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Cops Gone Wild: Bull Connor In The OC Edition

AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
edited July 2012 in Debate and/or Discourse
In response to a police brutality protest in Anaheim, the cops resort to rubber bullets and dogs to break it up. In doing so, they started a "near riot".

Didn't they look at what happened in the 60s? This is just disgusting on several levels.

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  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    ooops... almost read the comments.

    Sometimes... I think Shadowrun has the right idea, partially. Fire the PD and replace them with a private security company with the same powers.
    Hear me out on this. A corporation would be concerned with public image so there wouldn't be a blue wall of silence (due to needing a good public image for contract negotiations) or paid vacation for those under investigation (due to budget concerns). Of course the recent London thing proved how bad of an idea that was so I'm just gonna shut up now.

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Nocren wrote: »
    ooops... almost read the comments.

    Sometimes... I think Shadowrun has the right idea, partially. Fire the PD and replace them with a private security company with the same powers.
    Hear me out on this. A corporation would be concerned with public image so there wouldn't be a blue wall of silence (due to needing a good public image for contract negotiations) or paid vacation for those under investigation (due to budget concerns). Of course the recent London thing proved how bad of an idea that was so I'm just gonna shut up now.

    This is a great idea until you get arrested for wearing Nikes in an Adidas patrolled area.

  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    In response to a police brutality protest in Anaheim, the cops resort to rubber bullets and dogs to break it up. In doing so, they started a "near riot".

    Didn't they look at what happened in the 60s? This is just disgusting on several levels.

    That's what triggered the London riots as well, don't need to remember that far back.

  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    I admit, it was kinda funny reading that and feeling like I saw you realize, on the fly, what road that'd quickly lead down, @Nocren.

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    A corporation is only worried about public image when it's selling to the public. Bain, Haliburton, Blackwater, none of those companies give two shits how many Americans think they're a bad company, because they're not selling a product that those people buy. It would be like Microsoft launching a campaign to improve its image among the Amish - even if it worked, Microsoft still isn't making anything that an Amish community would buy.

    A private police force would be selling to the city, not the people. They would have the same motivations as the public police force to cover up incidents, and it would be immensely harder to pierce the inner workings and shine light on what's being covered up.

    Only need to look to where cities have privatized things that are usually public, like fire departments. There was a news story not long ago about a private fire department showing up at a guy's house to make sure the uncontrolled fire that was going to be allowed to destroy his home didn't spread to people who's checks hadn't bounced.

    Hevach on
  • DivideByZeroDivideByZero Social Justice Blackguard Registered User regular
    Plus their Enforcement Droids are extremely likely to malfunction and murder everyone in line of sight.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    A corporation is only worried about public image when it's selling to the public. Bane, Haliburton, Blackwater, none of those companies give two shits how many Americans think they're a bad company, because they're not selling a product that those people buy. It would be like Microsoft launching a campaign to improve its image among the Amish - even if it worked, Microsoft still isn't making anything that an Amish community would buy.

    A private police force would be selling to the city, not the people. They would have the same motivations as the public police force to cover up incidents, and it would be immensely harder to pierce the inner workings and shine light on what's being covered up.

    Only need to look to where cities have privatized things that are usually public, like fire departments. There was a news story not long ago about a private fire department showing up at a guy's house to make sure the uncontrolled fire that was going to be allowed to destroy his home didn't spread to people who's checks hadn't bounced.

    :)

  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    I once ran a Shadowrun game where one of the ongoing plot points was making the Lone Starr (the current private police force) look terrible because their contract was up for renewal and their main competitor was trying to convince the city to go with them instead. Outsourcing to the private sector is not necessarily a terrible idea, nor is our current system necessarily a terrible idea. In practice however both have the potential to go very badly.

  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    In response to a police brutality protest in Anaheim, the cops resort to rubber bullets and dogs to break it up. In doing so, they started a "near riot".

    Didn't they look at what happened in the 60s? This is just disgusting on several levels.

    Just as a point of fact, it wasn't in response to the protest; it was in response to what, from the cops' perspective, looked like an imminent attack by a mob. Some of the protesters started throwing rocks and bottles, the police attempted to arrest one of them, and the crowd apparently surrounded and swarmed in on the cops (one of the people arrested was charged with aggrevated assault and forcefully removing someone from police custody). The original shooting was most likely murder (I look forward to hearing the officer's excuse for shooting an unarmed man in the ass, then shooting him in the head), but the rubber bullets were as much the protesters' fault as the cops' (consider how you would react if you were cornered with a bunch of openly-hostile people closing in).

    Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.

    - John Stuart Mill
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    Detharin wrote: »
    I once ran a Shadowrun game where one of the ongoing plot points was making the Lone Starr (the current private police force) look terrible because their contract was up for renewal and their main competitor was trying to convince the city to go with them instead. Outsourcing to the private sector is not necessarily a terrible idea, nor is our current system necessarily a terrible idea. In practice however both have the potential to go very badly.

    This actually happened in the current continuity (Lone Star botched their handling of a gang war, if I remember correctly) and they were replaced with Knight Errant.

    Of course, the existence of things like the various Barrens Z zones and the like in Shadowrun, as well as the rampant abuse of the SINless, are examples of the perils of private security forces.



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  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    This actually happened in the current continuity (Lone Star botched their handling of a gang war, if I remember correctly) and they were replaced with Knight Errant.

    Of course, the existence of things like the various Barrens Z zones and the like in Shadowrun, as well as the rampant abuse of the SINless, are examples of the perils of private security forces.

    Sweet, next time i get back to Shadowrun i can toss in that Knight Errant took over. The players will get a kick out of it.

    Private security definitely has its issues, makes me think of Punisher 2099 where if you called the cops and were behind on your police protection insurance payments they would neither send help, nor investigate the crime.

  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    If I understand the chain of events, cops pursued a group of men and when catching up to them, one of the men was shot. A crowd of individuals then felt they had the right to demand answers and converged on the cops. At this point items were thrown, shots were fired and a dog went haywire.

    At the moment, I have yet to see any video of a clear chain of events nor any testimony from participants that isn't skewed one way or another. Even news reports are filled with second hand accounts of cops letting dogs out and offering to pay money for cell phones containing video.

    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for shooting a fleeing man in the ass and in the head, killing him and releasing an attack dog on a crowd with women and children. I know I certainly would be terrified for my life if women and children were throwing rocks at me while I was merely wearing a bullet proof vest and sporting a few forms of lethal and non-lethal weapons.

  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for shooting a fleeing man in the ass and in the head, killing him and releasing an attack dog on a crowd with women and children. I know I certainly would be terrified for my life if women and children were throwing rocks at me while I was merely wearing a bullet proof vest and sporting a few forms of lethal and non-lethal weapons.

    It's a well known fact that bulletproof vests are essentially force fields that prevent any harm to the wearer, regardless of being drastically outnumbered. As well, those things cannot be pulled off by other people, and can only be removed by the wearer.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    Nocren wrote: »
    ooops... almost read the comments.

    Sometimes... I think Shadowrun has the right idea, partially. Fire the PD and replace them with a private security company with the same powers.
    Hear me out on this. A corporation would be concerned with public image so there wouldn't be a blue wall of silence (due to needing a good public image for contract negotiations) or paid vacation for those under investigation (due to budget concerns). Of course the recent London thing proved how bad of an idea that was so I'm just gonna shut up now.

    This is a great idea until you get arrested for wearing Puma in an Adidas patrolled area.

    Fixed that for you, because its very nearly the truth in Puma/Adidas's hometown in Germany.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Now you're just making that up.

    No such thing as a Puma.

  • Xenogear_0001Xenogear_0001 Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    From what I gather, this is a community that already feels targeted by the police (legitimately or not), so for a large group of people from this community to personally witness the murder of a fleeing man by the police and not get up in arms, I'd be rather surprised. Here's the other thing--once the police started opening fire, how many do you think continued to advance? My guess: 0. Call it a hunch.

    I'd say this speaks to deeper issues that crop up between lower-income communities and the police, though. Not a whole lot of trust to go around in either direction.

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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    *less than lethal

  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    A corporation is only worried about public image when it's selling to the public. Bain, Haliburton, Blackwater, none of those companies give two shits how many Americans think they're a bad company, because they're not selling a product that those people buy. It would be like Microsoft launching a campaign to improve its image among the Amish - even if it worked, Microsoft still isn't making anything that an Amish community would buy.

    A private police force would be selling to the city, not the people. They would have the same motivations as the public police force to cover up incidents, and it would be immensely harder to pierce the inner workings and shine light on what's being covered up.

    Only need to look to where cities have privatized things that are usually public, like fire departments. There was a news story not long ago about a private fire department showing up at a guy's house to make sure the uncontrolled fire that was going to be allowed to destroy his home didn't spread to people who's checks hadn't bounced.

    Well, the idea is that with a large enough vocal outcry, city reps would be pressured to change security companies (as opposed to not doing anything). Of course the whole idea is bad because people are bad. The fire department argument though wouldn't work in this case. The company would be contracted by the city/government to provide the service to everyone, not the individual citizens (though I think in that case, the people had the ability to op out of the program?).

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Nocren wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    A corporation is only worried about public image when it's selling to the public. Bain, Haliburton, Blackwater, none of those companies give two shits how many Americans think they're a bad company, because they're not selling a product that those people buy. It would be like Microsoft launching a campaign to improve its image among the Amish - even if it worked, Microsoft still isn't making anything that an Amish community would buy.

    A private police force would be selling to the city, not the people. They would have the same motivations as the public police force to cover up incidents, and it would be immensely harder to pierce the inner workings and shine light on what's being covered up.

    Only need to look to where cities have privatized things that are usually public, like fire departments. There was a news story not long ago about a private fire department showing up at a guy's house to make sure the uncontrolled fire that was going to be allowed to destroy his home didn't spread to people who's checks hadn't bounced.

    Well, the idea is that with a large enough vocal outcry, city reps would be pressured to change security companies (as opposed to not doing anything). Of course the whole idea is bad because people are bad. The fire department argument though wouldn't work in this case. The company would be contracted by the city/government to provide the service to everyone, not the individual citizens (though I think in that case, the people had the ability to op out of the program?).

    Two responses to this:
    1. How frequently does a large vocal outcry work against the public police department? It will not be any less effective against the private one, and might be even less effective if your typical small town public servant contract lawyer can't measure up to the big expensive firm the department hires.
    2. How many competing offers are you likely to find? (going back to my example of privatized fire departments, most places if the city decides to terminate their contract, their only option is to reassemble the public fire department).

    And then there's the real fun thing about privatizing public services: Who does the private company hire? Usually the same public employees you just put out of a job. And if you manage to find a competing offer and switch police providers, guess who they're going to hire to meet the demand? The people the last company just laid off. For the same reason: They've got immediate relevant experience, know the area, and since the new provider generally takes over the buildings and equipment of the public department/previous corporate provider, they can pretty much be put back in their old jobs with a minimum of transitional stress. You're rarely actually getting rid of the problem, just putting it on somebody else's payroll.

    Hevach on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Nocren wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    A corporation is only worried about public image when it's selling to the public. Bain, Haliburton, Blackwater, none of those companies give two shits how many Americans think they're a bad company, because they're not selling a product that those people buy. It would be like Microsoft launching a campaign to improve its image among the Amish - even if it worked, Microsoft still isn't making anything that an Amish community would buy.

    A private police force would be selling to the city, not the people. They would have the same motivations as the public police force to cover up incidents, and it would be immensely harder to pierce the inner workings and shine light on what's being covered up.

    Only need to look to where cities have privatized things that are usually public, like fire departments. There was a news story not long ago about a private fire department showing up at a guy's house to make sure the uncontrolled fire that was going to be allowed to destroy his home didn't spread to people who's checks hadn't bounced.

    Well, the idea is that with a large enough vocal outcry, city reps would be pressured to change security companies (as opposed to not doing anything). Of course the whole idea is bad because people are bad. The fire department argument though wouldn't work in this case. The company would be contracted by the city/government to provide the service to everyone, not the individual citizens (though I think in that case, the people had the ability to op out of the program?).

    If I recall the details about that fire department was that the local government had been foisting the cost of fire prevention on the neighboring town for years, and putting their foot down was the only way they had to get said local government to actually put money aside for the fire service.

    It isn't a good example for this argument, if I am remembering the correct incident.

    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    The fire incident was legit, there was a service fee for fire service (same as a tax), but it was voluntary. They guy didnt pay for it, and then demanded service. The fire crew said no, they were there to stop paying customers from getting burnt down. the guy then slugged the fireman (I want to say it was chief), and he was arrested.

    The area had to outsource their fire services to another town who did have local fire services, because it was too small to maintain themselves.

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  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    Play Smash Bros 3DS with me! 4399-1034-5444
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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Well, I think that column was pretty prejudiced against Americans, but anyone that doesn't think there is a massive cultural divide between the two nations when it comes to guns is not paying attention.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Detharin wrote: »
    This actually happened in the current continuity (Lone Star botched their handling of a gang war, if I remember correctly) and they were replaced with Knight Errant.

    Of course, the existence of things like the various Barrens Z zones and the like in Shadowrun, as well as the rampant abuse of the SINless, are examples of the perils of private security forces.

    Sweet, next time i get back to Shadowrun i can toss in that Knight Errant took over. The players will get a kick out of it.

    Private security definitely has its issues, makes me think of Punisher 2099 where if you called the cops and were behind on your police protection insurance payments they would neither send help, nor investigate the crime.

    As someone who used to work private security, I can tell you right now that private security is largely a joke. It's being a cop for people who couldn't cut it as cops, or couldn't even get a foot in the door.

    Or couldn't even get a job at Walmart.

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