It may or may not be important to point out that I personally would never be in that hypothetical situation for multiple reasons (I'm taken, don't engage in one night stands, would be able to tell it was a transwoman). Regardless, as you have pointed out, no one has suggested that violence would be a reasonable response, and would certainly be far worse than the transgender person's failure to disclose their status. But this refusal to see the other side of the equation, that someone should have the sexual autonomy to decide for themselves if they are comfortable having sex with a transgendered person, is rediculous.
You're free to feel however you like.
You are not entitled to people's medical history if it doesn't affect you. It's an obscenely selfish attitude.
Its a funny world you live in where having sex with someone doesn't affect them. Your wife must be miserable.
Now I might not agree with you, but kudos. That was quite the zinger
It may or may not be important to point out that I personally would never be in that hypothetical situation for multiple reasons (I'm taken, don't engage in one night stands, would be able to tell it was a transwoman). Regardless, as you have pointed out, no one has suggested that violence would be a reasonable response, and would certainly be far worse than the transgender person's failure to disclose their status. But this refusal to see the other side of the equation, that someone should have the sexual autonomy to decide for themselves if they are comfortable having sex with a transgendered person, is rediculous.
You're free to feel however you like.
You are not entitled to people's medical history if it doesn't affect you. It's an obscenely selfish attitude.
Its a funny world you live in where having sex with someone doesn't affect them. Your wife must be miserable.
How would having a one night stand with a tgirl and never knowing affect you?
In response to the first sentence, again, no it really couldn't have because I have never had a one night stand. As for the rest, the technology really hasn't progressed to the point where the particularly discerning observer cannot tell this used to be a man/woman.
Ahahahahaha
Somebody's never been to Thailand.
Or [chat] for that matter...
Probably not the place to ask this, but what's with Thailand? Is there a reason they have this reputation?
[chat]'s a different matter all together.
I think it's more that various Asian countries have people of smaller stature as well as far more loosely enforced sex laws.
Thailand in particular if all the stories I've heard from buddies are to be believed.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Probably not the place to ask this, but what's with Thailand? Is there a reason they have this reputation?
Southeast Asia in general has a lot of third gender and transgendered people and stuff that are more visible (socially) than the US and other "Western" countries.
But it's gotten a huge reputation for things relaying to transgendered people in general because there are high-profile sexual reassignment clinics there that use techniques far more advanced than American doctors, and surgery is like half the price. Every trans person I know that has had surgery has done so in Thailand. It's basically better in every way.
It may or may not be important to point out that I personally would never be in that hypothetical situation for multiple reasons (I'm taken, don't engage in one night stands, would be able to tell it was a transwoman). Regardless, as you have pointed out, no one has suggested that violence would be a reasonable response, and would certainly be far worse than the transgender person's failure to disclose their status. But this refusal to see the other side of the equation, that someone should have the sexual autonomy to decide for themselves if they are comfortable having sex with a transgendered person, is rediculous.
You're free to feel however you like.
You are not entitled to people's medical history if it doesn't affect you. It's an obscenely selfish attitude.
It does affect you though. If part of your identity is not having sex with people you consider men and you consider transsexuals to really be men, then not having this fact disclosed to you means they are eroding your identity. I assume from your other posts that you are a big believer in the integrity of personal identities.
If part of my identity is not having sex with people I consider reptilian humanoids and I consider people with O type blood to really be reptilian humanoids, then not having this fact disclosed to me means they are eroding my identity.
This is what I was getting at earlier when I mention not understanding trans issues.
The fact that you keep thinking they're not really who they are is very much at issue here. I don't know what the solution is, but until you understand that we're going to keep having the same cycle of posts.
You do understand that even if someone is well educated on trans issues, they can still disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex. While I have admitted to not knowing any transgendered people personally, my own educational exposure to the subject is less than zero. Its certainly not vast either, and while I cannot prove that further education could not change my views, the assertion that it would definately, seems presumptious. Someone can be well versed in a subject without accepting all popular conclusions on said subject.
You do understand that even if someone is well educated on trans issues, they can still disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex.
Before you spend too much time writing up a post that will be forgotten by many ten pages later, you should realize that someone has pointed a lot about how biology is messy as fuck and supports more diversity than most people consider.
Not just showing off my knowledge of sex science I swear :P
@Shivahn , well, this is basically the exact post I had been gearing up to write SOOOOOOOOOOO
Like, literally.
You even mentioned SRY transposition to the X chromosome which BLEW MY FUCKING MIND when I read about it and was part of the lynchpin of my argument along with CAIS.
You do understand that even if someone is well educated on trans issues, they can still disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex.
They could. And we have a word for those people.
Yes, I know, bigot. Congratulations, Quid, you know a word. Are you looking for a medal, or something? That word doesn't scare me as much as you seem to think it does, and your continued effort to use it in order to stigmatize people who disagree with you seems a little, a little, oh damn what's the word I'm looking for.....
Cliff on
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
You do understand that even if someone is well educated on trans issues, they can still disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex.
They could. And we have a word for those people.
Quid, this puts you in something of a dilemma.
Either you're attributing a meaning to "bigot" which is at once idiosyncratic and relegates bigotry to something relatively benign, certainly not something which denotes anything like what is generally understood and the connotations you are invoking. Under this reading it would be possible to have the most permissive and pro-trans attitudes possible* - knowingly married to a transperson, believe that transpeople should have their SRS subsidised by the government, they should be allowed to marry and recognised under the law as their preferred gender and sex regardless of whether they've had SRS, be provided counselling and therapy in order to facilitate their change and (re-)integration into society even being allowed to use whichever bathroom they choose and whatever else you care to stipulate - and yet one still might disagree on the metaphysics of identity and thus be a bigot.
On the other hand, if you're arguing that bigotry directed at transpeople is predicated upon disagreeing on the metaphysics of identity then you're affirming the consequence by concluding that disagreeing on the metaphysics of identity is indicative of bigotry.
* In fact, you could even BE a transperson.
Apothe0sis on
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
You do understand that even if someone is well educated on trans issues, they can still disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex.
They could. And we have a word for those people.
Yes, I know, bigot. Congratulations, Quid, you know a word. Are you looking for a medal, or something? That word doesn't scare me as much as you seem to think it does, and your continued effort to use it in order to stigmatize people who disagree with you seems a little, a little, oh damn what's the word I'm looking for.....
Correct?
But kidding aside, I'm getting really confused by some of these arguments. What exactly are you basing the ascertain of transsexual != the gender they say they are.
I mean, it's not in the brain. Or the personality. Or the DNA. Or whatever the hell a person is.
I'm getting a "I know it when I see it vibe". Except for the part where you'll actually know it when you see it.
It's almost like people believe they're lying, when the truth is we're (me included) are working of an incorrect assumption of what sex/gender actually is.
It may or may not be important to point out that I personally would never be in that hypothetical situation for multiple reasons (I'm taken, don't engage in one night stands, would be able to tell it was a transwoman). Regardless, as you have pointed out, no one has suggested that violence would be a reasonable response, and would certainly be far worse than the transgender person's failure to disclose their status. But this refusal to see the other side of the equation, that someone should have the sexual autonomy to decide for themselves if they are comfortable having sex with a transgendered person, is rediculous.
You're free to feel however you like.
You are not entitled to people's medical history if it doesn't affect you. It's an obscenely selfish attitude.
It does affect you though. If part of your identity is not having sex with people you consider men and you consider transsexuals to really be men, then not having this fact disclosed to you means they are eroding your identity. I assume from your other posts that you are a big believer in the integrity of personal identities.
If part of my identity is not having sex with people I consider reptilian humanoids and I consider people with O type blood to really be reptilian humanoids, then not having this fact disclosed to me means they are eroding my identity.
This is what I was getting at earlier when I mention not understanding trans issues.
The fact that you keep thinking they're not really who they are is very much at issue here. I don't know what the solution is, but until you understand that we're going to keep having the same cycle of posts.
You do understand that even if someone is well educated on trans issues, they can still disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex. While I have admitted to not knowing any transgendered people personally, my own educational exposure to the subject is less than zero. Its certainly not vast either, and while I cannot prove that further education could not change my views, the assertion that it would definately, seems presumptious. Someone can be well versed in a subject without accepting all popular conclusions on said subject.
You can disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex; I actually think that, philosophically, there's a decent amount of merit to the viewpoint. You can believe that to your heart's content and I won't call you a bigot.
What you can't do without being a bigot is use that as the basis for not using the right pronouns, telling trans people to their face that they aren't "real" men or women, telling them they have to wear a scarlet "T" in bars in case somebody like you is accidentally attracted to them, etc.
So I kinda disagree slightly with the post you quoted--the issue isn't that he believes they aren't who they say they are, it's that he cares about this philosophical question deeply enough to feel that his own identity is compromised by associating with them, and that he cares enough to disrespect living breathing people.
Dudes who don't want to kiss dudes because they don't like that are fine. Dudes who, when they somehow kiss dudes, go "yuck" are also fine. Dudes who, when they somehow kiss dudes, feel that their heterosexuality has somehow been compromised are being geese, and that goes double for dudes who define the women they kissed as dudes and get all tied in knots over "how do we define a woman, really".
"Yuck! I can taste her extra X chromosome!"
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Having become a generic transgender thread, this discussion has served its purpose, and Astareth's post really does say everything that needs to be said.
I think the forum has reached its allotted limit of discussions wherein things are explained at length to @spacekungfuman and @_J_ for a while.
Posts
Now I might not agree with you, but kudos. That was quite the zinger
:P
How would having a one night stand with a tgirl and never knowing affect you?
I think it's more that various Asian countries have people of smaller stature as well as far more loosely enforced sex laws.
Thailand in particular if all the stories I've heard from buddies are to be believed.
Southeast Asia in general has a lot of third gender and transgendered people and stuff that are more visible (socially) than the US and other "Western" countries.
But it's gotten a huge reputation for things relaying to transgendered people in general because there are high-profile sexual reassignment clinics there that use techniques far more advanced than American doctors, and surgery is like half the price. Every trans person I know that has had surgery has done so in Thailand. It's basically better in every way.
Also you get to go to Thailand.
You do understand that even if someone is well educated on trans issues, they can still disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex. While I have admitted to not knowing any transgendered people personally, my own educational exposure to the subject is less than zero. Its certainly not vast either, and while I cannot prove that further education could not change my views, the assertion that it would definately, seems presumptious. Someone can be well versed in a subject without accepting all popular conclusions on said subject.
@Shivahn , well, this is basically the exact post I had been gearing up to write SOOOOOOOOOOO
Like, literally.
You even mentioned SRY transposition to the X chromosome which BLEW MY FUCKING MIND when I read about it and was part of the lynchpin of my argument along with CAIS.
Yes, I know, bigot. Congratulations, Quid, you know a word. Are you looking for a medal, or something? That word doesn't scare me as much as you seem to think it does, and your continued effort to use it in order to stigmatize people who disagree with you seems a little, a little, oh damn what's the word I'm looking for.....
Either you're attributing a meaning to "bigot" which is at once idiosyncratic and relegates bigotry to something relatively benign, certainly not something which denotes anything like what is generally understood and the connotations you are invoking. Under this reading it would be possible to have the most permissive and pro-trans attitudes possible* - knowingly married to a transperson, believe that transpeople should have their SRS subsidised by the government, they should be allowed to marry and recognised under the law as their preferred gender and sex regardless of whether they've had SRS, be provided counselling and therapy in order to facilitate their change and (re-)integration into society even being allowed to use whichever bathroom they choose and whatever else you care to stipulate - and yet one still might disagree on the metaphysics of identity and thus be a bigot.
On the other hand, if you're arguing that bigotry directed at transpeople is predicated upon disagreeing on the metaphysics of identity then you're affirming the consequence by concluding that disagreeing on the metaphysics of identity is indicative of bigotry.
* In fact, you could even BE a transperson.
Correct?
But kidding aside, I'm getting really confused by some of these arguments. What exactly are you basing the ascertain of transsexual != the gender they say they are.
I mean, it's not in the brain. Or the personality. Or the DNA. Or whatever the hell a person is.
I'm getting a "I know it when I see it vibe". Except for the part where you'll actually know it when you see it.
It's almost like people believe they're lying, when the truth is we're (me included) are working of an incorrect assumption of what sex/gender actually is.
Have you read @Shivahn 's post? It's scary.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
You can disagree that transgendered people are factually their desired sex; I actually think that, philosophically, there's a decent amount of merit to the viewpoint. You can believe that to your heart's content and I won't call you a bigot.
What you can't do without being a bigot is use that as the basis for not using the right pronouns, telling trans people to their face that they aren't "real" men or women, telling them they have to wear a scarlet "T" in bars in case somebody like you is accidentally attracted to them, etc.
So I kinda disagree slightly with the post you quoted--the issue isn't that he believes they aren't who they say they are, it's that he cares about this philosophical question deeply enough to feel that his own identity is compromised by associating with them, and that he cares enough to disrespect living breathing people.
Dudes who don't want to kiss dudes because they don't like that are fine. Dudes who, when they somehow kiss dudes, go "yuck" are also fine. Dudes who, when they somehow kiss dudes, feel that their heterosexuality has somehow been compromised are being geese, and that goes double for dudes who define the women they kissed as dudes and get all tied in knots over "how do we define a woman, really".
"Yuck! I can taste her extra X chromosome!"
I think the forum has reached its allotted limit of discussions wherein things are explained at length to @spacekungfuman and @_J_ for a while.