I'm not sure where he's living but there's only two states (oregon and washington DoL) that have minimum wages above 8.75 an hour and only barely. I'd love to have a minimum wage that high. Don't get me wrong that's a terrible situation he's in.
Except as someone who lives in washington, minimum wage does not go very far due to a generally high cost of living.
I'm not sure where he's living but there's only two states (oregon and washington DoL) that have minimum wages above 8.75 an hour and only barely. I'd love to have a minimum wage that high. Don't get me wrong that's a terrible situation he's in.
Except as someone who lives in washington, minimum wage does not go very far due to a generally high cost of living.
I am pretty surprised this made it past the review for posting. Yes, there is always someone who has it worse, and that's a good viewpoint to have, but this was just written to antagonize the readers of Trenches.
This is my reaction, followed by "Where is the minimum wage $9.50/hr and where are testers making $10.50/hr"?
Washington state, where a lot of the trenches stories seem to come from (since a lot of the awful testing contractor jobs are for MS/Nintendo in Redmond)
El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our good and benevolent overlords for presenting this strip and going through the trouble of sifting through what must be an utter mess of illegible drivel and viagara spam to deliver to us actual stories from the industry that we can sympathize with, laugh at and discuss.
I think it's very topical to say that sometimes stuff slips through QA, and the best response is to clean it up and move on.
I really like this frame of the comic. Just very nice artwork.
As for the pilots... I'm kind of shocked that pilots would only make $17.50 an hour. I know his complaint is he makes less than that, but $17.50 / hour seems really low for a job that requires 100% travel time.
http://www.danreviewstheworld.com
Nintendo Network ID - PirateLuigi 3DS: 3136-6586-7691
G&T Grass Type Pokemon Gym Leader, In-Game Name: Dan
Note the comments about unions only really benefiting pilots with seniority. This is a very common problem with unions in many industries. Unionization is not a panacea, as much as many people in this and a number of previous Trenches discussion threads seem to think it is.
0
Options
El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
I don't think $17.50 an hour is unreasonable- I'm sure there are lots of perks (fly wherever you want for next to free etc), and it's a rewarding profession.
Obviously the problem is that the airline in question has gotten away with not paying its employees when they're mandated to be at work and performing duties, and that has all sorts of downstream impacts beyond just the lost pay (not qualifying for benefits, not being considered a full time employee for lots of other purposes etc).
Saying "you must be at work at 6, you must go through all of these critical safety procedures and be done by 8, and we'll start paying you at 8:30 when you turn the engine on", should not be legal anywhere, and shouldn't survive any sort of legal challenge.
+3
Options
The_SpaniardIt's never lupinesIrvine, CaliforniaRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
I was waiting for this thread to go up last night so that I could vent.
Man what a sanctimonious ass. Because I perceive my job to be worse than yours you aren't allowed to complain, especially when I come to your specifically designated complaint place to tell you as much. It's not whining when you're ASKED to vent. It's like going to a videogame forum and complaining that there is too much talk of videogames and then having an air of superiority while you say it. I feel bad for anybody who's ever had to work a terrible job or in terrible conditions, we can all relate and sympathize, that's kind of the reason of Trenches. But this guy really killed the good will he would have gotten with a respectful post that could have been something along the lines of, "I know how you guys feel, I have it rough too. Listen to my story, RESPECT."
Well I have a trenches story for you. At the height of the recession I lost a major game industry job. Out of desperation I worked something like an 80k a year game industry job for an entire year for free on the promise of being hired on with back-pay as soon as the company could afford it. Never made a dime, no actually I ended up spending a small amount of money. Balls in your court mister "I actually made some money" pilot guy.
I'd love to see what he has to say to all these posts. I wonder if he even reads these forums, probably too busy going to Chick-Fil-A and complaining that he doesn't like chicken sandwiches, then telling them his mother's chicken recipe is so much better.
I'm also a professional pilot and have been for about 7 years. The story may be slightly exagerated but it is basically correct at the crappiest spectrum of our profession. Here are the ways companies get away with paying new pilots basically nothing:
The first job most people get is flight instructing. 99% of all flight instructors are considered independant contractors (even when they shouldn't be by the IRS guidelines, it isn't enforced well.) So you can be paid whatever you've been agreed to. This was my first flying job, and I was paid $25 per billable hour. If you have a lot of students you can do well, if you have none you might starve.
The second job most new pilots get is either at a regional airline or a small freight operator (flying either checks, medical work or UPS freight usually.) Professional pilots working for an air carrier are considered exempt employees from any minimum wage or overtime considerations in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) -- see part 13(b) for the pilot exemption. Being a co-pilot at a regional airline (doing flights as United Express) in Denver flying the Dash-8 was my second flying job, I got paid $19-21 a flight hour, with a minimum of 72 hours a month (so even if I didn't fly I would still get 72*19 dollars.) I think I MAY have broke $20,000 on my W-2 that year, and that would have been my third year flying professionally. I did have medical insurance though for the first time. After a year and a half I was furloughed (laid off.)
My third job was flying for a small freight operator. I had full benefits but still only made about $26,000/year -- but I only worked about 4 hours a day (2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening.) I did this for about 3 years and by the time I left I was making slightly over forty grand.
My current job is for an air ambulance company. My schedule is very desirable (in my opinion) -- I work 7 days on and 7 days off. My salary with the occasional overtime day picked up is in the low to mid seventies, and most of the time while I am on work I play video games, read novels or nap (12 hour shift at a house at the airport waiting until someone needs our services.) Considering I only work a cumulative of a little over six months a year and a large portion of my on-duty time consists of sitting on my ass I think I have a pretty awesome job at this stage of my career and have no desire to try to hustle back in the airline gig.
If I had to guess, I would say that the Story Writer was just starting out -- although a couple things about the story sound suspicious. Non-diabetic people don't lose consciousness because they have low blood sugar, even if they hadn't eaten all day. Losing consciousness and flying is pretty bad combination. Also the tests required by the FAA to rule out diabetes aren't expensive -- I know this because of a experience I had with the FAA AeroMedical Division years ago. Every 6/12 months commercial pilots are required to renew our physicals with an FAA doctor (just a regular doctor who does FAA physicals on the side.) Part of the physical involves peeing into a cup to test for a variety of things -- I don't pee well on pressure so the morning of the physical I chugged a 20 ounce of Dr. Pepper in the Doctor's waiting room. When I peed, the urinalysis said I had glycosuria (sugar in the urine) and my medical was deferred. I had to go to my regular doctor and get a A1c test, which was like MAYBE $80? Sent it in and got my medical back.
Finally, the most suspicious thing is the Masters in Aviation Whatever. While they certainly do have these degrees, nobody cares about them. Even the pinnacle of Holy Grail of aviation jobs ala Southwest, Delta, UPS, FedEx where you could make $100k+ as a co-pilot and over $200 as a captain only require just a bachelors degree, and they don't care what it is in either. Basket weaving, or philosophy. I can't imagine anyone starting out going and getting a Masters in Aviation, unless it was a career-changer who already had a bachelors degree and got duped by some aviation college. If so, I don't want to pay your student loan payments you poor bastard!
I'm not saying there aren't some real terrible places to work as a pilot -- there is this carrier called Pacific Wings who does mostly Hawaii flying but also has some Essential Air Service runs in the states. I understand their co-pilots are paid upwards of $10 per flight hour, and they also have to act as gate agent and baggage handler!
if you tl;dr here is the short version: just starting out as a pilot sucks, but there are good jobs to be had after you pay your dues. Damn, I used to hate that phrase. In that way it may be like game testing!
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
I'm not surprised, but then, I've known about how shitty new pilots are treated for years. Not to cite him as an authority, but in either Dude Where's My Country or Stupid White Men (I can't remember which, but I was big into Moore back in college), he references a conversation he had with a rookie airliner pilot where it was revealed to him that back then, after expenses, they were making less than 7-11 clerks.
Then there's Chesley Sullenberger, who has been using his fame to be an activist for how poorly pilots are being treated these days by the airlines, in particular not getting enough sleep.
Even without that, though, given how they're basically trying to turn flying into bus service, taking out every luxury (outside of first class, of course) and scraping to retrofit planes to cram as many passengers into an individual flight as possible to make as much of a profit as they can...why would be people be surprised they're treating the pilots similarly?
But to the person who sent in the original rant, if you're reading this thread...have you not heard of solidarity?
And a "lol" at Khoo's twitter after that. Of course the conservative agrees with the pilot. That's exactly the attitude conservatives want us to have. Divide and conquer. Get us to bitch about anyone slightly better off than us and they will happily boot them down to our level as long as we don't notice that they are earning a greater share of the total wealth than they have since feudalism with a lower percentage tax rate than us, and start asking for real change.
And a "lol" at Khoo's twitter after that. Of course the conservative agrees with the pilot. That's exactly the attitude conservatives want us to have. Divide and conquer. Get us to bitch about anyone slightly better off than us and they will happily boot them down to our level as long as we don't notice that they are earning a greater share of the total wealth than they have since feudalism with a lower percentage tax rate than us, and start asking for real change.
Seriously. You could tell all of his replies were going downhill once you got "conservative gamer" thrown in. I find it hard a lot of the time to listen to conservatives provide their opinion about anything without a voice in the back of my head going "Help, help, I'm being repressed."
Heckler's veto my ass, this never should've made it past first stage editorial review. I said it once and I'll say it again, this wasn't a tale from the trench per se, it was a op-ed telling people to stop writing op-eds he didn't want to read. What we don't need the Trenches to turn into is an op-ed flame war which is exactly what Captain Crappy Job was clearly aiming for. The Trenches should be about stories from the trenches, not direct replies to OTHER people's tales from the trenches
The response to getting treated like shit and exploited by your employers shouldn't be to throw shit at people who are getting exploited slightly less. It's totally a case of misplaced aggression. Get mad at the dudes who were screwing you.
This.
Like the main himself said, his wage was $17.50/hr.
It were his employment conditions which were sub-par (and likely illegal) and his employers which he should've been angered with.
He also let himself reach a situation whereas he eventually gotten himself screwed.
On a side note, a minimum wage of $10.50 is much better than what we get in Israel. But I assume that everything else is also more expensive, too.
Yeah, I don't see how that guy's situation is legal at all (I work as a contractor in a different industry and as long as you're not just gone and out to lunch, you get paid for being there), but his attitude is awful. "I had a bad situation, so unless you had it worse, STOP WHINING." What a goose.
(that is you can't sign them away, such as speech [except in certain circumstances such as an NDA])
Freedom of speech is freedom from government persecution. When you are at work, on a private message board, or at a business establishment, you do not have the same freedom. You can be fired, banned, or kicked out of pretty much anywhere for saying the "wrong" thing.
I don't like the fact that they removed the story. They liked it enough to post it. They should stand by that and take responsibility for posting such nonsense. This is like deleting a post from your blog because you got heat in the comments.
0
Options
El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
I don't like the fact that they removed the story. They liked it enough to post it. They should stand by that and take responsibility for posting such nonsense. This is like deleting a post from your blog because you got heat in the comments.
I think it's more like someone in a company issuing a press release and then someone higher up the company ladder yanking it because they realized that it wasn't kosher...
I don't have a problem with removing it. I mean, it's not like they're hiding it- it's still in the OP here. Choosing this story was legitimately a mistake, so it's being removed for the benefit of anyone who happens along while reading the archives.
damned if you do, damned if you don't
Edit: Also, people are allowed to change their minds and realize they did wrong and understand that something they liked is not good and then take it back. that's called being a healthy, mature adult.
Posts
Washington state, where a lot of the trenches stories seem to come from (since a lot of the awful testing contractor jobs are for MS/Nintendo in Redmond)
Khoo-dos.
There's an interesting discussion about the state of airline pilots in the comments of this article:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/us-airlines-are-running-out-of-pilots/5431
I think it's very topical to say that sometimes stuff slips through QA, and the best response is to clean it up and move on.
As for the pilots... I'm kind of shocked that pilots would only make $17.50 an hour. I know his complaint is he makes less than that, but $17.50 / hour seems really low for a job that requires 100% travel time.
Nintendo Network ID - PirateLuigi 3DS: 3136-6586-7691
G&T Grass Type Pokemon Gym Leader, In-Game Name: Dan
Note the comments about unions only really benefiting pilots with seniority. This is a very common problem with unions in many industries. Unionization is not a panacea, as much as many people in this and a number of previous Trenches discussion threads seem to think it is.
Obviously the problem is that the airline in question has gotten away with not paying its employees when they're mandated to be at work and performing duties, and that has all sorts of downstream impacts beyond just the lost pay (not qualifying for benefits, not being considered a full time employee for lots of other purposes etc).
Saying "you must be at work at 6, you must go through all of these critical safety procedures and be done by 8, and we'll start paying you at 8:30 when you turn the engine on", should not be legal anywhere, and shouldn't survive any sort of legal challenge.
Man what a sanctimonious ass. Because I perceive my job to be worse than yours you aren't allowed to complain, especially when I come to your specifically designated complaint place to tell you as much. It's not whining when you're ASKED to vent. It's like going to a videogame forum and complaining that there is too much talk of videogames and then having an air of superiority while you say it. I feel bad for anybody who's ever had to work a terrible job or in terrible conditions, we can all relate and sympathize, that's kind of the reason of Trenches. But this guy really killed the good will he would have gotten with a respectful post that could have been something along the lines of, "I know how you guys feel, I have it rough too. Listen to my story, RESPECT."
Well I have a trenches story for you. At the height of the recession I lost a major game industry job. Out of desperation I worked something like an 80k a year game industry job for an entire year for free on the promise of being hired on with back-pay as soon as the company could afford it. Never made a dime, no actually I ended up spending a small amount of money. Balls in your court mister "I actually made some money" pilot guy.
I'd love to see what he has to say to all these posts. I wonder if he even reads these forums, probably too busy going to Chick-Fil-A and complaining that he doesn't like chicken sandwiches, then telling them his mother's chicken recipe is so much better.
The first job most people get is flight instructing. 99% of all flight instructors are considered independant contractors (even when they shouldn't be by the IRS guidelines, it isn't enforced well.) So you can be paid whatever you've been agreed to. This was my first flying job, and I was paid $25 per billable hour. If you have a lot of students you can do well, if you have none you might starve.
The second job most new pilots get is either at a regional airline or a small freight operator (flying either checks, medical work or UPS freight usually.) Professional pilots working for an air carrier are considered exempt employees from any minimum wage or overtime considerations in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) -- see part 13(b) for the pilot exemption. Being a co-pilot at a regional airline (doing flights as United Express) in Denver flying the Dash-8 was my second flying job, I got paid $19-21 a flight hour, with a minimum of 72 hours a month (so even if I didn't fly I would still get 72*19 dollars.) I think I MAY have broke $20,000 on my W-2 that year, and that would have been my third year flying professionally. I did have medical insurance though for the first time. After a year and a half I was furloughed (laid off.)
My third job was flying for a small freight operator. I had full benefits but still only made about $26,000/year -- but I only worked about 4 hours a day (2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening.) I did this for about 3 years and by the time I left I was making slightly over forty grand.
My current job is for an air ambulance company. My schedule is very desirable (in my opinion) -- I work 7 days on and 7 days off. My salary with the occasional overtime day picked up is in the low to mid seventies, and most of the time while I am on work I play video games, read novels or nap (12 hour shift at a house at the airport waiting until someone needs our services.) Considering I only work a cumulative of a little over six months a year and a large portion of my on-duty time consists of sitting on my ass I think I have a pretty awesome job at this stage of my career and have no desire to try to hustle back in the airline gig.
If I had to guess, I would say that the Story Writer was just starting out -- although a couple things about the story sound suspicious. Non-diabetic people don't lose consciousness because they have low blood sugar, even if they hadn't eaten all day. Losing consciousness and flying is pretty bad combination. Also the tests required by the FAA to rule out diabetes aren't expensive -- I know this because of a experience I had with the FAA AeroMedical Division years ago. Every 6/12 months commercial pilots are required to renew our physicals with an FAA doctor (just a regular doctor who does FAA physicals on the side.) Part of the physical involves peeing into a cup to test for a variety of things -- I don't pee well on pressure so the morning of the physical I chugged a 20 ounce of Dr. Pepper in the Doctor's waiting room. When I peed, the urinalysis said I had glycosuria (sugar in the urine) and my medical was deferred. I had to go to my regular doctor and get a A1c test, which was like MAYBE $80? Sent it in and got my medical back.
Finally, the most suspicious thing is the Masters in Aviation Whatever. While they certainly do have these degrees, nobody cares about them. Even the pinnacle of Holy Grail of aviation jobs ala Southwest, Delta, UPS, FedEx where you could make $100k+ as a co-pilot and over $200 as a captain only require just a bachelors degree, and they don't care what it is in either. Basket weaving, or philosophy. I can't imagine anyone starting out going and getting a Masters in Aviation, unless it was a career-changer who already had a bachelors degree and got duped by some aviation college. If so, I don't want to pay your student loan payments you poor bastard!
I'm not saying there aren't some real terrible places to work as a pilot -- there is this carrier called Pacific Wings who does mostly Hawaii flying but also has some Essential Air Service runs in the states. I understand their co-pilots are paid upwards of $10 per flight hour, and they also have to act as gate agent and baggage handler!
if you tl;dr here is the short version: just starting out as a pilot sucks, but there are good jobs to be had after you pay your dues. Damn, I used to hate that phrase. In that way it may be like game testing!
Then there's Chesley Sullenberger, who has been using his fame to be an activist for how poorly pilots are being treated these days by the airlines, in particular not getting enough sleep.
Even without that, though, given how they're basically trying to turn flying into bus service, taking out every luxury (outside of first class, of course) and scraping to retrofit planes to cram as many passengers into an individual flight as possible to make as much of a profit as they can...why would be people be surprised they're treating the pilots similarly?
But to the person who sent in the original rant, if you're reading this thread...have you not heard of solidarity?
Seriously. You could tell all of his replies were going downhill once you got "conservative gamer" thrown in. I find it hard a lot of the time to listen to conservatives provide their opinion about anything without a voice in the back of my head going "Help, help, I'm being repressed."
Heckler's veto my ass, this never should've made it past first stage editorial review. I said it once and I'll say it again, this wasn't a tale from the trench per se, it was a op-ed telling people to stop writing op-eds he didn't want to read. What we don't need the Trenches to turn into is an op-ed flame war which is exactly what Captain Crappy Job was clearly aiming for. The Trenches should be about stories from the trenches, not direct replies to OTHER people's tales from the trenches
This.
Like the main himself said, his wage was $17.50/hr.
It were his employment conditions which were sub-par (and likely illegal) and his employers which he should've been angered with.
He also let himself reach a situation whereas he eventually gotten himself screwed.
On a side note, a minimum wage of $10.50 is much better than what we get in Israel. But I assume that everything else is also more expensive, too.
Freedom of speech is freedom from government persecution. When you are at work, on a private message board, or at a business establishment, you do not have the same freedom. You can be fired, banned, or kicked out of pretty much anywhere for saying the "wrong" thing.
I think it's more like someone in a company issuing a press release and then someone higher up the company ladder yanking it because they realized that it wasn't kosher...
I don't have a problem with removing it. I mean, it's not like they're hiding it- it's still in the OP here. Choosing this story was legitimately a mistake, so it's being removed for the benefit of anyone who happens along while reading the archives.
Edit: Also, people are allowed to change their minds and realize they did wrong and understand that something they liked is not good and then take it back. that's called being a healthy, mature adult.