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Moment of the Week - March 14, 2007
DMAC
Come at me, bro!Moderator Mod Emeritus
Come at me, bro!Moderator Mod Emeritus
I haven't gotten very far through this week's stack but New X-Men was fantastic as usual.
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And all of Civil War: The Confession.
Spider-Man: Anything?
Scorpion: Yeah, anything!
Spider-Man: Can you fly?
*kicks Scorpion out of high-rise window*
But the New X-Men one was good too.
Tony's last line in the first part of Confession.
"They're called chocos"
Anally.
The Irredeemable Ant-Man:
Also, The Confession was just a string of sad, sullen moments, occassionally punctuated by battles with zombies and King Arthur.
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You should.
Oh Tony, you monumental ass.
He is a sore loser, and as Confessions makes apparent, Rogers has never considered the alternative to his choices.
Say what you want about Tony, but the worst thing you can say is that he made bad choices (if you don't agree with them). Rogers, apparently, didn't even make a choice, because he never considered the other side.
He apparently never considered whether he was wrong, period. That's the reason he'd become disconnected from reality. That's why he was ill, not Stark.
Iron Man never considered the other side either. And you don't either. The other side is this... there are some principals that are worth fighting for. No matter what. No matter how things turn out.
Exactly. Tony never considered any side except his own, which was, "I'm always right because I'm so fucking smart. I know science. I am a genius."
He didn't even give anyone else the right to accept or deny what he thought would happen. He just went ahead and started making shadowy manuevers doing whatever he felt was necessary, when it could have been avoided if he had just tried to actually appeal to his friends rather than being an arrogant dick. I'm still not of the opinion that Confessions clears him, because as far as I'm concerned he's still morally ambiguous.
I love Stabbity Jones.
From Thunderbolts
Heh.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA
Hrm.
Okay. Get me the commision on superhuman affairs on the phone. Time to approve the next target.
Loses something without the crazy.
IIRC, Cap didn't get a chance to "consider the other side" he got a bunch of guns pulled on him and a nazi bitch telling him he would hunt down other heroes and make them register or else.
You ignoring this fucking fact again and again is the reason I hate you.
What? Wasn't Tony the one who
h5, Jeepguy, let's make out some more.
Thunderbolts for fucking crazy as balls Norman Osborn
Well, you don't recall correctly. We've been over repeatedly how - after fleeing - he could have decided to respect the civil justice system, and change the law just like every other citizen has the right and power to do. Unlike a normal citizen, Rogers decided he was better than the civil process, and that unlike a normal citizen he had the right to lead an armed rebellion.
He never went to the press.
He never went to lawyers.
He just fought. He tried to change the laws with his fists. The man wanted to be Superboy-Prime.
Pronouns aren't proper-nouns.
Seriously though, no matter what else is true about Stark's misdeeds or Rogers' good deeds, Rogers thought he was above the civil process that binds the rest of us. He wanted to change the laws with his fists. He never even tried to engage in the normal, American civil process.
He thought he knew better than the American people, and maybe he was right. But whether he was right or wrong in theory about SHRA, he was wrong to fight it with his fists. I repeat: he wanted to be Superboy-Prime.
/Of course, since he's not a comic reader....
Oh, Matt are you for the SHRA? I think this is the first time you've mentioned it.
It's not like he went on a rampage through the streets, clubbing the elderly with star-spangled fists and lighting dogs on fire.
And he did grant interviews to the press, albeit not so many because it would have met compromising his position. Sure he didn't go to a lawyer, but I'd assume some lawyer somewhere was already on the case on behalf of Prodigy or some other imprisoned hero. If no lawyer was willing to take the case, then what could Captain America have done to change the situation when aligning himself with one would have just gotten him captured?*
Cap, meanwhile, just went on fighting crime and saving teen heroes from the kind of authority that thinks you don't have rights if you're an alien or a robot. There never would have been a cataclysmic clash between the Secret Avengers and Stark's group if Stark had just made it clear that none of the unregistered heroes were in any danger, but he couldn't make that assurance and so freeing a bunch of people from the Negative Zone kinda seemed like the right thing to do since it'd seemed like their captors had gone insane.
In fact that whole thing could have been avoided if the Pro-Reg side simply refused to fight the Anti-Reg side, instead seeking to put public pressure on them while convincing them that Reed wasn't going to replace dissenters with robot clones and then stick the originals in a prison for the rest of their lives. Worse yet, this was the group that was meant to represent intelligent, responsible super-heroing. Evidentially, with Stark and Reed leading the charge, reasoned thinking means instigating atomic conflicts that leave the city in ruins when neither side of the war, by their very nature, is very interested in fighting each other or endangering innocents.
At best, Stark brought the superhero war he envisioned in Camelot into reality a few years earlier than it would have originally occurred. At worst, he stupidly fulfilled his own prophecy.
* But then we both know the reason lawyers weren't involved is because it would have made the story less accessible, so why even argue over the point when we know it wasn't omitted to make a specific point about Cap?
now I dont know about you but if I didnt want to register and i would be in the run too, and how the hell can you voice your opinion in the fucking negative zone!! You cant see loved ones, much less have a polite discussion with reporters on your views.
Oh, have my lawyer do it, you say. Nope sorry, you dont have rights unless you register so your fucked in that sense.
So tell me matt can you explain to me what options were availible to Captian America in this situation, because i cant think of any.
You know who Cap would be if he didn't stand up for his convictions? He would be nobody. And he sure as hell wouldn't be Captain America.
Why do you hate freedom so much?
Civil War 1:
Cap: This is bullshit!
Stark: Get a lawyer!
Cap: MAYBE I WILL!!!!!
Hm. That might have been a better written Civil War than what we got...BUT STILL.
'Cause that'd be dumb.
This is a place where we can share the awesomeness of the week.
...
Plus, your posts always make my brain bleed, mattharvest...
I'm not gonna debate him in here. I will mock him and call him a freedom-hater though. That's not debate, that's just good clean fun. :^:
(a) the validity of a law is utterly disconnected with the reasons it was passed. A law is valid if it is passed. Whether it is moral is another question, as is whether it is constitutional, advisable or any other number of separate, unrelated questions.
(b) We've been over this so many times, it's ridiculous. I've yet to hear a response to this simple point: once he fled, he never once (in a single comic, in the entirety of Civil War) tried to take part in the civil process. He immediately - literally, as soon as he could - started an armed rebellion. If any other normal person - e.g. a real-world literal person who disagreed with a law that would mean extensive imprisonment for them - took this path, none of you would defend them. You're only defending Rogers because he's Captain America, and not because his decisions were valid or good.
(a) We don't know any of that is true.
(b) Just because you fear prison, doesn't mean you have a right to flee the police. If you go steal some bread because you're starving, and then run from the police, then your starvation-defense (which is real, in some jurisdictions) has no relationship with fleeing from the police. While you'll get off on the theft (in those jurisdictions), you'll still be guilty of evading arrest. If you do like Rogers and beat up law enforcement officers, you'll get aggravated assault and a host of other crimes.
That doesn't even make sense.
(a) Your rights are unconnected to registering. You may also be confusing registering with licensing, but that's typical of many anti-reg posters here lately.
(b) Your lawyer should represent you in the legal system in Marvel the same way they do here. Or, are you suggesting that it's not acceptable that in the real-world, habeas claims for prisoners in inaccessible prisons are filed by their lawyers? Did you not read any of the extensive discussion up to this point?
No, you just ignore them when they're posted:
1) Immediately after fleeing SHIELD (which was legal, because at that point he hadn't committed a crime and SHIELD had acted improperly), contact either (a) a lawyer, (b) the ACLU, (c) any of a billion news organizations.
2) If you fear arrest, remain on the lamb while you pursue option 1), but you will then have to face the consequences of evading arrest, etc. when you're caught.
3) Do like Martin Luther King, Jr. and all his brave companions during the Civil Rights Movement and face the law. Be imprisoned, and fight your case in court and in the hearts and minds of the American people. Recognize that the civil process not only doesn't include changing the law with your fists, but also in fact explicitly disavows that sort of "might makes right" behavior.