Trying to wean myself off dairy and grains.

superhappypandasuperhappypanda Zug Island Sport FishingSeattleRegistered User regular
Hey all,

I'm trying to get myself off of some certain foods, and have been having a tough time making the transition. I'm trying to cut back on things like grains and dairy. I've gotten a lot better with my diet by replacing them with more fruits, vegetables, lean meats and eating healthier carbs when I do (i.e. yams and wild rice) and do a pretty good job staying away from ice cream and flavored yogurts (basically anything with added sugar). I want to try and eliminate oatmeal, wheat bread, milk and cheese entirely but am having a tough time cutting it out, especially after a workout I tend to crave a glass of chocolate milk and late at night and on the weekends I sometimes get a craving for a burger and fries. I also get pretty lethargic and cranky if I go an entire day without grains of any kind.

I was wondering if anyone on here has made a transition off this stuff and how they did it.

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  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Do you have a medical reason for wanting to cut out all grain? There's a good reason that you get cranky and lethargic when you don't have any at all. Dairy is easier, except for cheese - replacing milk with Soy is easy (but not cheap).

  • superhappypandasuperhappypanda Zug Island Sport Fishing SeattleRegistered User regular
    No medical reason. I've been reading up on some of this Paleo/Primal stuff and while I don't buy all of it, some of it does make sense.

    Also, no soy, no artificial sweeteners or other replacement type products like veggie meats or anything like that.

  • InkSplatInkSplat 100%ed Bad Rats. Registered User regular
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Do you have a medical reason for wanting to cut out all grain? There's a good reason that you get cranky and lethargic when you don't have any at all. Dairy is easier, except for cheese - replacing milk with Soy is easy (but not cheap).

    And there's also a reason you feel fantastic after you're off them for a couple days. Grains are a recent addition to the human diet, and are in no way required.
    Hey all,

    I'm trying to get myself off of some certain foods, and have been having a tough time making the transition. I'm trying to cut back on things like grains and dairy. I've gotten a lot better with my diet by replacing them with more fruits, vegetables, lean meats and eating healthier carbs when I do (i.e. yams and wild rice) and do a pretty good job staying away from ice cream and flavored yogurts (basically anything with added sugar). I want to try and eliminate oatmeal, wheat bread, milk and cheese entirely but am having a tough time cutting it out, especially after a workout I tend to crave a glass of chocolate milk and late at night and on the weekends I sometimes get a craving for a burger and fries. I also get pretty lethargic and cranky if I go an entire day without grains of any kind.

    I was wondering if anyone on here has made a transition off this stuff and how they did it.

    Pause the workout for a couple days, would be my first suggestion. Don't do lean meat to the exclusion of fatty meat, because if you're lowering carbs, you need fat. But, really, if you want to manage it, I'd suggest cold turkey. If you make sure you get carbs from other sources (sweet potatoes are fantastic for this) then you won't suffer too terribly from a carb flu or anything.

    One thing to check out might be Whole 30, if you really want to accomplish it. Its basically a 30-day clean diet, and for some people, having that goal can really help. Just "trying to cut it out" can leave a lot of mental leeway to cheat.

    Another thing to remember is that for most people, butter is fine. And also delicious. (Kerry Gold is amazing, if you've got a couple extra dollars to spend. Organic, grassfed, and there is an absolute difference in taste. I tested it on my wife, by giving her kerry gold on her waffles for a few days, and then giving her ordinary butter, and she immediately mentioned that something was off.)

    I'd recommend keeping an eye out in the paper for anyplace having a sale on steaks. A nice 1lb steak cooked up with salt and pepper, with sweet potato on the side, can pretty much banish any sort of craving you thought you had. :P

    Pretty much, you just need to get through a few days, and the cravings will go away. But until you're willing to take the plunge, it'll be tough going, because grains are a lot like cigarettes.

    Origin for Dragon Age: Inquisition Shenanigans: Inksplat776
  • s_86s_86 Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    ---

    s_86 on
  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington he.him.his History-loving pal!Registered User regular
    I do almond milk instead of soy milk, and I kind of dig it. Silk makes a good unsweetened version.

    I also don't do 7 days a week of avoiding grains and sugar, I give myself a cheat day. So if I'm really wanting chocolate milk (which is basically 24/7), I can tell myself that Saturday will be here soon enough, and I can order a big pizza, extra cheese, thick crust, and wash that down with a bunch of chocolate milk.

    Having that built in cheat day helps me keep honest the rest of the week.

    Except today, because Halloween.

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  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    So this thread will remain okay as long as people stick to giving the exact advice asked for and are not trying to push their way of life/opinions/fad diets on others, as per my last post in the LAST fucking thread that talked about this.

    That means no "but you need grain asshole" or "grain is poisonous toxic waste that will kill you". No one cares what you think. Just give the advice he's asking for, or steer clear.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    There is also some newer research coming out that shows chocolate milk after a work out may be one of the best after-work-out things you can do, so you may not want to cut dairy out of your life entirely. Also, your body will more than likely become lactose intolerant when it's cut out of the diet entirely so be sure you want it gone from your diet because it's not something that can be undone easily.

    As for advise to help stop eating these 2 food groups, the hardest and ultimately easiest method for me is to just use sheer willpower to stop. If you really don't want to do something, then just don't do it. If you can't do that, then try replacing the items with something else that is equally as easy or easier to make and/or get a hold of. The less effort used to replace something, the more likely it is to succeed in my experience

  • superhappypandasuperhappypanda Zug Island Sport Fishing SeattleRegistered User regular
    @Veevee, that's kind of the whole thing. I 'do' want to cut out the grains and at least a large portion of the dairy but the cravings that I get for these things are a pain. I can't compare it to cigarettes because I'm not addicted to them, but I become pretty ornery if I stop eating grains and dairy (to a lesser extent than grains).

    Also, @ceres. Thanks, that's one of the reasons I didn't mention the Paleo/Primal thing earlier in the post, I know some people debate this topic as hotly as religion and politics and that's NOT what I'm looking for here.

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited November 2012
    What about just dropping grains, let those cravings run it's course, then dropping dairy once the grain cravings subside (Or the other way around if that's easier). The only thing harder than kicking one habit is trying to kick two at the same time.

    Veevee on
  • KarrmerKarrmer Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    The first 3 or so days of going without grains is pretty rough. i tend to get some intense headaches and, yea, that cranky feeling. It isnt much different than kicking any bad habit, like smoking etc. Your body is used to it and isn't happy when it is gone.

    Go hard and completely avoid them and in 4 days or so, maybe a week, you'll feel amazing. If you don't after a week or two maybe rethink things but everyone I've met hates their life on day 2 and loves it on day 10. There really isn't a better option besides "suck it up for a few days and don't give in."

    Edit: and at risk of making Ceres mad, what was said by Veevee may be true - dairy might not be all that bad in moderation, but that is up to you. Let your body decide. Spend a couple weeks without grains and see how you feel, then throw out the dairy.

    Karrmer on
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    For post-workout buy some protein powder (you said no soy, so whey protein or spirulina). A scoop or 2 plus frozen berries, mango and banana, and enough water to make it liquidy to your liking.

    The late night cravings for hamburgers and fries (for me it's pizza and beer) are something you're going to have to deal with through changing how you eat and discipline. If you don't cave it's easier to resist. Eat 2/3rds of your dinner for dinner, reserving the rest for a late snack. Or stock up on non grain/dairy snacks. Only ones I know of are basically trail mix ingredients (nuts, seeds and dried fruit) or jerky.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Also drink a lot of water. Whatever your drinking, it's likely not enough for a diet change. Add a couple glasses of water.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Karrmer wrote: »
    Edit: and at risk of making Ceres mad, what was said by Veevee may be true - dairy might not be all that bad in moderation, but that is up to you. Let your body decide. Spend a couple weeks without grains and see how you feel, then throw out the dairy.

    This will not make me mad because it is phrased as a suggestion or a possibility and also nicely.

    My wrath is easy to incur, but this didn't do it.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • jefe414jefe414 "My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter" Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered User regular
    Veevee wrote: »
    What about just dropping grains, let those cravings run it's course, then dropping dairy once the grain cravings subside (Or the other way around if that's easier). The only thing harder than kicking one habit is trying to kick two at the same time.

    I'm thirding this suggestion. Your plan is to cut both out. Start with one, give it time, then remove the other.
    Good luck to you.

    Xbox Live: Jefe414
  • superhappypandasuperhappypanda Zug Island Sport Fishing SeattleRegistered User regular
    Thanks for the advice all, I'm going to wait until after Thanksgiving and then cut out the grains for a week cold turkey and then see about the dairy. Not really looking forward to the 'detox' period but if what @Karrmer said holds, then the payoff will be worth it.

    What kinds of things do you folks tend to keep stocked in the fridge to keep you away from going back to the grains and if you're eating out with friends, what do you usually look for on the menu that's good to eat and what kinds of pitfalls might somebody not really notice but wind up containing grains or flour?

  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    When I was doing a more Paleo-style I stocked up on lots of dried fruit, nuts and seeds (these store relatively well), and for fresh food carrots, celery, sugar snap peas, and ingredients for hummus (garbanzo beans, tahini, lemon, and garlic). I also tried out amaranth, quinoa, buckwheat, millet, and upped my rice intake, but I didn't really feel these provided what I was missing when cutting gluten initially.

    Any soup or dish that has been thickened (curries, sauces, stews, soups) may've been thickened with flour or a roux (which usually has flour, though I've made roux with rice/arrowroot flour). Anything breaded probably has gluten in the breading. Deep fried stuff might've had a flour dredge, or it might be cornstarch (which is OK).

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Also I've tried the paleo diet for a few weeks and I've noticed no real difference in it. I just felt like shit as I stopped eating calories from bread. Then it goes away. But goodness christ if you have a lot of bread eaters around you it's going to be difficult to stay off it.

    Personally I ignored the whole "carb" rule (atkins??) and just avoided bread/cereal in general. Things that had carbs like fruit and nuts I went crazy with. Seemed to be okay. Still lost weight because I was avoiding stuff that was premade and essentially sugar infused (like ceres mentioned in the last thread, you'd be surprised if you're not careful and examining labels, what exactly has HFCS floating all over/in it).

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • superhappypandasuperhappypanda Zug Island Sport Fishing SeattleRegistered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Also I've tried the paleo diet for a few weeks and I've noticed no real difference in it. I just felt like shit as I stopped eating calories from bread. Then it goes away. But goodness christ if you have a lot of bread eaters around you it's going to be difficult to stay off it.

    Personally I ignored the whole "carb" rule (atkins??) and just avoided bread/cereal in general. Things that had carbs like fruit and nuts I went crazy with. Seemed to be okay. Still lost weight because I was avoiding stuff that was premade and essentially sugar infused (like ceres mentioned in the last thread, you'd be surprised if you're not careful and examining labels, what exactly has HFCS floating all over/in it).

    Yeah, I hear you on the HFCS. I've already eliminated almost all of that from my diet and I regularly scan the labels when I'm at the grocery store and avoid it if at all possible. Eating out at restaurants is a little more difficult.

  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Most people I know who eat like this incorporate a lot of nuts and their derivatives.

    One blog that may help:
    http://nomnompaleo.com/

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Restaurants are tough for ANY diet, pretty much no matter what it is, and ditto for hanging out with friends. You need to willpower to keep making good choices even if you really fucking want that french toast or whatever, no matter how good it looks or how many of your friends are eating it.

    It's kind of like having a girlfriend.. even if the hottest girl ever walks by and flirts with you, you still make a choice. Minus the friends all eating her part. That might be a turnoff.

    I think I kind of lost the metaphor a bit here, but you probably get the idea.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    EsseeTehSpectreDhalphir
  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington he.him.his History-loving pal!Registered User regular
    I usually can do okay at most Mexican restaurants. Just get meat, vegetables, beans, and keep away from the tortillas (those delicious, delicious tortillas...)

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  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I usually can do okay at most Mexican restaurants. Just get meat, vegetables, beans, and keep away from the tortillas (those delicious, delicious tortillas...)

    If his goal is to significantly reduce carbs, beans are pretty high in them.

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  • superhappypandasuperhappypanda Zug Island Sport Fishing SeattleRegistered User regular
    Yup, any kind of legumes are getting cut too. Beans, peanuts, etc.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    Restaurants are tough for ANY diet, pretty much no matter what it is, and ditto for hanging out with friends. You need to willpower to keep making good choices even if you really fucking want that french toast or whatever, no matter how good it looks or how many of your friends are eating it.

    It's kind of like having a girlfriend.. even if the hottest girl ever walks by and flirts with you, you still make a choice. Minus the friends all eating her part. That might be a turnoff.

    I think I kind of lost the metaphor a bit here, but you probably get the idea.

    I want to hear what you think about buffets.

    OP, are you eliminating gluten, carbs or something else when you say "grains?" Lots of discussion including rice, which is a grain.

    What is this I don't even.
  • superhappypandasuperhappypanda Zug Island Sport Fishing SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2012
    I hesitate to use the word 'carbs' because that would include just about everything edible since nearly everything contains carbs of some sort. But basically refined sugars, grains, legumes, rice and potatoes with the exception of yams and wild rice (in limited moderation). 'Carbs' that I'd allow would be what naturally occurs in fruits and vegetables and with very limited moderation, honey and maple syrup (100% natural).

    Initially though, the yams, wild rice, honey and maple syrup would be cut out for a bit to see how I feel without them, then maybe adding them back in if I want.

    superhappypanda on
  • KarrmerKarrmer Registered User regular
    Thanks for the advice all, I'm going to wait until after Thanksgiving and then cut out the grains for a week cold turkey and then see about the dairy. Not really looking forward to the 'detox' period but if what @Karrmer said holds, then the payoff will be worth it.

    What kinds of things do you folks tend to keep stocked in the fridge to keep you away from going back to the grains and if you're eating out with friends, what do you usually look for on the menu that's good to eat and what kinds of pitfalls might somebody not really notice but wind up containing grains or flour?

    For the first week or two when you're really craving the grains etc (which will *usually* go away) I generally suggest things that are similar but... Not. So they taste good and give you that feeling of not depriving yourself but your body is still abstaining from the food you're trying to avoid.

    Things like using pork rinds as chips and dipping them in home-made chili (meat, spices, sometimes I toss in some chorizo or whatever and hot sauce). It's like delicious nachos - definitely not low calorie, but these things help get over that first hump. Then the cravings and excessive appetite go away and you settle into a norm.

    Steak, fish, eggs, bacon, ribs, ground beef, chili, chicken, turkey, crab legs, lobster - all with various vegetables like grilled asparagus, broccoli, brussel sprouts, spinach/salads etc are pretty staple foods I eat on a regular basis. Vegetables are, imo, one of the main keys to making this work. I personally hated all vegetables with a passion prior to making a dietary change and now I can genuinely say that the greens my girlfriends mother makes are the best things ever. Just collard greens cooked with a ham hock, bacon, and who knows what delicious spices.

    Restaurants suck. I usually get an omelette if it is breakfast or some meat thing if it is not. Many places now have lettuce wrapped burger type things. I also try to intentionally go to places like mongolian/korean/brazilian BBQ where I can eat lots of meat and veggies.

    This is really long but I hope it helped some. Any other questions you can PM me.

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    Restaurants are tough for ANY diet, pretty much no matter what it is, and ditto for hanging out with friends. You need to willpower to keep making good choices even if you really fucking want that french toast or whatever, no matter how good it looks or how many of your friends are eating it.

    It's kind of like having a girlfriend.. even if the hottest girl ever walks by and flirts with you, you still make a choice. Minus the friends all eating her part. That might be a turnoff.

    I think I kind of lost the metaphor a bit here, but you probably get the idea.

    Playing off this, allowing yourself a cheat day is a good idea too. Like a friday pizza night or something.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    I'm no dietary expert, but I think it's basically impossible to get the balance of nutrients you need solely from meat+veg. I think you need some nut or bean product in there unless you want to be eating eggs 24/7

  • LadyDustBunnyLadyDustBunny Registered User regular
    <-- mostly paleo

    I've exhausted the "diet" stuff on this site, so I'll just offer some advice of "Don't worry if you're not perfect with it 24/7." I used to get all upset if I had a slip up and ate something made with wheat or some processed sugar. Just acknowledge the slip up, remind yourself of why you want this lifestyle (maybe visit some supporting sites), and move on. :)

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  • InkSplatInkSplat 100%ed Bad Rats. Registered User regular
    schuss wrote: »
    I'm no dietary expert, but I think it's basically impossible to get the balance of nutrients you need solely from meat+veg. I think you need some nut or bean product in there unless you want to be eating eggs 24/7

    What do you think legumes and grains have, exactly, that is so magical it doesn't show up in animals and vegetables?

    Origin for Dragon Age: Inquisition Shenanigans: Inksplat776
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    schuss wrote: »
    I'm no dietary expert, but I think it's basically impossible to get the balance of nutrients you need solely from meat+veg. I think you need some nut or bean product in there unless you want to be eating eggs 24/7

    You should be fine sans nuts.

    I've never had a problem before. Nuts are pretty good snacks though.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    @Insplat @Schuss

    NO. Wrong. Bad.

    Advice asked for or go away.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Rice and corn are both grains, however they do not have gluten. One might avoid them if seeking to eliminate easy carbs, but you can still eat them if trying to deal with gluten sensitivity. Let's not conflate low carb with gluten-free because these aren't the same diets.

    Edit: The ban on soy means you are likely not going to be able to eat a lot of prepackaged or fast food. There are a tremendous amount of soy-derived products that go into processed food in the US. I don't see much value in removing soy if you're already restricting your diet from dairy and gluten, but thought you ought to know if you are avoiding soybeans. As a side note, most soy sauce in the US is not true soy sauce. True soy sauce is just soy beans and maybe salt. A lot of cheaper soy sauce is derived from fermented vegetable protein (often wheat) and will likely have gluten.

    Djeet on
  • juggerbotjuggerbot Registered User regular
    For specific cravings, there are a few charts floating around the web which suggest substitutions for cravings. For example, if you have a craving for X, your body is really wanting Y, which can be satisfied by eating A, B, or C. I've never used them myself, and I don't know if there is a paleo-specific one, but you can find a few with a Google image search for "if you crave this eat that".

  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    InkSplat wrote: »
    schuss wrote: »
    I'm no dietary expert, but I think it's basically impossible to get the balance of nutrients you need solely from meat+veg. I think you need some nut or bean product in there unless you want to be eating eggs 24/7

    What do you think legumes and grains have, exactly, that is so magical it doesn't show up in animals and vegetables?

    Ceres & Others, my point was mainly one of palatability and affordability. Can you survive on just eggs and orange juice? Technically yes. Same goes for just surviving on meat and vegetables, but limiting yourself from involving bean products and nut products vastly decreases the scope of what you're able to buy and consume to get your "daily bread", and is not a decision to be taken lightly. From a pure cost perspective, a lot of meat is expensive, and it becomes hard to maintain a variety of meals over a long period when you don't have options like a bean salad for long storage time/easy prep when you're tired.
    The above was phrased incorrectly, and what I meant to say was that based on seasonality of produce, cost of meat/produce and pure ability/time for prep, it is incredibly hard to do it without beans or nuts.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Assume he's taken his own budget into account and is just asking for the advice that he's asking for, please. This is the last time I'm going to say it.

    I do agree that you should cut one thing at a time, though. Maybe make the beans/buts/legumes the third thing you cut.. like first the grains, then the dairy, then the beans. Make them their own category and do all of this gradually.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    Essee
  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington he.him.his History-loving pal!Registered User regular
    Okay, looks like my diet's a little different from the advice asked for, my bad!

    Cheat days are the best, it's really the only reason I've been able to stay on mine for as long as I have.

    I don't know what your lunch at work situation is, but what I've done is cook a basic stew at the start of the week - lean ground beef, peas, some tomato sauce, and I put kidney beans in. I'm sure you could put more vegetables in as a substitute for the beans. It's cheap, easy, and I always have lunch at work, which was always my least healthy meal.

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  • AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    I'm not sure whether it fits in with the paleo thing but have you considered replacing your normal milk with almond milk? On its own it's pretty rubbish but it is good when mixed with other stuff. It's basically just liquid almonds which I think would be allowed yeah?

    I've been cutting down on bread too, I'm surprised it makes you cranky and lethargic haha that's what I felt like those carbs did to me when I did eat them. What I've been doing is cutting bread in half so I just have a small slice with my food instead of a big one. Also I just stack on the vegetables to the point that I don't even realise there's no bread. You can get pretty creative with vegies (using them nstead of bread in the sandwhich/making "pasta" out of them).

    Good luck!

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  • oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    I also get pretty lethargic and cranky if I go an entire day without grains of any kind.

    I have not tried paleo or any analogs thereto, but I have gone on fairly strict diets that left me feeling like this. Caffeine between meals helps a lot. Also, how are often are you eating? You might try eating 5 or 6 times a day instead of 3 meals a day.

  • KarrmerKarrmer Registered User regular
    schuss wrote: »
    InkSplat wrote: »
    schuss wrote: »
    I'm no dietary expert, but I think it's basically impossible to get the balance of nutrients you need solely from meat+veg. I think you need some nut or bean product in there unless you want to be eating eggs 24/7

    What do you think legumes and grains have, exactly, that is so magical it doesn't show up in animals and vegetables?

    Ceres & Others, my point was mainly one of palatability and affordability. Can you survive on just eggs and orange juice? Technically yes. Same goes for just surviving on meat and vegetables, but limiting yourself from involving bean products and nut products vastly decreases the scope of what you're able to buy and consume to get your "daily bread", and is not a decision to be taken lightly. From a pure cost perspective, a lot of meat is expensive, and it becomes hard to maintain a variety of meals over a long period when you don't have options like a bean salad for long storage time/easy prep when you're tired.
    The above was phrased incorrectly, and what I meant to say was that based on seasonality of produce, cost of meat/produce and pure ability/time for prep, it is incredibly hard to do it without beans or nuts.

    Nuts are definitely primal and are a big part of the diet. I didn't see the OP ever mention that he was trying to cut out nuts unless I missed it, which I may have. Note that peanuts are not nuts, though, they're legumes.

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