Libertarianism

ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
edited March 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
In the hopes that we can get the 2008 election thread back on track:
Hey, did I say I was a Republican? I think not. I'm a Libertarian. I want the government out of my house, out of my pocket, out of my business. I will gladly pay taxes for road construction, military defense, and law enforcement.

If you want a retirement plan, try investing. Don't take money out of my paycheck because you can't spell 401k. If you want health insurance, there are a number of private firms willing to sell you some and if the government would stop paying healthcare providers whatever they ask for, the price of those services would drop due to natural market forces. America is the most charitable nation in the world. If the government would let go of my wallet long enough for me to make a donation, I'd give a lot more to the truly disadvantaged than the overhead ridden welfare system takes out of each of our bank accounts every day.

Thanatos on
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Posts

  • 3lwap03lwap0 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The only real problem with the Libertarian party is the company it keeps. You've got your moderates who tolerate some form of government intrusion, to your anarchists who want a return to the dog-eat-dog wild west. Developing a political consensus and then running a platform based with those kinds of constituents must be hell.

    3lwap0 on
  • LondonBridgeLondonBridge __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2007
    Someone said 'Libertarians are Republicans who like to smoke weed.' I know plenty in my area but they vote Republican most of the time.

    LondonBridge on
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Is there any evidence that America is the most charitable nation per person? not just because it's so massive.

    Any way I feel that whilst the welfare systems could use some improvement I think their necessary to protect people who can't make a wage for any myriad of possible reasons. Same for the health services. In fact I feel their should be a system similar to the UK, with both effectively completely free for those who choose to use it but with private insurance for those who can afford it.

    As a side note I’ve found pretty much every self declaring libertarian to be a right cunt, who thinks the economy will become perfect looking after all and magically fix every problem facing the world.

    Leitner on
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2007
    3lwap0 wrote: »
    The only real problem with the Libertarian party is the company it keeps. You've got your moderates who tolerate some form of government intrusion, to your anarchists who want a return to the dog-eat-dog wild west. Developing a political consensus and then running a platform based with those kinds of constituents must be hell.

    Yeah, you get the guy who advocates privatizing the fire department, and everyone dismisses the party as a bunch of loons.

    Doc on
  • StephenB.2006StephenB.2006 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yeah, that's long been the Libs' cross to bear.

    Also, get the thread back on track because nobody would ever vote for a Lib candidate? m i rite?

    Even in D&D it's always just Red vs Blue. If it's not a Republican or a Democrat, nobody cares.

    StephenB.2006 on
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  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    SC wrote: »
    Is there any evidence that America is the most charitable nation per person? not just because it's so massive.

    I'm having trouble finding actual statistics, but I'm pretty sure Americans are generally profligate philanthropists.

    Æthelred on
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  • 3lwap03lwap0 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The Libertarian platform is simple. The party believes that any government solution to any problem simply doesn't work.

    This is fine and well until a Cat 5 hurricane smashes your small town to bits, and no one can help you. People don't want to pay income tax, or deal with The Man, but when disaster befalls you, that tune can change pretty darn fast. It's the entire paradox of the party, and that's why it will never be a serious third party candidate. You can stump speech all day about the evils of the government, and income tax, hit all the high notes - but when you explain that you don't need the government when you lose your job, nature destroys your house, or some other ill wind blows your way- folks start to doubt the credibility of the party and platform.

    3lwap0 on
  • StephenB.2006StephenB.2006 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I'll see if I can dig something up. I'm a bit busy at the moment (hence short posts) but it is generally accepted that Americans give a ton to charity.

    StephenB.2006 on
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  • StephenB.2006StephenB.2006 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Essentially Libertarian moderates are okay with some taxes, with some government regulation of markets, the more necessary things. Such folks, myself included, want to see the government's size and role reduced.

    Then you've got the pot smoking, angry-at-speed-limits, anarchist wannabes.

    StephenB.2006 on
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  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    2004 for UK: "As a nation we give less than 1% of GDP to charity."

    2003 for US: 2.2% GDP.


    Americans are let down by their government however.

    Æthelred on
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  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2007
    Æthelred wrote: »
    SC wrote: »
    Is there any evidence that America is the most charitable nation per person? not just because it's so massive.

    I'm having trouble finding actual statistics, but I'm pretty sure Americans are generally profligate philanthropists.

    http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2005&m=February&x=200502181639511CJsamohT5.593508e-02

    http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18404/article_detail.asp

    Shinto on
  • Target PracticeTarget Practice Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Doc wrote: »
    3lwap0 wrote: »
    The only real problem with the Libertarian party is the company it keeps. You've got your moderates who tolerate some form of government intrusion, to your anarchists who want a return to the dog-eat-dog wild west. Developing a political consensus and then running a platform based with those kinds of constituents must be hell.

    Yeah, you get the guy who advocates privatizing the fire department, and everyone dismisses the party as a bunch of loons.
    At least some of the fire departments around here are privately-run.

    I remember there being a big scandal about it because a fire truck for Queen Creek has to come all the way from Scottsdale (30 or so miles away).

    Target Practice on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The problem I have with so many libertarians is that they hold the importance of nigh-unfettered capitalism and massive privatization way the hell above the importance of civil liberties.

    Loren Michael on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The problem I have with so many libertarians is that they hold the importance of nigh-unfettered capitalism and massive privatization way the hell above the importance of civil liberties.

    Most libertarians I've met don't really give a shit about civil liberties like gay marriage and other stuff.

    Couscous on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The problem I have with so many libertarians is that they hold the importance of nigh-unfettered capitalism and massive privatization way the hell above the importance of civil liberties.

    Or human rights

    Sentry on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    The problem I have with so many libertarians is that they hold the importance of nigh-unfettered capitalism and massive privatization way the hell above the importance of civil liberties.

    Or human rights

    Or human rights. Thank you.

    Loren Michael on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    The problem I have with so many libertarians is that they hold the importance of nigh-unfettered capitalism and massive privatization way the hell above the importance of civil liberties.

    Most libertarians I've met don't really give a shit about civil liberties like gay marriage and other stuff.

    That's pretty much a necessity of being a libertarian. They probably called themselves libertarians because they thought it was the cool thing to do.

    Loren Michael on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Aren't a lot of them usually isolationist?

    Couscous on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Aren't a lot of them usually isolationist?

    Elaborate?

    Loren Michael on
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  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Aren't a lot of them usually isolationist?

    Elaborate?

    If libertarians want the government to intervene as little as possible in individual's lives, it'd be pretty strange for them to want an active government overseas.

    Æthelred on
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  • MVMosinMVMosin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2007
    Isolationist, as in, thinking the country should mind its own business and stop feeling the need to put its ass where its mouth is every time someone disagrees.

    MVMosin on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    MVMosin wrote: »
    Isolationist, as in, thinking the country should mind its own business and stop feeling the need to put its ass where its mouth is every time someone disagrees.

    Yeah, who are we to interfere in Darfur!

    Couscous on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Æthelred wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Aren't a lot of them usually isolationist?

    Elaborate?

    If libertarians want the government to intervene as little as possible in individual's lives, it'd be pretty strange for them to want an active government overseas.

    I think that's largely accurate, But I suspect they generally want the government to intervene where national security is concerned.

    Similarly, I wouldn't put it past a lot of them to have motivations rooted in enlightened self-interest for an active foreign policy.

    Loren Michael on
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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Aren't a lot of them usually isolationist?

    Elaborate?

    If libertarians want the government to intervene as little as possible in individual's lives, it'd be pretty strange for them to want an active government overseas.

    I think that's largely accurate, But I suspect they generally want the government to intervene where national security is concerned.

    Similarly, I wouldn't put it past a lot of them to have motivations rooted in enlightened self-interest for an active foreign policy.

    And that is why, while the supposed ideas of Libertarianism may appeal to me, I could never get behind a libertarian party. Every candidate I've seen or every platform I've heard has seemed to reek of self-interest.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Aren't a lot of them usually isolationist?

    Elaborate?

    If libertarians want the government to intervene as little as possible in individual's lives, it'd be pretty strange for them to want an active government overseas.

    I think that's largely accurate, But I suspect they generally want the government to intervene where national security is concerned.

    Similarly, I wouldn't put it past a lot of them to have motivations rooted in enlightened self-interest for an active foreign policy.

    And that is why, while the supposed ideas of Libertarianism may appeal to me, I could never get behind a libertarian party. Every candidate I've seen or every platform I've heard has seemed to reek of self-interest.

    It may be too big for this thread alone, but what's intrinsically wrong with enlightened self-interest? It can (and does) lead to views such as needing to increase stability and freedom and wealth abroad so that we are safer and richer at home.

    Loren Michael on
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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    There's nothing wrong with self-interest per se... but I'm opposed to a government that doesn't look after the well-being of its citizens. I mean, to me that should be one of the primary purposes of government.

    But then, I'm a lousy liberal...


    Edit: Supabeast's post below also reminded me that it seems Libertarians are focused on not paying taxes at the expense of everyone else.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    Aren't a lot of them usually isolationist?

    Elaborate?

    If libertarians want the government to intervene as little as possible in individual's lives, it'd be pretty strange for them to want an active government overseas.

    I think that's largely accurate, But I suspect they generally want the government to intervene where national security is concerned.

    Similarly, I wouldn't put it past a lot of them to have motivations rooted in enlightened self-interest for an active foreign policy.

    And that is why, while the supposed ideas of Libertarianism may appeal to me, I could never get behind a libertarian party. Every candidate I've seen or every platform I've heard has seemed to reek of self-interest.

    It may be too big for this thread alone, but what's intrinsically wrong with enlightened self-interest? It can (and does) lead to views such as needing to increase stability and freedom and wealth abroad so that we are safer and richer at home.
    Usually it just leads to the view that you should invade everybody else.

    Couscous on
  • supabeastsupabeast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote:
    Most libertarians I've met don't really give a shit about civil liberties like gay marriage and other stuff.

    They're actually getting better about that. The Cato institute got the ball rolling by opposing the anti-gay constitutional amendments, and I'm hoping that it catches on.

    I'm in the same boat as a lot of you: small government is good, capitalism is good, handouts just to make sure that stupid/lazy/unlucky people don't have to work for a living are bad. I've given a lot of thought to supporting the Libertarian party, but it always comes back to the same problem: Libertarians candidates tend to be the loons who want to completely abolish public schools, privatize the fire departments, and so on.

    Most libertarians are still what Ayn Rand called the “hippies of the right,” trying to establish anarchy by acting conservative. Too often they seem to be a bunch of scummy tax cheats who want a government that's limited to only providing the services that they can take financial advantage of.

    Personally, I'd be much happier seeing the remaining good Republicans split off into a party that picks up on the good elements of Goldwater conservatism, but ditches the racism, the theocracy, and the corporate corruption. If George Will were a politician, I'd be raising funds to build him a soapbox.

    On the upside, this is where Barack Obama seems to be leaning: a humane government that respects civil liberties and individuals without expanding the welfare state. Now if only he wanted to diminish the welfare state!

    supabeast on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I don't know about that. I suspect that pursuing a genuinely enlightened self-interested policy would lead to making as few enemies as possible.

    Loren Michael on
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  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    MVMosin wrote: »
    Isolationist, as in, thinking the country should mind its own business and stop feeling the need to put its ass where its mouth is every time someone disagrees.

    Yeah, who are we to interfere in Darfur!
    The idea is that most of the time we make things worse with "humanitarian interference".

    Anyway, I'm with libertarianism as long as it's pragmatic. For example, I like the idea of that the less power government has the less it will abuse power. I don't like the idea of schools/medical insurance being privatized. Some things aren't power, they're just responsibilities. Government is stupid but they are much more accountable than the private market as long as they're on a tight leash. Both government and companies are more of a reflection of the people they are controlled by than the people they serve.

    Hoz on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hoz wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    MVMosin wrote: »
    Isolationist, as in, thinking the country should mind its own business and stop feeling the need to put its ass where its mouth is every time someone disagrees.

    Yeah, who are we to interfere in Darfur!
    The idea is that most of the time we make things worse with "humanitarian interference".

    Anyway, I'm with libertarianism as long as it's pragmatic. For example, I like the idea of that the less power government has the less it will abuse power. I don't like the idea of schools/medical insurance being privatized. Some things aren't power, they're just responsibilities. Government is stupid but they are much more accountable than the private market as long as they're on a tight leash. Both government and companies are more of a reflection of the people they are controlled by than the people they serve.

    How exactly does one go about making genocide worse? Is there like, a Super Genocide?

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    No, but there is a coming in after the genocide is at its peak and completely fucking over the country's future.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

    Hoz on
  • supabeastsupabeast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hoz wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    MVMosin wrote: »
    Isolationist, as in, thinking the country should mind its own business and stop feeling the need to put its ass where its mouth is every time someone disagrees.

    Yeah, who are we to interfere in Darfur!
    The idea is that most of the time we make things worse with "humanitarian interference".

    Anyway, I'm with libertarianism as long as it's pragmatic. For example, I like the idea of that the less power government has the less it will abuse power. I don't like the idea of schools/medical insurance being privatized. Some things aren't power, they're just responsibilities. Government is stupid but they are much more accountable than the private market as long as they're on a tight leash. Both government and companies are more of a reflection of the people they are controlled by than the people they serve.

    Krauthammer has made that point a few times lately when discussing the Walter Reed mess. Privatization works for a lot of things, but sometimes Congressional oversight and government bureaucracy is actually a lesser evil.

    I'm a big opponent of state intervention in the medical system, tho. As I see it all the government regulation seems to do is create more hoops and paperwork for doctors to deal with, and the high prices set for stuff simply because Medicare is willing to pay for it is pretty scandalous. I'll admit that some countries seem to pull it off, but I don't see that happening here.

    supabeast on
  • MVMosinMVMosin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    titmouse wrote: »
    MVMosin wrote: »
    Isolationist, as in, thinking the country should mind its own business and stop feeling the need to put its ass where its mouth is every time someone disagrees.

    Yeah, who are we to interfere in Darfur!
    The idea is that most of the time we make things worse with "humanitarian interference".

    Anyway, I'm with libertarianism as long as it's pragmatic. For example, I like the idea of that the less power government has the less it will abuse power. I don't like the idea of schools/medical insurance being privatized. Some things aren't power, they're just responsibilities. Government is stupid but they are much more accountable than the private market as long as they're on a tight leash. Both government and companies are more of a reflection of the people they are controlled by than the people they serve.

    How exactly does one go about making genocide worse? Is there like, a Super Genocide?


    Well, there was interference with Saudi Arabia regarding terrorism, and you know what? That's one of the big reasons Osama Bin Laden has every yankee doodle shmuck on his hitlist.

    Not that I'm an isolationist, mind you, just defending for the sake of debate.

    MVMosin on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hoz wrote: »
    No, but there is a coming in after the genocide is at its peak and completely fucking over the country's future.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

    I don't see anything about genocide before the Americans got involved.

    Couscous on
  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    There wasn't an intentional genocide but the Cuban people were put into concentration camps where the Spanish couldn't feed them or provide them sanitation (leading to rampant disease). And that was one of the main reasons why America got involved.

    Hoz on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hoz wrote: »
    There wasn't an intentional genocide but the Cuban people were put into concentration camps where the Spanish couldn't feed them or provide them sanitation (leading to rampant disease). And that was one of the main reasons why America got involved.

    That isn't genocide. You don't accidentally commit genocide.

    Couscous on
  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    The Libertarians are big on individual rights, and seem to harp on about how the government is opressing the rights of the individual. Oddly though they never seem to take the next mental step and think about what say, big companys or churches could do if the government was as minimalist as they propose. This refers to the wackier brand of Libertarian, the guy in the OP sounded sane enough.

    bezerk bob on
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  • supabeastsupabeast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    b3z3rk_b0b wrote: »
    The Libertarians are big on individual rights, and seem to harp on about how the government is opressing the rights of the individual. Oddly though they never seem to take the next mental step and think about what say, big companys or churches could do if the government was as minimalist as they propose. This refers to the wackier brand of Libertarian, the guy in the OP sounded sane enough.

    Unfortunately most of the ones that run for office fall into the wackier category. Probably because the sane ones know that they haven't got a chance in hell of winning.

    supabeast on
  • StephenB.2006StephenB.2006 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    On gay marriage:

    The Libertarian party line on marriage is that it's not the government's business. Marriage is between you, your spouse, and your church as it is an inherently religious institution. You can, through legal process, name anyone you want on your insurance, in your last will and testament, or in a living will and as such, marriage is not necessary for these things. You can also joint file a tax return regardless of married status. As such, the Libertarian party would rather the government not recognize marriage at all. Then, if homosexuals want to get married, they can because no law would exist to prevent it.

    On isolationism, self interest:

    The Libertarian party line on foreign policy is blurry at best. Some Libertarians, such as myself, prefer as few binding documents as possible. This is because binding the nation legally reduces it sovereignty. Self interest is good.

    On businesses:

    Business is good. If businesses abuse consumers, consumers will find a substitute for that business's product or service. There is a substitute for everything. Everything. This is a fundamental rule of economics. As for enforcing common sense envrionmental laws, this is one of the things that Libertarians can disagree on. I'm in favor of government protecting people from externalities but others say that as all resources are privately owned, an abusive company will simply fail due to market forces as people avoid doing business with such a company.

    StephenB.2006 on
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