Survivor: [Phalla]ppines - Reserves welcome!

Langly

People are selfish and won't follow the public vote, was why I said I thought it won't work.

It isn't an objection, I just think the idea that people will not try to off other villagers to be the guy is untrue.

To not bring the game to an auto fail condition, we need to have at least one person survive to the end of the game. Some people are going to interpret that as "by getting to the end, any way I can, I am helping the village"

I'm not supporting resisting teucrian's plan, I just think people will look after themselves, and the mafia will take advantage of that.

Teucrian

We are on opposite sides of Hume's Guillotine here Langly.

That said, if we simply predict that people are too selfish for us to try and organize a society then we fail before we start.

Void Slayer

Wont coordinating village actions publicly (not votes, that is a good idea) allow the mafia to take out the food gatherers?

They can eat whatever they find while the village loses stamina. If the mafia remain vote immune to the public vote later on because the rest of the village is too weak we might end up only having a choice between two producers.

Planning to take out the producers is a good idea but we need to make sure both village teams remain competitive enough so that the mafia can not swing the challenges their way on days 4-6.

Bedlam

Teucrian wrote: »

This is clearly the best strategy.

Did I miss any objections?

It is the worst plan, also you smell bad.

Anialos

Teucrian wrote: »

So I've seen three specific objections to us sharing information. For the sake of clarity let me rebut them all at once.

Objection # 1: The mafia will have exclusive use of immunity idols.

Correct. But this isn't a bad thing. By making searching for and using immunity idols an activity reserved exclusively for mafia members it gives us an alternate way to find them. With the results of our daily activities it will be possible to narrow down who might be searching for the idol and by publicizing the private vote we will know that an idol was used by our target if it misses our target and can safely vote them out in the main vote. If the concern is that this will remove the teeth of the secret vote entirely, remember there are only two immunity idols in the entire game.

Look at this another way: The benefit of using an immunity idol under the circumstances that the private vote is public is simply switching the death of a villager for the death of another villager. (For reasons that should be obvious it is extremely unlikely that if a villager is in first place in the secret vote that a mafia member would be in second.) In other words immunity idols are extremely unlikely to offer tangible benefit to the village as a whole.

Objection #2: The mafia, armed with this information, will be able to kill our best players.

They are going to kill precisely one of us every day. None of us has special powers. We are all of equal value to the village. We all had the same six points to distribute. I understand that it makes trying to speak up and lead the village very dangerous what in a game with no guard, but if no one does it we are certain to lose.

Objection #3: We tried this before in Obi's game and it didn't work.

I don't know what Obi's game was like. It doesn't really matter. It is entirely possible that we will try this in this game and lose. But just because a strategy has failed on one occasion does not mean it is not the best strategy. This is clearly the best strategy.

Did I miss any objections?

Uh, on #2 if we go with your plan they would be guaranteed TWO kills a day. The normal mafia kill, and the private vote kill via shenanigans most of the time. Also any plan that relies on 90%+ village participation will almost always fail. Actually, I've never seen one succeed.

Capfalcon

I don't get the objection to #2.

We hold the real public vote and the "public" vote for what people will vote in private. Everyone votes normally for both. Whoever wins the "public" vote is the person that everyone casts their private vote for. That way the mafia can't mess with the private vote that much. If someone uses the immunity idol, we vote them out the next day. I don't see any reason a villager wouldn't go along with the "public" vote, when any dissent would just give the mafia more influence.

It seems pretty straightforward to me.

Anialos

Oh, is it past 10EDT? Looks like it! Teucrian

Bedlam

Yeah if you dont kill jdarksun as soon as possible you hate both fun and puppies

What kind of monster are you?

Bedlam

You know what a good way to sink the village is?

Hand over ALL THE INFORMATION to the mafia. Yeah thats always fun.

Langly

enlightenedbum wrote: »

Langly wrote: »

Anialos wrote: »

enlightenedbum wrote: »

Teucrian wrote: »

So here's something I want to talk about now that I know I'm not mafia.

I think we should publicly coordinate the private vote. That is we should agree in thread precisely who should be voted out in each and every private vote. Indeed, I would suggest that once we agree in thread who should eat the private vote then every single villager voting in it must cast their vote for that person, even if they personally were arguing for someone else.

There are a few good reasons to do this:

First, the mafia will surely all be voting for the same individual in these secret ballots. They have no incentive not to. If we allow the private vote to be a free for all, we increase their influence.

Second, having the discussion in public about who we will all vote for in secret forces the mafia to try and sway two votes, increasing their exposure.

Third, should someone unexpected die in the private vote we will know that foul play occurred. Like the use of anti-village immunity idols, for example.

Any caught using an immunity idol should immediately eat the vote the following day.

Realistically, anyone who is not being a team player and even searches for the damn things should be eliminated immediately. Which is why jdark's addition to this idea is vital.

Right, so under this brilliant plan ONLY the mafia will ever have the Immunity Idol, so when we publicly "vote" for them they know to use it. Then someone else dies and everyone claims that their private vote was the same as their public. Chaos ensues, mafia profits. Yah, not going along with this Teucrian

yeah, I can actually see this backfiring pretty hard. I don't think it's moving in the wrong direction, but it's contingent on the mafia not getting the idol.

Once they use it, there's actually no way to discern if the idol was used, or if it was people lying about their votes.

(unless the idol is public once played. Did I miss that?)

Clarification #2 in this post.

Oh hey I forgot to address this:

The clarification says that the vote will trickle down, it does not say there will be a reason why the vote winner did not win.

For instance, this is how it could look:
Langly is voted out with the private vote (which is public because that's they way the village wants to play)
Langly plays the immunity idol

The vote trickles down to Enlightened

Narration: Enlightened was killed by the private vote!

Which would be completely the same as

Langly gains the majority of the public private votes
Privately, enough people vote for enlightened instead

Narration: Enlightened was killed by the private vote


In both scenarios, you actually don't know if an immunity idol was played. Now, the narration might actually say that someone played the idol, we don't know.

Again, I think that we should make the private vote public, I am just trying to find ways to break our strategy, because that is how you figure out if something is going to work or not.

Greenbarons

So I don't know if we are supposed to vote now or not so I'll go Langly[/] just in case. Your the one who convinced everyone I needed to die int he skinchangers Phalla so there.

Anialos

Bedlam wrote: »

Yeah if you dont kill jdarksun as soon as possible you hate both fun and puppies

What kind of monster are you?

jdarksun wrote: »

What excuse can you possibly have for intentionally sinking the village?

So...jdarksun wants me to vote for him? Yes, this is what I get from this. Well it won't work! I will not fall for his evil plans!

Greenbarons

Langly wrote: »

enlightenedbum wrote: »

Langly wrote: »

Anialos wrote: »

enlightenedbum wrote: »

Teucrian wrote: »

So here's something I want to talk about now that I know I'm not mafia.

I think we should publicly coordinate the private vote. That is we should agree in thread precisely who should be voted out in each and every private vote. Indeed, I would suggest that once we agree in thread who should eat the private vote then every single villager voting in it must cast their vote for that person, even if they personally were arguing for someone else.

There are a few good reasons to do this:

First, the mafia will surely all be voting for the same individual in these secret ballots. They have no incentive not to. If we allow the private vote to be a free for all, we increase their influence.

Second, having the discussion in public about who we will all vote for in secret forces the mafia to try and sway two votes, increasing their exposure.

Third, should someone unexpected die in the private vote we will know that foul play occurred. Like the use of anti-village immunity idols, for example.

Any caught using an immunity idol should immediately eat the vote the following day.

Realistically, anyone who is not being a team player and even searches for the damn things should be eliminated immediately. Which is why jdark's addition to this idea is vital.

Right, so under this brilliant plan ONLY the mafia will ever have the Immunity Idol, so when we publicly "vote" for them they know to use it. Then someone else dies and everyone claims that their private vote was the same as their public. Chaos ensues, mafia profits. Yah, not going along with this Teucrian

yeah, I can actually see this backfiring pretty hard. I don't think it's moving in the wrong direction, but it's contingent on the mafia not getting the idol.

Once they use it, there's actually no way to discern if the idol was used, or if it was people lying about their votes.

(unless the idol is public once played. Did I miss that?)

Clarification #2 in this post.

Oh hey I forgot to address this:

The clarification says that the vote will trickle down, it does not say there will be a reason why the vote winner did not win.

For instance, this is how it could look:
Langly is voted out with the private vote (which is public because that's they way the village wants to play)
Langly plays the immunity idol

The vote trickles down to Enlightened

Narration: Enlightened was killed by the private vote!

Which would be completely the same as

Langly gains the majority of the public private votes
Privately, enough people vote for enlightened instead

Narration: Enlightened was killed by the private vote


In both scenarios, you actually don't know if an immunity idol was played. Now, the narration might actually say that someone played the idol, we don't know.

Again, I think that we should make the private vote public, I am just trying to find ways to break our strategy, because that is how you figure out if something is going to work or not.

1. Mafia get a kill

2. Immunity idols negate all votes on you, so it essentially causes trickle without you actually dying. You will be told if an immunity idol is played.

Related. Order of actions is public vote -> secret vote -> mafia kill. Secret vote will trickle if it is the same target as the public vote.

3. Challenges give immunity to the secret vote, not the red vote, and they do so for all days.

That seems to suggest that we will be openly told if the immunity idol is used to block the vote.

Capfalcon

Bedlam wrote: »

You know what a good way to sink the village is?

Hand over ALL THE INFORMATION to the mafia. Yeah thats always fun.

But they've already got more information than us. Revealing the information in this way would make their manipulation useless.

Let's break it down. Now, we've got 10 people in a tribe, and it's pretty likely that two mafia are in each tribe. Now, in the private vote, they will never, ever vote for a mafia, ever. In addition, they will vote for the same person to maximize their voting power. This makes it much less likely that anyone who is voted out will be village.

What is being proposed is making a second vote for whom everyone should privately vote. Whoever the "winner" is, every member of the tribe votes for that person. This completely negates the mafia's power block. It pretty much makes it a second vote, since the mafia will have to worry about their records for both votes. This is a good thing for the village. It gives us two records to look over.

enlightenedbum

Langly wrote: »

Failure to read

You will be told if an immunity idol is played.

Teucrian

The more we do in public the more powerless the mafia becomes. All they'll have is their one kill and constant paranoia about exposing themselves in public action and two sets of voting records. It is when we are all out for ourselves that they grow in power. That's how the mafia can get away with doing all kinds of horrible stuff because they'll just blend in with the horrible rest of us.

What we do is make rules that benefit the village in whole. That gives the mafia two choices: comply or risk being discovered. Those choices are very good for us. But this system only works if villagers understand and follow the rules.

One rule that benefits the village as a whole is no searching for the immunity idol. Protecting people from the vote is protecting them from the will of the village.

I am aware that the possibility exists that the mafia might, under this rule, manage to find both idols and evade detection while doing so. (I hope you would concede that there is also the possibility that we could use their skulking around the camp as an opportunity to find them.) They may then successfully use it to dodge one secret vote, which would kill a villager. But we would then know that person is mafia because we know people followed the rules.

My guess though: if enough of us get on board people will be too paranoid to search for the idol out of fear of being discovered and lynched and we will eliminate it as a potential mafia tool.

Here's another good rule: Always leave exactly one person tending the fire, and have that person appointed in public. If that person does their job, the fire will not go out. If it does, they are not a cooperating part of the village.

Does that make sense? I'm not trying to be repetitive or pedantic, nor am I suggesting that all should obey whatever I suggest. But this game will be won or lost on the basis of some combination of luck and the willingness of the village to collectivize and work for the larger goal, instead of selfish and shortsighted ones. That requires us to come up with a set of clear and understandable rules for how the village will behave.

Langly

Teucrian wrote: »

The more we do in public the more powerless the mafia becomes. All they'll have is their one kill and constant paranoia about exposing themselves in public action and two sets of voting records. It is when we are all out for ourselves that they grow in power. That's how the mafia can get away with doing all kinds of horrible stuff because they'll just blend in with the horrible rest of us.

What we do is make rules that benefit the village in whole. That gives the mafia two choices: comply or risk being discovered. Those choices are very good for us. But this system only works if villagers understand and follow the rules.

One rule that benefits the village as a whole is no searching for the immunity idol. Protecting people from the vote is protecting them from the will of the village.

I am aware that the possibility exists that the mafia might, under this rule, manage to find both idols and evade detection while doing so. (I hope you would concede that there is also the possibility that we could use their skulking around the camp as an opportunity to find them.) They may then successfully use it to dodge one secret vote, which would kill a villager. But we would then know that person is mafia because we know people followed the rules.

My guess though: if enough of us get on board people will be too paranoid to search for the idol out of fear of being discovered and lynched and we will eliminate it as a potential mafia tool.

Here's another good rule: Always leave exactly one person tending the fire, and have that person appointed in public. If that person does their job, the fire will not go out. If it does, they are not a cooperating part of the village.

Does that make sense? I'm not trying to be repetitive or pedantic, nor am I suggesting that all should obey whatever I suggest. But this game will be won or lost on the basis of some combination of luck and the willingness of the village to collectivize and work for the larger goal, instead of selfish and shortsighted ones. That requires us to come up with a set of clear and understandable rules for how the village will behave.

Ok, now if I am mafia, I am following everything you say. I take no mafia actions and follow lock step in the private vote/attempt to blend in and do due diligence in adding to public discussion. I take actions that help the village towards the endgame of survivor.

With no specials, isn't it basically completely up to chance to find a mafia who acts like that?

All it takes is for the mafia to keep all four members alive for four days to control the two votes. That's four days of two public votes in the villages' control. We had better be pretty lucky and/or on our best mafia finding game, because that will be a game over scenario for the village.

Langly

I guess what I mean is that a very public game, while making it difficult for vote manipulation/other forms of sneakery, also makes it very easy to hide as a mafia member, here.

Capfalcon

Langly wrote: »

Ok, now if I am mafia, I am following everything you say. I take no mafia actions and follow lock step in the private vote/attempt to blend in and do due diligence in adding to public discussion. I take actions that help the village towards the endgame of survivor.

With no specials, isn't it basically completely up to chance to find a mafia who acts like that?

All it takes is for the mafia to keep all four members alive for four days to control the two votes. That's four days of two public votes in the villages' control. We had better be pretty lucky and/or on our best mafia finding game, because that will be a game over scenario for the village.

Well, that's a good point, but I guess the counter point is, "How does a private game help us?"

Because it looks like the private game has the same disadvantage without the bonus of keeping the mafia on the straight and narrow.

Langly

maaan I dunno, maybe we could like, use the private game to set up a mafia trap?

elmer fudd style

look I don't know.

stever777

Can we vote yet?
I'm getting that nagging feeling of needing to put a certain "L" name in bold red. :P

MrTLicious

Sorry guys, I got roped into something.

Narration Inc.

MrTLicious

Day 1

Jeff Probst II looked awkwardly between the two sides of the boat. He recited the same message he or his father had for 53 years.

“Look around you. 20 Castaways that have never met are about to embark on an adventure that will change your lives.

“I hope you like who you are standing next to, because they will be your family for the next 39 days. All those on the starboard side are Tribe Wilson. Those on port are Tribe Tom Hanks’ Beard. Grab what you can and row to shore, and there will be more instructions to follow. You don’t want to be the last one to complete this challenge. Go!”

The castaways spent little time looking for supplies, as they knew the race was more important. They piled into the boats and started rowing.

Tribe Wilson found shore first, by a margin of 24 seconds. The Anonymous jumped off the boat and found the set of instructions. There was a totem wrapped in knots just off the beach. They needed to untie it and then attach themselves to the rope that was holding it. All the tribe members must then make their way around a railing around which the rope was wound.

Both tribes made short work of the knots, Tribe Wilson neither gained nor lost their advantage.

During the ropes course, though, there were some that clearly fell behind. Langly and Fabulon Gayowski (Sir Fabulous) could not make their way across, hampering everyone behind them. Though there were stragglers on Tribe Tom Hanks’ Beard, they were fewer and less egregious. Tribe Wilson fell behind, losing their grasp on Immunity.

“Congratulations, Tribe Tom Hanks’ Beard. You have won the first immunity challenge and, perhaps even greater, the gift of fire. Waterproof matches. You all know what you’re doing, so get to your respective camps. Today is a big day.”

---

Tribe Tom Hanks’ Beard
Richard D. Johnson (Anialos)
Greenbarons
Linus van Smelt (tzeentchling)
Void Slayer
Alexander "Xander" Wallace (Kilnaga)
Capfalcon
Assuran
Stever777
Figgy
REG Rysk

Tribe Wilson
John Darksun (jdarksun)
kime
Bedlam
Fabulon Gayowski (Sir Fabuous)
Langly
Magnus P. Higginbotham (Smoove Operator)
The Anonymous
Andrew Bumke (enlightenedbum)
Teucrian
The Dagon

Team Tom Hanks’ Beard has matches. Team Wilson must vote a member off of the island. If you are a member of that tribe, please PM me your vote before tomorrow’s deadline (11 PM EDT)

Kilnaga

Yay, matches!

Anialos

Excellent.

MrTLicious

Both tribes find the following note in their respective tree mails

Your work on the island is never done

You must place your tribe in the order they will run.

Tribes will be facing off in a Dexterity competition for the second immunity challenge. Each tribe must submit an ordered list of players to determine the matchups. Disagreements will be resolved by RNG.

tzeentchling

sweet, I get to vote Langly with a free conscience, since he's on Team Wilson.

Or is that, team WillSuck!?! :P

Bedlam

jdarksun wrote: »

Bedlam wrote: »

Yeah if you dont kill jdarksun as soon as possible you hate both fun and puppies

What kind of monster are you?

Hey, you remember that time we voted you out - and you acted all hurt and wounded, to try and get sympathy? And then you were mafia!

Good times.

If you are going to insist on being a bully, Then I am going to save you the time and !Withdraw

The Anonymous

Uh

What

enlightenedbum

Wtf indeed.

If there's no replacement, do we even have to bother with the PM vote? In other words, are quits handled like the show?

Also, I wouldn't entirely mind losing !Langly if he struggled on the ropes course. That sounds like a dexterity issue with another high dexterity challenge coming up. And I disagree with his philosophy about not keeping things public anyway.

Speaking of! As a show of my commitment to this idea: I have 3 dex 1 str 2 int and I am debating between food gathering and fire lighting, depending what other tribe members would like to do. I would prefer to try to get a fire going, if we can get a couple people working on that.

Void Slayer

I to am confused.

Not sure so staying out of it.

In the meantime Kilnaga for voting for me with a RNG.

If you want to vote me out there is no need to hide behind a RNG.

My team has already divulged half the food gatherers in private (where the mafia can hear) so my objections to the public info is out.

HOWEVER it is possible that one team has all the mafia so I would prefer that info is kept on the team boards until day 3 (or until it is relevant) to keep half the information out of mafia hands as long as possible.

Kilnaga

I don't want to vote for you, the dice do.

warban

Bedlam wrote: »

.... save you the time and !Withdraw

!Reserve Up.

Figgy

Teucrian

Day 1. But also, word vomit in every post.

Langly

I have 4 str and 2 int, I will build shelter today

Assuran

Kime is always evil. And on the other team.

MrTLicious

So, I guess @warban is replacing @Bedlam

MrTLicious

enlightenedbum wrote: »

If there's no replacement, do we even have to bother with the PM vote? In other words, are quits handled like the show?

That would have been the case, yes.

warban

Sup. I guess I need to read up on this game then. What do I need to do today?

kime

warban wrote: »

Sup. I guess I need to read up on this game then. What do I need to do today?

Do your best to kill everyone