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Problems expressing Feminist opinions
Thujone
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
First of all, I am a female, and I am a feminist- and I have a predominately male group of friends. Most of my friends are very open-minded and respectful of other people (which, is why I like them) but there have been a few situations where I have felt frustration because they have been dismissive or flat out degrading to women. I feel like when these situations arise, my feelings get hurt- I feel disconnected from the group, and that it turns into the guys slapping each other's backs laughing at me. I want to stress that I'm not a solemn person by all means, but in these situations I feel like the joke is always on me.
For example:
The most recent problem has been an issue with my boyfriend. We were discussing marriage- (offhandedly, as we are definitely not at that point in the relationship) and I told him I have mixed feelings about the implications of marriage in society, feel like I'm joining a club that my non-heterosexual friends can't get into, and that I have mixed feelings about taking a man's last name as my own.
Needless to say, he was offended when I said I had to give serious thought to taking his last name (even though the situation was hypothetical) and so I said, "How would you feel about taking my last name?" He laughed in my face, and told me that "It's just not the way things are done" and that he'd "Get so much flack for doing that." I tried to talk about it further, but he just kept laughing and laughing. Finally he controlled himself and the topic of conversation went on.
I haven't brought it up again, for fear of eye-rolling and just general fear of being written off, but I'm having serious doubts in not only his amount of respect for women, but also : me. I don't know what to do, or how I would bring this topic up without being branded as a stereotype of man-hater or feminazi. It seems like no matter how respectful, non-threatening and constructive I am when I try to approach him, these stereotypes get thrown in when referring to any questioning of societal structure. How do I initiate a conversation about this? I feel slightly resentful towards my boyfriend after that conversation, and really have been questioning just how to bring it up again? How should I bring stuff like this up, especially when I'm the only female in the entire group of friends?
For example:
The most recent problem has been an issue with my boyfriend. We were discussing marriage- (offhandedly, as we are definitely not at that point in the relationship) and I told him I have mixed feelings about the implications of marriage in society, feel like I'm joining a club that my non-heterosexual friends can't get into, and that I have mixed feelings about taking a man's last name as my own.
Needless to say, he was offended when I said I had to give serious thought to taking his last name (even though the situation was hypothetical) and so I said, "How would you feel about taking my last name?" He laughed in my face, and told me that "It's just not the way things are done" and that he'd "Get so much flack for doing that." I tried to talk about it further, but he just kept laughing and laughing. Finally he controlled himself and the topic of conversation went on.
I haven't brought it up again, for fear of eye-rolling and just general fear of being written off, but I'm having serious doubts in not only his amount of respect for women, but also : me. I don't know what to do, or how I would bring this topic up without being branded as a stereotype of man-hater or feminazi. It seems like no matter how respectful, non-threatening and constructive I am when I try to approach him, these stereotypes get thrown in when referring to any questioning of societal structure. How do I initiate a conversation about this? I feel slightly resentful towards my boyfriend after that conversation, and really have been questioning just how to bring it up again? How should I bring stuff like this up, especially when I'm the only female in the entire group of friends?
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I'd suggest telling them what you just told us, how their laughter made you feel, and your newfound apprehension towards expressing anything they might disagree with.
Either they understand, and things are cool, or they laugh at you again and you realize they're not worth your time.
If it offends you that they are sometimes degrading towards women and playing jokes on you, ask them to stop. If they don't, find new, possibly more mature and less judgmental friends... and boyfriend.
when my friends, male or female, spout shit they expect to get it thrown back at them.
90% of our conversations are practically fights.
on your boyfriend: bring it up and if he does the eye-rolling "oh, not this again" call him out on it. i fucking do that shit but ONLY because i don't feel like having a "hard" conversation. it's a pure dick move but pretty much always works. so...don't let it work for him and put it out there not to be argumentative but to really discuss your viewpoints. from what you've written he seems to take the opposing view only because it is the more widely held viewpoint and has maybe not even given it a second thought.
i don't know any of these people...but when with your friends, you should be able to be express yourself. they may see you as an ass for a conversation but i doubt there are any of them that you could not say the same about.
Marriage is about love, not a piece of paper, despite our current political climate. There is no reason to feel guilty that the government will officially validate your union and not those of a different sexual lifestyle.
As for the name issue, that's simply one of those things that are steeped in tradition. Like a woman getting an engagement and a wedding ring. By sharing the same last name, it creates an added sense of unity within a family. Unfortunately, coupling last names would be an ideal solution but it doesn't translate well into successive generations. Ex: Smith-Grant + White-Hall->Smith-Grant-White-Hall.
That said, you should just talk with him seriously, if it bothers you that much and doesn't sit down and listen, he isn't the right guy. However, you shouldn't force the issue (even if it isn't in the future), as it is expecting a lot from a guy.
Well I mean, There are definitely government perks besides love to being in a marriage- such as tax benefits, inheritance rights and shared medical insurance that are not as accessible to those not married- heterosexual civil unions included.
And the last name issue, it creates unity, in a family- but traditionally the woman is the one to lose her sense of identity, not the male, so there is some sexist context to that as well...
But political opinions aside, I just feel like I should be able to question and say these things with my boyfriend not just brushing me off.
is it? i know this isn't really the whole discussion, but i wonder if it is that big a deal.
personally, i am pretty indifferent about if my wife were to take my name. but outside of friends and co-workers (who are either friends or unimportant) who would know?
that seems like that would go against the apparent sentiment of the thread. i thought she was asking more of how to approach the discussion. handing out literature seems like the stereotype of what not to do to get people into your head.
I wasn't so much seriously asking him to consider taking my last name (even I don't really like my last name) as just to consider how I might feel taking his. I feel like this situation is frustrating, because is it really expecting a lot from a guy to consider how I might feel doing things that although are traditional, are rooted in me losing my rights/identity?
I don't want to have to ask each dude I date: Are you a feminist too? I just want someone to understand where I'm coming from, and try to compromise with me- not laugh at me.
Please see what I wrote in the above comment.
I'd be pissed.
Edit: I think if they really do marginalize your opinions as you make it sound, the only way you're going to get them to change is to have an all-out screaming match at them one day. It sounds bad, but unless you get angry at them, they won't realize that you are being serious here. Once they all get the 'oh shit, she wasn't joking?!' look on their faces, then you'll know you got through to them.
Amen.
How did you present your opinion? Did you say it in a, "If I take your name I lose my identity" kind of way, or "Losing my original last name is a difficult undertaking" kind of way? If you presented it as a strong feminist view he might have taken it to be standard feminazi affair.
Damn, I've said 4 times that I did not actually expect him to take my last name, but to think about how I would feel taking his.
I'm not saying there aren't men out there that won't entertain that notion, but I think you are trying to prove this to your current boyfriend and from the few sentences in your original post, I don't ever see that happening. Ever. So, I suggest you either drop him or drop the subject.
Regarding your male friends...well, what can I say? Mockery is a normal part of friendship. It merely manifests itself in a gender-specific manner because they know that's something that gets your goat. I would only be offended insofar as any piece of mockery is offensive, not on a fundamental philosophical level. My best friend is a Republican and I'm a Democrat and we tease each other all the time. Even though some of the things we say to each other can be based in brutal honesty, it's really said in good fun, and neither of us feel as if the other is aiming to wound the other philosophically. It's just ribbing. Idiosyncrasies are often the target of mockery among friends, and most friends view philosophical differences as somewhat idiosyncratic.
She wasn't expecting him to do it.
If you still value them, then the next time someone talks about women or you in a degrading manor, tell them that ýou're not going to hang out with them if they keep it up and promptly leave. Not in a huff mind you. Give them a polite warning or notice first.
If they are good friends they will value your company enough to cut it out on future dates.
That said, you can't be manipulative of your friends and you need to be careful about how you come off to them.
Edit: and to your boyfriend, his refuseal to consider your opinions about marriage is kind of troubling. It really shouldn't be a big deal for a woman not to take the name of her husband. She has a family history of her own and should have the option of continuing to honor that history through her surname, if she choses. What's more troubling though is his demeaning manor.
I think a heartfelt talk about would be the best option in his case. Don't try to label him as a hypocrit or insensitive but talk about how you feel and felt when you had that talk.
Secret Satan
I'm just saying that your comparison isn't quite fair, because he would be dealing with more than just losing his identity if he did that. You don't want to fit into the status quo, but his concerns are exactly the opposite. He probably could have argued his point more eloquently, but maybe he thought you were joking.
Thank you for understanding what I'm trying to say here. Maybe I should just lay it on the line and just be like, take it or leave it. I feel like I'm at the end of my rope. On the other hand, I really do care for everyone, especially my boyfriend so I hope that something educational would come out of direct conflict and not the end all be all to our relationship.
My earlier post is relevant to this as well, but I'll just reiterate that an occasional and normal part of friendship is being unsupportive. Sorry, but it is not my responsibility as a friend to entertain every "crazy" or perceived crazy philosophical notion that my friends subscribe to. I've mocked friends, they've mocked me. That's life. Support groups and lodges are where people go to discuss their philosophical ideals with like-minded people. I think it is a little unfair to expect your friends to pander to your philosophical notions, and if so, then you should find different friends.
But what is your point? That there is a double standard? I think your boyfriend understands that. I'm sure Zek does. I do. But I think the problem here is that you are attaching too much weight to the fact that it is a double standard and, frankly, your boyfriend just doesn't care. I know I don't. I will never take my wife's name. As for my own last name, I'm considering disowning my entire family at this point, so I'm not sure my opinion entirely speaks for the majority, but I will assume that an overwhelming majority of society is well aware that this is a double standard but subscribes to it anyway.
But you are the one setting up conditionals. You are the one defining the threshold for which you are willing to entertain these relationships (friendships and otherwise). You are saying "well, if they don't stop acting this way and respecting my philosophy enough that they don't do this, this, and that, then I don't want to be friends with them anymore." Which is fine. There's nothing morally wrong with choosing your friends. But you are making this out to be their fault. You are trying to change them, which is kind of...well, I won't be insulting here, so I'll just use the word "unrealistic." You need to either accept people for who they are or let go of them. At least, that is true where friendships are concerned. I've learned that most women have the idea (and ability!) to change their boyfriend's outlook on things to quite a degree. But friendships, I believe, exist outside of that possibility.
Perhaps you do not attach importance to some of the opinions I'm expressing, but the fact is that I do, and think they are worth discussing. I'm a multi-faceted person, and I promise I laugh much more/antagonize like any other person in a group of friends- but these issues are serious to me, and I don't want to feel alienated from an otherwise awesome group of people in feeling this way.
I am asking for help in being able to talk about them without being dismissed- not for approval on my actual opinions themselves.
Why not?
You don't have to put any particular ideological label on it. If you're dating somebody, and it's starting to look serious, it's perfectly reasonable to talk to them about their attitudes on issues like relationships, marriage, last names, etc. "Do you ever plan to get married someday," is a pretty innocuous question, and "How would you feel if I kept my last name if we were to get married?" is a natural extension of that line of conversation.
Now as for your current boyfriend right now...
If you're trying to bring up issues that are important to you and he's not taking you seriously, that's a pretty major problem in and of itself. How about, next time something like this comes up, just be blunt: "This issue is important to me and I don't think you're taking my feelings seriously."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
It seemed like you were talking to him with a group of people, you should probably talk to him about your concerns in private. Explain that they are ideas that are important to you, and how him ridiculing them, and by extension you, in front of people made you feel.
I think that last sentence is coherent.
I really think that any goal that involves getting him to change his opinions is probably unrealistic. Getting him to treat your ideas with the respect they deserve, is more important and far more likely. He shouldn't have to agree with you, but dismissing your opinions isn't really something I'd advise putting up with.
edit:err.. that first part was in response to Zek and all the folks giving him props for pointing out the blindingly obvious.
I don't think said advice exists, so I am advising you in my own way. I think you need to get over the idea that your opinion on such things matters to other people to the degree you think they should. They matter to you. I'm sure your friends realize this. But it isn't their responsibility to cater to your philosophical outlook. And it's kind of counterproductive to expect them to.
My advice is to stop letting it bother you, because you don't have any other solution I would advise. You're not going to convince them to be more tolerant of your feminism, because that just isn't how people tick. Sorry, but the outcome you are looking for, I think, will never happen.
It's pretty damn unfair to dump his ass without at least discussing it with him. Maybe he just doesn't realise it's big issue for Thujone.
Sit down, tell him plainly and uncertainly how you feel - pretty much exactly what you said in the first post of this thread. Don't have a yelling match. Do it in a context where he has to take you seriously, and can't dismiss your views as just an outburst or whatever.
If he's dismissive and off-hand at that stage, then you need to decide how your differing values affect your relationship. If you don't believe that he respects you as a woman, you should feel perfectly comfortable dumping his ass.
This isn't an issue of political grandstanding - this is an issue of someone being mature enough to at least entertain their SO's philosophies in a hypothetical exercise.
Surely you can tell the difference between:
"Hey Timmy, what if you took my name if we got married?"
"Heh. I'd be Timmy Jones then. Wouldn't that be weird? But I don't think I'd be comfortable with that, sorry."
and:
"Hey Timmy, what if you took my name if we got married?"
"HAHAHAHAHA YOU CRAZY!"
The thing you guys don't seem to be addressing is that respect for women in general is almost corollary to respect to individual women. If Thujone feels that her BF doesn't respect women in general, I can see why she's questioning how much respect he has for her. It's all perfectly valid, IMO.
To the subject at hand, how much do you know about your boyfriend's values? How much does he know about your values? As a for instance, there was a rift between some friends of mine when one, the feminist, brought up similar issues with the other, a second generation Catholic Italian immigrant. Neither of them expected such a conversation to become heated but it quickly did as their value structures collided. It's an extreme example but a fair one. You were discussing a somewhat polarizing topic.
I think this trouble you're having, specifically on the subject of the last name thing, is largely due to your different perspectives on the matter. It is acceptable and expected in this society for the woman to take the man's name upon marriage. There are practical reasons behind this, as previously mentioned, and the distinction that the name be patrilinear may as well be arbitrary. Were it the other way around, it still wouldn't be "fair." Still, I recognize and respect your reluctance.
As for that, you'll find that you can joint file your taxes, name anyone you want in your will, and establish any dependent as a beneficiary of most any insurance plan without marriage. In truth, the only reason marriage is recognized by the government is marriage licenses. Marriage licenses were only created to prevent interracial marriages as it allowed the government a say in who could marry whom.
Thujone I understand you aren't trying to make your opinion the end all thing with your boyfriend, but at the same time your b/f was rather immature with waving the discussion off because "that is how it is."
In the end he can't agree with your opinion unless he willinging does so but at the same time he can be a fucking grown-up and at least seriously listen to what you feel about.
The only advice I can give is that if it is a problem which really bothers you, you need to discuss about it in a mature manner. The least he can do is acknowledge to agree to disagree.
And seriously guys the worst that will happen to a dude adopting his wife's last name is that he might get some flack from close family and friends who consider it taboo. It certaintly wouldn't be the end of the world some of you are making it out to be.
I can see the difference between those two situations, however the part of my post your are quoting is in reference to her friends, not her boyfriend. Two entirely different relationships. I think boyfriends owe a little more "serious" respect to their girlfriend's opinions than friends do. I'm not saying he is to be commended for laughing at her. Nor am I saying that her friends are. If her friends are doing that, they are dicks. I'm not refuting that. But in the scope of help/advice, I'm advising her to either get new friends, or, if she really, really, REALLY wants to keep them, I'm advising her not to get worked up about the way they act. You can expect a certain civility from your boyfriend that you really shouldn't from your day-to-day friends. Friends mock. That's life. I guess I'm cynical, but I just feel that this is how life is.
I mean, I have mostly female friends, to be honest. I don't complain when they talk about shoes or makeup or PMS (no, wait, I do fucking hate when they talk about their periods - please stop). So, MOST of the time it doesn't bother me. They talk about men and how stupid men are sometimes, and it may irk me a little inside, but I hardly ever argue the matter with them because they believe what they believe and my words are not going to modify their philosophy. If it bothered me that much, if our philosophies were simply insoluble, I would not be friends with the girl in question, simple as that. I don't think you have any other choice with friends; it's either acceptance or you're not friends.
But if you say something like "look, this is serious, and I want you to give serious consideration to my side before you start saying anything" and he still laughs at you, something like "well, I'm pretty pissed that you're not even willing to consider my feelings, so maybe we shouldn't hang out for a few days" wouldn't be out of line and may be a valid slap in the face to get him to wake the fuck up. And then if he takes that poorly and responds stupidly, then break-ups may be worth considering.
And the first person to call that emotional-blackmail can eat a dick. A brief time apart to think about this on his own is about the only thing that I can think of working for him if he actually laughed in her face when she suggested it.
Well, you're an idiot. Feminism is defined as the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. Equality doesn't happen when there's different and variable treatment. Read a book or take a women's studies/gender studies course (yes, in many schools they've changed the name because too many people don't know the difference between feminism and female chauvanism and think that only women can benefit from studying feminist theory).
I don't know if I gave them impression that she should dump him permanently and immediately. My point is that if she finds herself unable to reach an understanding with him to a level she can tolerate, she should dump him.
Obviously, it is impossible to glean whether or not it is possible for them reach an understanding based on a single incident, so implicit in my suggestion is that they have a go at it and do what is necessary to figure out if it is possible. If she decides after multiple situations and attempts at reconciliation of their philosophies that it isn't, she should find someone else.
If you want to talk any more about feminism or dude-related problems, let me know - I am a (happily married) hairy-legged organics-eating feminist type person. I also have links to lots of pretty awesome feminist blogs that have some good reading to get you thinking, or to provide to your more Neanderthal-ly inclined guy friends. Good luck.
Can I ask: why did you seek the male physical ideal as a means of equality? Why not force your husband to shave his legs and armpits instead, while you do the same?
I just find it weird that you would say "hairy-legged," as if that has any real bearing on feminism or being feminist. Unless you just meant that as a sarcastic joke about the male perception of feminism.
I also consider myself a feminist.
That was not always the case... as usual, educating myself opened my eyes to a lot of things... feminism being one of them.
So, I disagree with the people here who say you can't change anyones opinion. I think you even have the right idea, turn their thoughts back on them i.e. how would you feel if you were in my position...
Either way, the issue does not appear to be your feminist beliefs so much as your value among your friends. This is likely a communication issue that needs to be discussed. Just lay it all out on the table... they will likely be defensive at first, but the trick is not letting that dissuade you from having the conversation. Once they know your feelings, maybe things will change.