Options

[PATV] Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 4, Ep. 11: Harassment

DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
edited June 2012 in The Penny Arcade Hub
image[PATV] Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 4, Ep. 11: Harassment

This week, we tackle the rampant bullying, misogyny and hate speech that occurs within the gaming community.<br /> Ask Microsoft Support for the tools we need to stop harassment <a href="https://help.xbox.com/default.aspx?productkey=xbox360live&mkt=en-us&st=1&wfxredirect=1&quot; target="_blank">here</a>!<br /> Come discuss this topic in the <a href="http://extra-credits.net/episodes/harassment/#discuss&quot; target="_blank">forums</a>!

Read the full story here

Dog on

Posts

  • Options
    shibbyjamesshibbyjames Registered User new member
    ?

  • Options
    codycody Registered User new member
    These are excellent, and obvious suggestions. Sadly, they must all be implemented by software developers. I strongly agree this behavior is a problem that destroys communities and that for years, software developers have short-sightedly been providing avenues for consequence-free harassment in their games. But why? This is a problem an algorithm could solve, but developers seem completely indifferent to it.

    My mom came to New York and bought a full length fur coat. I said, "Do you know what they had to kill to get that? Some other rich lady."
  • Options
    grimer30grimer30 Registered User new member
    If you said some of this stuff in "real life" you'd be put in jail, we should think of a way to connect people's digital accounts to the actual people behind them so that the justice system can help to stop discrimination in all aspects of people's lives.

  • Options
    MagmarFireMagmarFire Registered User regular
    @cody It's not that software developers are indifferent to it. It's probably just that they haven't for whatever reason, be it due to time constraints (remember, this IS the game industry) or by the possibility that they didn't expect voice chat to be abused in that way. Granted, Dan did say that many chat services do keep muting metrics, so they may have thought about the possibility of abuse beforehand... But still, they aren't evil. Short-sighted? Sometimes, yeah, but it's software.

    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

  • Options
    JHTriuneJHTriune Registered User new member
    Does anyone have a link to this "Cross Assault Debacle"? I have no idea what they're talking about.

  • Options
    macabrecharademacabrecharade Registered User new member
    edited June 2012
    @JHTriune It's to do with the SF x Tekken promotional reality tv show/contest Cross Assault. The Tekken team coach Aris sexually harrassed his team member Miranda in the crassest way possible until she quit. He also said when questioned about it that if you took the sexual harrassment out of the fighting game community it would be morally wrong. http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/sexual-harassment-as-ethical-imperative-the-ugly-side-of-fighting-games

    macabrecharade on
  • Options
    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    @JHTriune It's to do with the SF x Tekken promotional reality tv show/contest Cross Assault. The Tekken team coach Aris sexually harrassed his team member Miranda in the crassest way possible until she quit. He also said when questioned about it that if you took the sexual harrassment out of the fighting game community it would be morally wrong. http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/sexual-harassment-as-ethical-imperative-the-ugly-side-of-fighting-games

    The main problem was that the community defended him, instead of making him into the pariah he should be.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • Options
    GABGAB Registered User new member
    Your suggestions are awesome! I have one more: create a common voice of gamers who decide that they want to stand together against harassment and bigotry, and show developers how serious we are about that.

    Conveniently, that is happening as of a few days ago. Check out http://GamersAgainstBigotry.org, sign the pledge, and let us know how we can improve it!

  • Options
    SteveD20SteveD20 Registered User new member
    We had the same idea as the GAB guys, only ours is called The MESSAGE. Hopefully we can run parallel and do more good together! Currently gathering some money for our artists here: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/150672?a=154593

  • Options
    deathkittendeathkitten Registered User new member
    what happens with the people who mute someone as soon as they hear a female voice? will recordings be be taken prior to reports and false reporters appropriately punished? I think too many companies without sufficient lobbying just don't care, because they don't want to eat into their profit by providing an appropriate level of customer service on large games...

    Speaking as someone who's seen a LOT of harassment, believing in "the power of community" is rather naive when the playerbase of a lot of games resembles a boy's treehouse/locker room...

  • Options
    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Well, some communities foster moral fiber and others foster douchebaggery.

    edit:OOOH! I got one, track average number of times the words rape, slut, cunt, and bitch are used in a player's message and infract players whose average goes over 1.

    RoyceSraphim on
  • Options
    TheTwistedFrogPrinceTheTwistedFrogPrince Mina Reed FloridaRegistered User new member
    I've gotten both extremes. I've been both called horrid things, and also been told how amazing and sexy and awesome it is that I'm a girl gamer. Men aren't always evil gamers. In fact, all my boyfriends have been avid gamers, and honestly, i wouldn't have it any other way. I will never date a non-gamer guy. I'm addicted.
    And also...
    @deathkitten, it is true that it does seem to be that way, but honestly, i also have learned throughout my gaming career, it is also the game itself that very much depends. When i play Bioshock II online, i don't get that kind of treatment, and its the same when i play some other MMO's, but when i play Call of Duty...dear lord, it comes in HORDES. The people who play Call of Duty games in particular seem to be the worst, because they're either 12, or total douche bags.

    siggy.jpg
  • Options
    TyconTycon Registered User new member
    edited July 2012
    As usual the extra credits team has presented a well though out point and suggested interesting and creative solutions. Despite the fact that i would agree that this "filth" that is common online is a bad thing in a way i feel its necessary to the gaming world as a whole.

    As you stated, these aren't little kids running their mouth off, these are adults and grown men and women saying hateful things to one another. While mean spirited, people have the freedom to express their opinions to one another in the most common case rage as shown on this episode. Its part of human nature as a whole, it just doesn't feel right to forceably police the voices and actions of a few despite how bad they are.

    The main thing that seams to empower people to feel they can express their true feelings without using the regular social filter in other medium like letters, television or physical interaction is as you've pointed out the feeling of protection behind a computer screen. If games online made an attempt towards being more intimately social it would be much more difficult to express the things people say when you can physically see the reaction of the other person.

    The cross assault dispute is tough to swallow but its hard to really point fingers and individuals as an outsider looking in. The mute feature is a powerful feature and your idea for auto mute is probably the best feature you've suggest since people can just choose to unmute them, anything after that borders the extreme. Using in game mechanics to purposely censor people into their actions is a grey area, much like the political system in tera, which I assume you were suggesting.

    However choosing to ignore the ignorance or rage to others works wonderfully, you can proudly reply to those sending hateful messages to you the same way I prefer to, you tell them you are honored to receive their rage, wear it like a badge.

    TLDR Version - Mute idea is good, heavy policing is negative and its too hard to point out individuals as being in the wrong or justified, nothing extreme, ignoring hateful comments works beautifully, you should feel honored your interaction with another person was able to incite such strong emotions most commonly rage.

    Just my 2 cents, thanks for the input as always extra credits, keep up the good work.

    Tycon on
  • Options
    ripjawwolffangripjawwolffang Registered User new member
    Definately not! There is no excuse for the lack of tools where given against these... Beeps... There just losers trying to drag everyone down with them... If they stopped getting the attention then maybe they themselves will stop!

  • Options
    rainbowhyphenrainbowhyphen Registered User regular
    edited September 2012
    @cody The algorithm and implementation are trivial, sure. In fact, here's how it might look in an event-driven C++ framework:
    void autoMuteJerks(PlayerJoinEvent *e) {
        if (e->player->muteCount > MUTE_LIMIT) {
            e->player->mute();
        }
    }
    game->addEventListener(autoMuteJerks);
    
    Yep, that's it. The trouble is that such a feature was probably either never suggested to people who had the power to implement it, or never given the go-ahead. It's entirely possible the idea was discussed and then discarded due to some reason. Insufficient time to properly test it. Concern that it might produce some sort of backlash. Who knows. Publishing a game is tricky business. Code, at least this kind of code, not so much. =)

    rainbowhyphen on
    raise-this-arm-to-initiate-revolution.png
  • Options
    lordhobanlordhoban Registered User regular
    Agreed, this hate speech is not acceptable. And I agree with most of your suggestions on dealing with it (all really except the having to get to certain level to even speak. That would do more harm to community building than just letting these few haters wander about).

  • Options
    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • Options
    eXigiouSeXigiouS Registered User new member
    There is a problem here that show doesn't seem to take into consideration. When you add means of separating "harassing" players and normal players, there are certain individuals out there that are going to abuse this system. Another way of bullying might appear, in the sense of people muting someone who hasn't harassed anyone and get all their friends to do so. Not everyone will do this, but the fact that someone out there that hasn't been harassing people can end up being muted and discriminated by the game because of a system will also damage the community.

    I would also like to point out that some trash talk in competitive play is to be expected. I am not defending it, or saying that it doesn't cross a line, but some mind games or taunting is part of the game, that does not include personal attacks or gender specific comments, but taunts about bad plays, poor decisions etc.
    You see it even happening in other competitive sports, celebrating goals or mocking competitors when they get dribbled past. Games should add other ways of toying with the competitors and some games actually do.

    This is an issue created outside the community, and rather than making a system where people get rated for bad behavior etc, they should rather create user options, let the players themselves have options that only friends can send them messages. That users themselves get to decide if they join a game and all people stat of muted etc. People should be able to control themselves what they want of a community :) That is my two cents on this matter, but there is a whole lot of other things to take into consideration when it comes to harassment.

  • Options
    CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    eXigiouS wrote: »
    This is an issue created outside the community, and rather than making a system where people get rated for bad behavior etc, they should rather create user options, let the players themselves have options that only friends can send them messages. That users themselves get to decide if they join a game and all people stat of muted etc. People should be able to control themselves what they want of a community :) That is my two cents on this matter, but there is a whole lot of other things to take into consideration when it comes to harassment.
    So if the assholes don't get to be heard, no one does. Brilliant.

    Bullies absolutely should be controlled. I shouldn't have to restrict myself to my friends list, or turn off chat entirely, just to avoid them.

  • Options
    masterxodinmasterxodin Registered User regular
    I think these are highly reasonable starting points for online communities to consider implementing or improving/innovating upon.

    Perhaps the most worthwhile things viewers on this page here can do is share the video with their friends and respective communities outside of this site to spread awareness and get others thinking.

  • Options
    PiggiePiggie Registered User regular
    One thing you guys didn't mention is positive reinforcement for people who are truly helpful and good for the community. The recently implimented Honor System in League of Legends is a simple but fantastic step in the right direction.

    For those of you who don't know, previously in League of Legends, as with most games, the only way to give feedback for player behavior was to report them. This is fine but only fights half of the battle. Now, at the end of a game, players not only have the option to report negative players, but also to honor positive ones based on Teamwork, Helpfulness, and Friendliness if they're on your team, and Honorable Opponent if they're on the other. People who amass enough honor are given a ribbon next to their profile to show off "hey look I'm a good person." The most common one by far is Honorable Opponent - I would argue a little TOO common, but apparently they judge your worth not based on how much honor you have, but how much you have compared to the rest of the playerbase. That means that people playing when the system was first introduced got their ribbons pretty easily, which would explain why most of my friends who play regularly have it.

    Also, this lends itself to a permanent form of punishment that doesn't hinder play: removal of honor. If you get banned for a day, or a week, you just play something else. But if you lose your honor, you have to earn it back by being a more positive person. A system in it's infancy, but definitely a step in the right direction.

  • Options
    closetfuturistclosetfuturist Registered User new member
    edited January 2013
    The thought of systemic muting in a "big picture" context frightens me. People with issues do not. There will be troubled individuals who act out. That's life. I think with the consultation of psychiatrists and sociologists a system that promotes good social skills could be built. It's probably the best anyone can do. As for competitive gaming; that system is broken in some sectors in non gender specific ways. There are competitions that have allowed strippers to try to distract the young gamers, some even rubbing their breasts on their backs. This has clearly turned over clean competition to spectacle. Clean competition should make a comeback. Distraction is cheating anyway. It is irrelevant to a players skill set and I think it promotes bad behavior.

    closetfuturist on
  • Options
    fortyforty Registered User regular
    There are competitions that have allowed strippers to try to distract the young gamers, some even rubbing their breasts on their backs. This has clearly turned over clean competition to spectacle. Clean competition should make a comeback. Distraction is cheating anyway. It is irrelevant to a players skill set and I think it promotes bad behavior.
    I need more details about these competitions...

  • Options
    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    cody wrote: »
    These are excellent, and obvious suggestions. Sadly, they must all be implemented by software developers. I strongly agree this behavior is a problem that destroys communities and that for years, software developers have short-sightedly been providing avenues for consequence-free harassment in their games. But why? This is a problem an algorithm could solve, but developers seem completely indifferent to it.

    I imagine it's at least in part to the fact that people are probably less likely to buy games they get banned from playing. However with the various player bases becoming more and more diverse this consideration is probably becoming less financially sound since players are also less likely to play games they're verbally abused in.

    Then there's just plain old boy's club stuff. Being a developer/publisher doesn't give a person any particularly keen insight into what is and isn't terrible behavior. I'm sure more than a few consider the abuse "trash talk" and therefore a feature.

  • Options
    zluvsanimezluvsanime Registered User regular
    wow, this is the third comment ive had to rewrite because it didnt show up...

    what is wrong with the cross assault clip is not the way they were behaving, it's that they continued doing it. i heard maranda ask them to stop and call it creepy at least 4 times, that is not ok. this kind of behavior and humor is perfectly fine so long as everyone is ok with it but these ass... jerks continued long after the welcome had worn away and its end was requested and ignored. our group is guilty of this and we worked to change it but found we still pissed people off, so one day we resigned to offering a disclaimer before we conversed with a potential fellow xbl friend or foe; be straight with us and we'll be fine, we're not used to other people hearing us for who we are at home so we're not great and knowing if we've offended, so if we offend you please tell us that will give us a future "do not cross" line. and you know what it worked wonders by telling players we converse with to be honest when we've offend them we saved ourselves a whole lot of headaches, and with the listeners drawing the line we've managed to clean up our image. so if you tend to share the same brand of humor next time you start talking with someone new just tell them up front that you dont censor much so honesty is welcomed when you've offended them, if we all strive for this small compromise im sure our community as a whole will be seen in a better and more respectful light

  • Options
    zluvsanimezluvsanime Registered User regular
    i see one problem with the the cross assault video, well one problem with multi parts. in a way that was not rude or insulting she asked them to stop because it was creepy. they continued long after the third or fourth time that they were asked to stop because they were creepy, and that is not ok. that kind of joking around is perfectly fine until you asked to stop because you're offending someone. not only was miranda kind enough to maintain a jovial facade when she asked them to stop but she is part of their team. if you cant stop making sex jokes to make your own teammate comfortable with you then you have no business being human. what those people did was deplorable not because it was done, but because it continued long after its welcome wore out and its end had been requested and ignored. my group of friends are guilty of this and we noticed that by the time we notice we've gone too far the damage is usually irreversible. thats why when playing games like halo we wear a disclaimer "if our actions or choice in humor is offending you ask us to stop, we wont get angry, lash out, or harass you. we dont have a clear sight of when we've crossed the line so please let us know when we do". simply asking people to let us know when we've gone too far saved a lot of stress in the long run but it wasnt enough so we decided to only unleash the full "us" when we were in our own group online or not, and any friend we add to the group is told up front to be straight with their problems to avoid conflict in the future. it doesnt change the behavior but it lessens the impact to a near point of non existence, i think it's a very fair compromise. next time you're online with people you just met just say "hey we dont really censor much so let us know if we go too far" trust me it will do wonders for your online experience and the community image as a whole

  • Options
    zluvsanimezluvsanime Registered User regular
    i see one problem with the the cross assault video, well one problem with multi parts. in a way that was not rude or insulting she asked them to stop because it was creepy. they continued long after the third or fourth time that they were asked to stop because they were creepy, and that is not ok. that kind of joking around is perfectly fine until you asked to stop because you're offending someone. not only was miranda kind enough to maintain a jovial facade when she asked them to stop but she is part of their team. if you cant stop making sex jokes to make your own teammate comfortable with you then you have no business being human. what those people did was deplorable not because it was done, but because it continued long after its welcome wore out and its end had been requested and ignored. my group of friends are guilty of this and we noticed that by the time we notice we've gone too far the damage is usually irreversible. thats why when playing games like halo we wear a disclaimer "if our actions or choice in humor is offending you ask us to stop, we wont get angry, lash out, or harass you. we dont have a clear sight of when we've crossed the line so please let us know when we do". simply asking people to let us know when we've gone too far saved a lot of stress in the long run but it wasnt enough so we decided to only unleash the full "us" when we were in our own group online or not, and any friend we add to the group is told up front to be straight with their problems to avoid conflict in the future. it doesnt change the behavior but it lessens the impact to a near point of non existence, i think it's a very fair compromise. next time you're online with people you just met just say "hey we dont really censor much so let us know if we go too far" trust me it will do wonders for your online experience and the community image as a whole

  • Options
    FreakyCheeseManFreakyCheeseMan Registered User regular
    I'd be very nervous about making communication tools "Earned" - it prevents new players from being able to ask for help or advice.

  • Options
    TheHentaiChristTheHentaiChrist Registered User regular
    @zluvsanime

    I disagree. That was a professional environment and, regardless of any perceived informality based on the content, it is the responsibility of professionals in the environment (i.e. the coach making the comments) to behave like professionals. I think she has a strong case for a sexual harassment law suit and I'd be really happy if she pursued that. But the idea that someone has to tell someone that inappropriate behavior is inappropriate and that it's excusable before that is absurd. Sure, sometimes people cross the line and it's good to say something, but it's not everyone else's job to teach a person how to behave in a socially acceptable manner around a female or in general. If she had been casually making fun of the asian guy's race, you wouldn't say 'Yeah, it was okay until he asked her to stop then she should have stopped.' We expect people to know better and as well we should.

    It's a fine distinction, but it's a very important one because making other people responsible for drawing lines is so frequently an excuse for people crossing lines and it seems there's no end to how much more clearly this mode of thought expects lines to be drawn. You may say, 'She said not to', but someone else can look at it and say 'Well, I didn't think it was clear.' In the same way, people have in the past said rape was not rape because a person didn't state clearly 'No, do not have sex with me.'

  • Options
    iamJLNiamJLN Penny Arcade Stallion Boston Registered User regular
    People will always act like tools behind the blanket of secrecy. Cowards will speak out because they wouldn't in reality. People frustrated with their lives can escape and be aggressive.

  • Options
    SpeculaSpecula Registered User regular
    I normally agree with you, but on this case I have to say I don't. There's a problem with relying on the majority of people to decide whether or not someone should or should not have something. Ignoring all the deeper, apathetic issues or issues of trivial childishness over things like 'oh that guy, I don't like how he plays the game, yeah, get rid of his ability to communicate' There are a lot of people that hate or mute or report others over extremely trivial stuff. Hell, I've played a game where because I didn't run into the middle of the group and make myself an easy target for everyone as opposed to sitting back and picking targets carefully, I was reported by enough ragers that I was eventually banned because I was 'outweighed by the number of reports'. This sort of system simply doesn't work, as much as I'd like to agree with you that it could.

Sign In or Register to comment.