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The Selling Out Kickstarter
Graveborn
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Their words, not mine....
I'm a pretty big PA fanboi. I enjoy the comic (although I think they miss more than they hit). But I have a soft spot for two Spokane boys that moved to Seattle, struggled for a long time and then made it big. They've taken that "bigness" and tried to do right by starting a charity, putting on the best gaming con in the country and generally keeping the gaming industry on their toes by calling out their bullshit on a daily basis.
They have a new plan to keep doing what they're doing, and maybe... more.
I saw this link this morning. They had 130 donors and 16k$. About 5 hours later they have 1000 donors and 68k (yeah, that’s 68$ a person).
I do not get any warm fuzzys about this campaign at all. And it actually pisses me off.
They are asking their supports to pay them, up front, for work that they said they will already do. And that the "people" will get for free. All you have to do is click on their site three times a week and BAM you got their stuff. Now they want you to pay (about 65$ on average) to get a years’ worth of stuff that you got for free. And if you do this you get no ad banners. This is pretty standard fare for most pay sites. But this is not a pay site. They are just asking you to give it to them. They will get their money one way or another. Either through companies posting ads or from you and the product will be the same either way.
First, I want to say that I actually like PA's banner ads. PA has actually promised, in the past, that they wouldn't put up any ads for games and stuff that they thought sucked. They had to like the product to put the ads up for it. And it's worked out great. I actual click on their banners often. Much more so than any other site, because they have interesting shit that they are selling and stuff I don't usually see elsewhere and it's usually good. It's a win-win situation. I get to see cool stuff I might buy and they get paid.
Now they want me to pay them to take away those arrangements. Pay them for a years’ worth of work that may or may not get done (One of them might get hit by a bus tomorrow and no more PA). And then on top of that... they say they have all these stretch goal projects that they will do if we pay them to do their jobs and then pay them extra. But they don't say what those things are (well some of them, like more ads removed and bringing back some podcast).
The other thing that kinda pisses me off about this is that these guys have stated repeatedly that they are "maxed out". That with working, families, PAX, the charity, etc. That they are doing a lot of shit. Gabe even said that he was glad he didn't have to do any work on their new video game (they farmed it out to another company) because it was a lot of work that he didn't enjoy and he "just likes making comics three days a week". And this was like... 2 weeks ago. And here he is holding out his hand saying that he wants us to pay him up front so he can do a bunch of unknown shit, that we will only find out if we give them money, and that THIS will be good stuff that he will like to do and not the bad stuff he doesn't like to do and he will somehow find time to do this stuff.
I don't buy it.... literally. I would throw money at PA (and have) for a lot of the stupid shit they do, but this is pretty fucking lame if you ask me. This business model wouldn't work in any other time in the world and wouldn't work if you didn't have a rabid fan base that you can exploit (and that’s exactly what this feels like, exploitation). Anyone else would fall on their ass asking for 250k for something like this, but PA will pull through and do it.
In the time it took me to write this post (like 10 minutes). They added another 70 supporters and another 12k (up to 80k now). So they will make it. They are a 1/3 of the way there and its half way through their first day. I guess all we can do is sit back and see what happens. Hopefully these stretch goals are awesome and make me eat crow. But I'm not sure that changes the ethics of this whole thing. Do the ends justify the means?
I'm a pretty big PA fanboi. I enjoy the comic (although I think they miss more than they hit). But I have a soft spot for two Spokane boys that moved to Seattle, struggled for a long time and then made it big. They've taken that "bigness" and tried to do right by starting a charity, putting on the best gaming con in the country and generally keeping the gaming industry on their toes by calling out their bullshit on a daily basis.
They have a new plan to keep doing what they're doing, and maybe... more.
I saw this link this morning. They had 130 donors and 16k$. About 5 hours later they have 1000 donors and 68k (yeah, that’s 68$ a person).
I do not get any warm fuzzys about this campaign at all. And it actually pisses me off.
They are asking their supports to pay them, up front, for work that they said they will already do. And that the "people" will get for free. All you have to do is click on their site three times a week and BAM you got their stuff. Now they want you to pay (about 65$ on average) to get a years’ worth of stuff that you got for free. And if you do this you get no ad banners. This is pretty standard fare for most pay sites. But this is not a pay site. They are just asking you to give it to them. They will get their money one way or another. Either through companies posting ads or from you and the product will be the same either way.
First, I want to say that I actually like PA's banner ads. PA has actually promised, in the past, that they wouldn't put up any ads for games and stuff that they thought sucked. They had to like the product to put the ads up for it. And it's worked out great. I actual click on their banners often. Much more so than any other site, because they have interesting shit that they are selling and stuff I don't usually see elsewhere and it's usually good. It's a win-win situation. I get to see cool stuff I might buy and they get paid.
Now they want me to pay them to take away those arrangements. Pay them for a years’ worth of work that may or may not get done (One of them might get hit by a bus tomorrow and no more PA). And then on top of that... they say they have all these stretch goal projects that they will do if we pay them to do their jobs and then pay them extra. But they don't say what those things are (well some of them, like more ads removed and bringing back some podcast).
The other thing that kinda pisses me off about this is that these guys have stated repeatedly that they are "maxed out". That with working, families, PAX, the charity, etc. That they are doing a lot of shit. Gabe even said that he was glad he didn't have to do any work on their new video game (they farmed it out to another company) because it was a lot of work that he didn't enjoy and he "just likes making comics three days a week". And this was like... 2 weeks ago. And here he is holding out his hand saying that he wants us to pay him up front so he can do a bunch of unknown shit, that we will only find out if we give them money, and that THIS will be good stuff that he will like to do and not the bad stuff he doesn't like to do and he will somehow find time to do this stuff.
I don't buy it.... literally. I would throw money at PA (and have) for a lot of the stupid shit they do, but this is pretty fucking lame if you ask me. This business model wouldn't work in any other time in the world and wouldn't work if you didn't have a rabid fan base that you can exploit (and that’s exactly what this feels like, exploitation). Anyone else would fall on their ass asking for 250k for something like this, but PA will pull through and do it.
In the time it took me to write this post (like 10 minutes). They added another 70 supporters and another 12k (up to 80k now). So they will make it. They are a 1/3 of the way there and its half way through their first day. I guess all we can do is sit back and see what happens. Hopefully these stretch goals are awesome and make me eat crow. But I'm not sure that changes the ethics of this whole thing. Do the ends justify the means?
Graveborn on
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From your point of view - that of a self described "fanboi" (urg...) - the comics and newspost get created either way. They are not even hinting (rather they are making very clear it is not the case) that the comic is in danger of going away.
If the kickstarter gets funded the comic gets made with no ads. If it doesn't the comic gets made with ads (the status quo).
What is the downside here? I see a lot of vauge whining in your post but what possible downside does either outcome of this kickstarter have?
So I'm at a loss as to why you are mad at an alternative business plan that again will be directly funded and beholden to the very people that are paying for it.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I will say this, though:
Is spot-on. Some of the shit I've bought I'd have never heard of if I hadn't seen the PA Ad. They kinda do the whole Ad-thing correctly; it's tasteful, understated, and filtered by HUMANS to appeal to other likeminded humans.
pleasepaypreacher.net
If they don't make their goals, we get the same awesome stuff we've had.
How is this a bad plan?
Thank you, might have to get in on this while its still a startup as it were.
pleasepaypreacher.net
As Public Radio's Marketplace will tell you again and again: If you are getting something on the internet for free, you are not the customer - you are the product. So, do the ends (turning the fans and public into the customer instead of the product) justify the means (selling the product to the fans, instead of selling the fans to the advertisers)?
Yes. Unequivocally, absolutely, positively yes.
@Lewie P's Stepdad question because I'm wondering, maybe you can't tell me or won't -- is PA able to be supported off their Merch sales? I've always wondered how'd the fair without advertisements.
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
There's a lot of potential there if they hit their funding goals.
Ack, that was my bad. Its 1000 supports. So it IS actually 68$ a person. Right now its 1147 supporters at $83,681 or $72 a person.
the actual number of supporters at this moment is 1,152 (with $83,840 raised). THe OP had it a little bit off.
Dracogen pledged $5k, notch $9999 (as you pointed out)
As long as they keep up the traffic numbers there will be ad dollars available should they ever need em.
Advertisers want eyeballs. So even if PA turned them away they'd come back because the PA userbase is the sweet spot of advertising anyway (largely male 15 to 40's).
pleasepaypreacher.net
That's absolutely the opposite end of the business to the part that I deal with. I have a specific remit to not worry about money and to do what is best for the forums, pretty much word-for-word.
I support the idea of the kickstarter and will probably donate, but only to get the podcast back and whatever other good goals they've got in store.
Incorrect - you are definitely the product, because you contribute to the impressions and they sell ads by being able to deliver a certain impression and clickrate. Your traffic is the product the ad guys are selling.
You are Penny Arcade's product.
But you are, by definition. You may think that you just come here for pictures, writeups and forums, but what pays the bills and keeps all of that going is the fact that your eyes are glued to that front page for X seconds per day, and there is Y probability you click through and buy ads that are targeted towards you, for which Mike and Jerry et al. are paid $Z.
This is how the vast majority of the web works.
Fair enough, I assumed as much. I always wondered about that stuff. Probably fluctuates far too wildly to even be reliable. Thanks.
I still completely fail to see why you'd have a problem with this regardless of the average pledge amount. Exactly how is this a bad thing? We're either getting exactly the same situation we have right now, or there are enough people out there that voluntarily give enough so that we don't get any ads. As Houn pointed out, the only even remotely valid point you made in that entire rage filled little rant is that the way the currently handle ads is one of the better implementations of that strategy. Beyond that there is absolutely zero downside to this.
Seems like whining rules lawyering from disgruntled people. The project they are running is "Can a major site survive on donations alone" and using kickstarter a popular way to directly fund organizations people like as a way of doing the donations. I mean if kickstarter kicked them off its not like they couldn't simply just do the donations another way, it would just be more obnoxious.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Of course, the viewpoint assumes that:
- It's an unreasonable request
- It's exploitation or other immoral behavior
- That PA fans are sheep waiting to be fleeced.
It's an emotional gut reaction. My emotional gut reaction was more along the lines of "Really, PA? This seems like an abuse of Kickstarter. Also, I like your Ads."
Frankly, I'm surprised they don't just fund the whole thing off PAX. I've seen what those tickets are going for on eBay.
kickstarter is for people with an idea but need money to bring it to fruition. I'd rather give money to them not to people who have already established themselves.
This is also kind of stupid since each of those people did not neccessarily put 72 dollars in or whatever, its a way of lying with stastisics to be all "ZOMG PA WANTS *BLANK* AMOUNT OF MONEY FROM ALL OF US!"
pleasepaypreacher.net
My problem with this is a few fold:
1.) Like I said, I actually like the ads. They are actually targeting me correctly and I sincerly like seeing products that I had no idea about prior to coming to their site.
2.) They are well off now. As they said, they are making this comic with or without our finacial support. How much more freedom to they get if they are taking ad money from companies that they are already hand-selecting vs. taking it from thier fans. Also, and they may not have thought of this. But if I'm a fan that just gave them 70$ in the kickstarter to get the site going. Am I going to go back and give them another 30$ for a t-shirt later? I mean, we all only have so much disposable income. I generally like to spread it around a little and not give it all to one site. Just feels greedy to me.
3.) The whole premise of the kickstarter is two fold. First is to get rid of ads and be fan supported. The second is add a bunch of new services and products to the fans as stretch goals. These goals are unknown and you wont know until after you commit to putting your money down. This is a 14 person company and from what I understand, they are all working pretty hard to do what they do for us (the fans) already. Do they have bandwidth for more projects? Are they going to be able to keep whatever promise they make if they meet that stretch goal? This is the biggest flaw with Kickstarter and I have concerns that PA can fullfil it.
4.) This is for a year. They state in thier kickstarter that they will be back next year to do the same thing. PA is moving to the same support philosophy as public TV or public radio. That makes everyone of us responsable for the well being of PA. It almost sheds the burden off the people that are benefiting the most from this site (Tycho and Gabe).
I hope you never eat out, or buy things from a local store because that's also those businesses model as well. And the burden is still on PA, its more on them, because if the fans don't like the product they won't continue to finance it!
pleasepaypreacher.net