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Record Player
Saucerful
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hey everyone. I'm looking for a good record player. I'm pretty dissatisfied with my current one, but then again it was relatively cheap. Still, a turntable playing a quarter-tone too sharp isn't ideal for someone with absolute pitch.
So, I live in Canada, and I don't even really know where to start looking. I'm probably looking at getting something within the $300-$400 range. I want something with excellent sound quality, preferrably with EQ control and absolutely must have pitch control. Also, something that allows calibration (I hear that's for eliminating wavering pitch?) would be nice and a model that's reliable and has readily available replacement styli.
I don't know about amps and preamps. I guess something with a built-in preamp would be more convenient, but I know nothing of how this affects sound quality so if it's better to get an amp, I'll definitely get one. Also, if that's the case, I'd like a suggestion for one of those too please.
I'll be doing most listening through headphones. They're pretty expensive, and I might even be replacing them with more expensive ones so assume I want good sound quality from the record player, because I'll definitely be able to tell. I'll probably be doing some listening on speakers, but I've got a medium-end stereo that can handle that. So, speakers and headphones are covered. Just need suggestions for turntable + (if needed) the amp.
So, I live in Canada, and I don't even really know where to start looking. I'm probably looking at getting something within the $300-$400 range. I want something with excellent sound quality, preferrably with EQ control and absolutely must have pitch control. Also, something that allows calibration (I hear that's for eliminating wavering pitch?) would be nice and a model that's reliable and has readily available replacement styli.
I don't know about amps and preamps. I guess something with a built-in preamp would be more convenient, but I know nothing of how this affects sound quality so if it's better to get an amp, I'll definitely get one. Also, if that's the case, I'd like a suggestion for one of those too please.
I'll be doing most listening through headphones. They're pretty expensive, and I might even be replacing them with more expensive ones so assume I want good sound quality from the record player, because I'll definitely be able to tell. I'll probably be doing some listening on speakers, but I've got a medium-end stereo that can handle that. So, speakers and headphones are covered. Just need suggestions for turntable + (if needed) the amp.
"...Did we do anything after this?"
"I've a feeling we did..."
"I've a feeling we did..."
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First of all, I think your concept/understanding of turntables needs to change. Turntables don't have equalization controls. Most don't have pitch control (ie, rotation speed regulation) anymore because they don't need it. These days, if the platter is turning too fast or too slow, there is something wrong with your turntable. A properly functioning turntable rotates with a speed variance of under 1%.
I have no idea what you mean by "something that allows calibration".
Replacement styli are entirely independant from the turntable. They're part of the cartridge, which is a separate purchase from the turntable. The cartridge needs to be selected based upon the turntable's specifications. Vertical tracking force, compliance, etc, all determine what cartridges are a good match for the turntable. If you use the wrong one and the resonant frequency is too high, you'll be able to hear it, too low and the stylus will pop out of the groove, probably damaging it and the record.
You'll be hard pressed to find any turntables with integrated preamps. Back when vinyl was popular, the amplifier had a phono stage, a dedicated phono input that lead to the preamp. Modern amplifiers don't have a phono stage anymore, so you'll need to buy a discrete preamp. Without knowing what your price range is for a preamp, on the lower end, you have the Creek OBH-18 and higher up the chain ($500 range) you have things like the Pro-Ject "Tube Box" and the Clearaudio "Smart" phono stage. You can easily spend a couple grand on a preamp alone. Then you need an amplifier. I don't know how you were using your headphones with a turntable before, but you need an amplifier to produce sound. Even CD players and soundcards have integrated amplifiers. If you have a home theatre receiver, that's an amplifier and if it's got a free input channel and a headphone out, you can use that, though you'd be better off with a discrete headphone amplifier because the integrated headphone amp in most receivers is garbage.
Anyway, you're right. I don't know much about these things. I guess I was looking for a one stop solution around $300-$400. If I need to go $500 then I guess I might, but I'm not doing any DJing, it's purely for listening enjoyment. So it sounds to me like all I'll need is the turntable itself and a preamp? I've got a set of headphones, and a stereo system with phono inputs on it. So by the sounds of things, I could buy a turntable, plug the phono jacks into the preamp, then out of the preamp into my stereo. Then from there, out to headphones.
I guess I'm willing to sacrifice some quality issues to get this thing within a reasonable price. I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars for something I'll be using less than my CD player.
My main concern is the pitch. My current turntable spins too fast, to the point of being between a quarter tone and semi-tone too sharp. You say that newer turntables don't have this issue anymore. Is that for belt drive or direct drive or both? And which is better? Also, by "calibration" I'm not entirely sure what I meant. I had a friend tell me that you can get wavering pitch if the table isn't spinning properly, and you can calibrate it somehow?
Like I said, I don't know much about this. I guess I'll revise my previous request of an *excellent* sounding system to a *good* sounding system, with proper, steady pitch.
"I've a feeling we did..."
What you're talking about with calibration is pitch control. My basic turntable has it to allow for fine adjustments both if the table ends up a little off, or if I simply like hearing something tuned differently.
What I would recommend is to invest the money now on a good turntable and appropriate cartridge, and listen to that through the phono inputs on your receiver. A phono preamp if you've already got a phono input on your receiver is largely redundant, although audiophiles will argue that if it's not going through the maximum number of tubes, the sound quality is diminished. Meh. I've listened to records plugged into the phono input of my receiver and they sound essentially the same as the cd.
the other thing that a phono preamp does is run the signal through the RIAA filter, which adjusts the sound to sound more like, you know, regular music. But, again, you've already got a basic phono preamp on your stereo.
Apparently Todd is quite the resource to getting turntable stuff.
With my headphone rig completely the call of vinyl is getting strong.
Many receivers don't have a phono stage these days, and those that do are VERY poor as most manufacturers consider it a waste as extremely few customers use it anymore. And more importantly, the preamp has a large impact on how the system sounds, moreso than the power amp does by far. If he's going to be using a decent turntable with expensive headphones, he owes it to himself to NOT use the garbage integrated phono stage in the receiver and get a dedicated phono preamp. He should really get a dedicated headphone amplifier as well, because the integrated headphone amp suffers from the same problems as the phono preamp in receivers. There's little point in investing in a decent turntable and a comparable cartridge if he's going to degrade the sound quality by using poor quality amplification.
And no "audiophile" would advocate running through two preamp stages. There are people who call themselves audiophiles who would waste money on components that make no audible difference (interconnects, various isolation devices for solid state amplifiers, etc), but it is stupid to make ignorant generalizations about anyone who values audio fidelity with greater importance than you do. You may be happy with whatever (presumably) inexpensive hardware you use, but not everyone is satisfied with that level of performance and they are willing to spend considerably more for the last margins of accuracy. Tube amplifiers, though traditionally expensive, can be among the top performing amplifiers available. Don't try to tell me that a stereo or home theatre receiver even approaches the fidelity of a SET amplifier. The difference is like night and day. Nelson Pass and Kevin Gilmore don't just shove components into their amplifier designs because they can.
Good point. No point spending $2k on a preamp though, ever probably.
I personally run my record player (a $200 technics w/ a $40 grado) into a DJ mixer, since my "stereo" is pretty much just for tv and dvd, while my music stuff is all over in my "studio." Is that low quality? It certainly doesn't sound bad to my ears, and I typically record things over to have them on my computer, with the rest of my iTunes library so record stuff gets mixed in with everything else, sound-wise. The only difference I can ever hear is the occasional pop or crackle as the song leads in or out.
One of the things I learned about music stuff is that it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking things sound better with no appreciable comparison. I've got a friend who had a $20 pair of Sony headphones that started to die on him, and he was asking me about my headphones. I've got 2 pairs of Sennheisers, one HD565 and another HD590. Even though the HD 590s cost about $100 more than the HD565, he couldn't understand how they could sound *that* much better. So I let him borrow the lower-quality headphones first, so he could start to hear what "good" headphones sounded like.
Without some baseline comparison, the differences would be lost on him. The OP's current record playing solution involves a record player that plays too fast, plugged into the same stereo solution. Why not upgrade the record player and cartridge, and then if he still feels he needs a higher quality solution (or saves up another couple hundred dollars)? After all, his speakers might be low quality too, and then it starts getting into a "replace everything in my HiFi" thread.
A good record player will get him substantially further along in his quest than spending $250 on a preamp and then getting a lower quality cartridge/player. Especially when his current comparison model doesn't even play a record correctly. Not to mention that while the phono inputs on many cheap receivers aren't high quality (of course, his could certainly be passable), they're not the root cause of his problem and will quite certainly work. You don't need a separate preamp.
I think, based on a combination of all your suggestions, I'm going to get my sights on a good turntable first. Get that home, test it out. THEN once I've obtained a turntable that spins correctly and is to my satisfaction, I'll see how it sounds through my stereo, and if that's not up to my quality standards, I'll start looking at replacing other units in my Hi-fi system, starting with the purchase of a decent phono preamp. Then from there, maybe a separate headphone amp and maybe even a better set of headphones.
I suppose, ultimately, my budget is a bit flexible. If I need to spend say $400-$500 on just the table, then get a few hundred dollar preamp later, etc, I can do that. At the end of the day, sound quality is king for me. I just don't want to have to commit to several thousand dollars for the entire package. I suppose $1000 is the ABSOLUTE upper limit.
I guess there's a few more things I need to clear up before I really start looking and that's decisions on what kind of turntable I want: direct drive vs belt drive. I understand the mechanical differences, but how does this affect quality and other factors like longevity of the turntable?
Also, how do you figure out what cartridges/styli go with the turntable? And what about replacing the stylus? I plan on buying a few extra ones in advance, but how often should they be replaced? I don't want to damage my vinyl as a lot of it is now out of print and goes for a hefty price on eBay, plus I want it to sound good. I apologize for all the questions but I want to shake my newb status before I go out and blow all this money. I don't want to make the same mistakes twice.
And what are some good brick&mortar stores that sell this gear? This is the sort of thing I'd like to be able to test stuff out and return/exchange stuff, etc, so that I can make sure I get the perfect combination of gear for my needs. Although I buy a fair bit of music online (vinyl, CD, etc) I'd rather buy the gear in person. I'm on the EAST coast of Canada, if that helps any.
"I've a feeling we did..."
Belt drives are usually cheaper, so if you don't wanna scratch and backspin, you might want to go that route.
Course, if you want to do that fun DJ stuff, your gonna need two direct drives and a mixer....
Anyways, driect drives definitly last longer as the belts can wear and slip.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
I wouldn't buy a turntable from a DJ ever. SL-1200 Mk II's are nice, but they beat the crap out of their turntables for a living. If a DJ won't use it anymore, it's not at all fit for listening in your home.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that the OP wants to DJ. He's listening to vinyl at home with his headphones.
As for direct drive versus belt drive, direct drive has zero maintenance costs and you never have to worry about belt stretching, but the downfall of direct drive is that you often get more motor noise (rumble) because it's coupled with the spindle. Belt drive motors can be mounted off-board and very little vibration is transferred through the rubber belt, so the noise floor is lower. As the belt stretches, the rotational speed of the platter does begin to stray from exact 33rpm/45rpm. That said, you can get direct drive turntables that are as smooth and quiet as a belt drive table. It simply costs more. In your price range, I'd stick to belt drive turntables for optimal sound quality.
More great information. Thank you again.
"I've a feeling we did..."
Well it's been a few months and I've done some looking around. Unfortunately, around where I live, nobody caries those brands. Currently, I think I only have access to Technics and Numark. I did a little research on those brands and my general understanding is that the Technics 1200 would probably be overkill for my rig, but I also get the impression that Numark aren't terribly great. Any thoughts?
Also, I've done a little testing, and I will need a phono stage. My current speaker system doesn't have one.
"I've a feeling we did..."