apparently they're threatening legal action over $150.
I could not disagree more. He damaged it. According to how I was raised, he is responsible for the full value of fixing it. This is not a legal issue, or a friendship issue. It's a character issue. Money should not be coming out of the landlord's pocket to fix his drunken antics.
2175 was the cost for replacing the entire bathroom floor with similar materials, Travertine. Travertine is an expensive tile, and the estimate for ALL damages was 2005.
Now, the bathroom floor was not ALL that was damaged. There was damage to ceiling tiles and the kitchen hardwood floor. The insurance company included in their settlement offer, of which she has not yet accepted, the cost of sanding and refinishing the kitchen floors if they do not return to normal, for the ceiling tiles and labor to replace that, and to replace the bathroom tile and associated labor.
My insurance was willing to offer 1871, and I covered the 133, of which I'm not responsible, but it was an act of good faith. At this point, we're trying to see if my insurance company simply did not include the cost of the tile floor, and depreciate it correct.
As far Deebaser goes, you're right that I do have the full responsibility of providing the cost, however, that's what insurance is there to assess. Now, we've only found one contractor to give an estimate, but at this point, the cost to fix one room's floor should not exceed the total cost of damages assessed by my insurance for both the kitchen and the bathroom.
While I understand Deebaser's concern, I disagree with the fact that a landlord is not partly responsible for maintaining drains in a house they also live in. My insurance accepted liability on behalf of my car, but just like car insurance, I don't control what my insurance company gives to someone whose car I totaled.
Recently, my car was totaled and I had to deal with it on my own through the other party's insurance. This is a very similar matter.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
If the landlord took the first offer of 2175 and the total repairs was 4180... well... fuck that noise.
My insurance assessed TOTAL damages at 2005. It includes the following:
Labor and Replacement, minus depreciation, for new Travertine floor in an appx. 85 sq. ft bathroom.
Labor and Replacement, minus depreciation, for new ceiling tiles in a kitchen, appx. 90 sq. ft.
Labor for the Sanding and Refinishing of the hardwood floors in the kitchen.
They offered 1871 to my landlord. I generously offered the 133 difference. (There is some change in all these values.)
I did help to find a contractor for the bathroom floor, and that estimate from the contractor for the labor and replacement of the bathroom floor came back at 2175.
So the contractor's estimate for just 1 part came back higher than the entire settlement offered.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Your insurance and your landlords insurance need to talk and work this out, and your landlord and you need to get more estimates.
If I had a dog in an apartment and he tore up all the carpet, I wouldn't just be on the hook for what the depreciated value of the carpet is. I'd be on the hook for what it cost to replace the carpet.
Also, those estimates are fucking outrageous on the part of your insurance. The refinish the hardwood alone will cost more than $2005.
Watch this turn into a situation where the landlord didn't have tenant's insurance and she's out only what OP's insurance offers here. Which all could've been fixed with $50 worth of work on a drain.
Yes it should. When you're a landlord, and your pisspoor maintenance causes damage to your possession, it's partly on you.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Hell for all we know the landlord might've done it too. But the reason it was a problem wasn't that OP left it on, it was poor maintenance on the landlord's part that caused it to overflow. Probably clogged full of hair and debris not even related to the OP on top of it. Had the OP not been cohabiting with his landlord, this probably never would've happened.
This analogy is not valid. The sink didn't flood through the OP's normal use of the fixture (or, through normal use of the chair), it flooded because of neglect on his part. He left it on. Many sinks don't drain fast enough to not eventually overflow if left on overnight. Using your analogy, would the guest be at fault if he stood on the chair and jumped up and down, breaking it and damaging the floor?
But the chair looked broken!
I doubt it's going to be possible to sand a portion of the floor and refinish it. That would look terrible.
Edit: Let's put this into proper perspective. If the OP was a tenant on his own, and his sink was slow to drain, and he had informed the landlord of this in writing, and the landlord failed to fix it in any reasonable time, and he then left the sink on and flooded the apartment, he'd still be liable.
It was not damage due to improper maintenance. It was damage due to improper use of the fixture.
More apt would be, landlord knew chair is broken, asked you not to put anything heavier than a book on it, then you proceed to sit on it in a drunken stupor, breaking it.
In your scenario its the person telling you its ok to sit on the chair's fault entirely. "your friend" told you it was ok and it wasnt, responsibility is on "your friend".
Regardless the tenant is responsible for the damage and probably would be held responsible for any amount the insurance company refuses to cover minus depreciation.
This amount also may depend on how the liabilty is handled in ohio. If she is at partial fault then you and your insurance company may only be responsible for percentage of your liability.
In either case she needs to get her insurance company involved because she needs an advocate here.
I've never not been in a situation where this happens unless the sink is installed improperly or there's a clog. Usually from copious amounts of long hair from someone's god damned hair brush. I'd be willing to bet $5 that's what's causing this is the actual cause. Do you often stand in pools of water in your shower, too? Drainage should be able to accommodate flow from the taps with ease.
Again, IANAL, but there are three main issues in most insurance cases: Liability, coverage, and damages.
Liability is whether or not you were liable for the damages in the first place. Coverage is whether or not your policy covers damages that you are liable for. Damages are the extent of what you have caused through your actions.
The insurance company seems to have accepted liability, and acknowledged that there is coverage. In most states (and I do not know if Ohio is one of them, but you should find out), insurance companies have what is called a "duty to defend." It means that if you get sued as the result of an incident covered by your insurance, they have to pay for a lawyer to defend you.
So, legally speaking, you should be pretty well covered. Good on you for having renters insurance. It sounds like this is more of a dispute between her and your insurance company, and that you really don't need to get involved. If you want to be a good guy, and pay for the difference between what the insurance company offers, and the cost of putting brand new materials in, that's being a good guy, but it's not repairing what you did; it's actively enriching them, so I would say both ethically and character-wise, you'd be in the clear to not do that.
If they feel there is additional damage not addressed by the insurance company's estimate, they should call in contractors to get estimates to repair, and submit them to the insurance company. If I were you, though, I would stay the fuck out of it.
Also, when you talk to that lawyer, you may want to mention how unpleasant living there is. You may have a case for "constructive eviction," though I don't know how that's looked upon in Ohio, or your municipality. You may want to ask if they'd just let you leave early, since they seem to not want you there, anyhow.
I have no intention of stranding my roomie/landlord without a viable renter. Again, I'm not looking to be unfair with this situation, but part of the risk of having a renter is dealing with their stupid mistakes. The situation sucks for everyone, but threatening me is not going to make this situation resolve itself any faster.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
And most taps in apartment buildings aren't properly maintained. Still doesn't mean the tenant isn't at fault if he floods the damn thing by leaving the tap on overnight. If the pipes were clogged further down the drain and weeks and weeks of usage resulted in some miraculous drain breakage in the walls, leading to this damage, that would be a different story.
Tenant leaves taps on. Sink floods. Tenant is at fault. It doesn't matter if the drains weren't completely cleared.
This wasn't damage due to normal use. Leaving the taps on overnight is not normal use. That is negligence.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Insurance company handles this matter, it is no longer OP's concern morally or legally. He shouldn't even be offering to compensate past deprecation value, that's not his duty. If she settles, and then expects more form him, too bad so sad and I hope she takes him to court and he comes out owing $130 for shared liability.
Negligence on both their parts caused the damage. Also people piss in showers too.
To answer that, you need to step away from this. You're moving out, your lease is terminated in the near future, and you're paid up. You need to let your insurance and their insurance work this out, and that's all there is to it.
If your landlord threatens legal action again, report it to your insurance and let them give her the number of an attorney she can speak to with any further questions.
Stay out of it.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
The previous home owners who installed the Travetine did not install durarock under the tiles, so my insurance is not covering that. The installation of Durarock was $300. Also, $880 of the estimate was for tile at $11.00 per tile, and the purchase of 80 tile, granted that was an allowance and that it could come down. The higher end tile of travertine costs about that much, but usually tends to cost about $5 to $6 per tile. My insurance company requested to come take a sample of the tile to send of for analysis and they would adjust the tile allowance accordingly in their estimate. She isn't getting an upgrade, the insurance will restore what she had.
From my insurance's end, I am legally finished with all obligations. At this point, in order to keep myself protected, I have been advised to defer to my insurance company and say nothing more on the subject.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
This is why you have insurance, after all. Dealing with this is their job. I expect her threatening legal action had a lot to do with you giving notice and the damage occurring near the same time. And if she sues you? She's not going up against you, she's going up against your insurer.
If she has a problem, refer her to your insurance agent. I'm guessing you're not a lawyer, and I know I'm not one, and I doubt anyone in the thread is one either --but your insurance company happens to have a whole lot of them. Don't put forward any more of your money on this. Let your insurer do their job.
If she hassles you, give her the name of your agent and the phone number to get ahold of him or her. Don't offer anything else, and don't make statements of culpability beyond any you might have made already.
Beyond this, she has become very passive aggressive and I simply shrug it off. I've been very gentlemanly about this entire situation. She at this point is unwilling to accept the responsibility of being an landlord and the risk that comes with it. I have nothing personal against my landlord, and I find it unfortunate that this happened, but I have done all that I can do and went well above and beyond my expectations.
Thanks to everyone for their feedback, good and bad, critical and supportive. I appreciate all of it.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577