Finding venture capital

Inx

So I've posted before on the subject of forming a small games publisher with a group of friends. We've got a product on the cusp of beta testing, with a timetable of going to release a year after testing begins. The only problem is that we don't have any money.

A friend of a friend of mine is the kind of person who helps people like us find investors for small businesses. We were supposed to meet with him and see what's what, but never got the chance before I had a pretty severe falling out with our mutual friend. Now this guy refuses to do business with us (and I've lost a friend to boot).

As a result, we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle. We can't go forward without knowing we have the money to release within a reasonable timeframe, but we have no money of our own between us and no way of finding that money short of a bank loan. We want desperately to avoid bank loans because while we're confident of the QUALITY of our product, we just don't want to take the risk of the company going tits up before we can pay off the loan.

Does anyone here have any experience tracking down investors, or with finding people to assist in that?

Quid

Seems like you should be able to try Kickstarter or maybe Steam Greenlight.

Inx

Kickstarter was considered, but the problem is the amount we need, along with the fact that if things go sour we're still legally responsible for our backer perks that have made us kind of wary to use that as a resource.

Steam Greenlight wouldn't work for us, I should have specified that we intend on producing tabletop games.

ceres

Well, you can find someone with the same job title as that friend-of-a-friend, but honestly... you are not inspiring a lot of confidence here. I understand that you're trying to take all of the practicalities into consideration, but if you are going to sell this thing to anybody, be it kickstarter backers, a bank, or someone like your friend-of-a-friend, you're going to have to make it sound like this is something you think will work.

For a kickstarter, consider this: You make enough money to go through with your goal including all that stuff the backers would get, or you don't and you don't get squat, which means no backers to satisfy. I mean you need to have a good, well-set-up kickstarter where it is carefully explained what you plan to do with all the money you're getting, and that means you have to have a thoughtful enough budget with that money to include all your needs going into it. There's no point in running a kickstarter or getting a bank loan or getting investment or anything else if it's going to be for not enough money to get off the ground.

kime

Inx wrote: »

Kickstarter was considered, but the problem is the amount we need, along with the fact that if things go sour we're still legally responsible for our backer perks that have made us kind of wary to use that as a resource.

Steam Greenlight wouldn't work for us, I should have specified that we intend on producing tabletop games.

I honestly don't know anything about this, but are you saying you'd essentially be off the hook if you found "real" investors and then things "went sour"?

Deebaser

Kick starter is your best and only realistic option.

Kime, he would be completely off the hook if the venture went tits up. It happens all the time, but that's why it's extraordinarily unlikely that anyone with deep pockets would invest what he needs

Djeet

Inx wrote: »

we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle. We can't go forward without knowing we have the money to release within a reasonable timeframe, but we have no money of our own between us and no way of finding that money short of a bank loan. We want desperately to avoid bank loans because while we're confident of the QUALITY of our product, we just don't want to take the risk of the company going tits up before we can pay off

What does this even mean?

I have been and am currently involved in independent startup projects. What you are asking for doesn't exist. You don't get your project started (meaning funded) without working for free or exposing yourself to significant personal downside risk, usually both.

If you have a deliverable then you have something to shop around for investment, but it is not clear you are there yet. If you have no contacts then focus on getting a good deliverable ready, and learning how to show it.

supabeast

Venture capital is for people in fast growth industries. A fast growth business plan needs to be about having something original, hiring tones of people, and then selling the company to a much bigger company. That doesn’t describe a tabletop game publisher. A tabletop game publisher is a tiny business that is very unlikely to grow fast (unless you have an idea as incredible as MTG, Pokemon, or Mage Knight) and very unlikely to be sellable.

If you don’t have the money to produce something big, rethink your game as something you can afford to produce. Or think of a smaller game you can produce to get you a footing that you can build on. Almost none of the big game companies out there started with inexperienced guys borrowing a pile of money and bringing a stunning project to market. Most of them started with something really cheap and built their way up slowly. Cheapass Games proved that if the game is fun to play all it needs is black ink on stiff paper stuffed into an envelope. Wizards of the Coast didn’t start with trading cards printed on fine stock in Belgium. There’s a reason John Blanche’s punk art style was so appropriate for early Games Workshop. And D&D (Chainmail) was plastic spiral-bound photocopies.

Inx

@ceres it's less that our product is no good - the game we're developing is pretty solid, and I'm confident in it. It's more that I'm worried the four of us are going to get all of our ducks in a row, get to product release, and then look at each other and completely run it into the ground like a bunch of idiots without proper guidance. Unfortunately I was never told what my friend-of-a-friend's proper job title was, and to be honest in retrospect the guy would have probably fucked us.

@Djeet I'm perfectly willing to work for free for awhile, to be honest. It's just that we don't have the money to produce really ANYTHING. We have a solid set of rules, but without the money to produce the minis we're kind of stuck. We've even got a solid plan for producing those minis, but funding is our main issue as of right now.

@supabeast I was using the wrong term then, considering we don't intend on selling the company. As far as producing something for the money we can afford - which is zero dollars - the problem then is distribution. How would we get the game out there and then also turn any sort of a profit with it without having any money to begin with? I get that you need to spend money to make money, but if there's no money to spend then what do we do? Of the four of us, I'm currently unemployed and the other three are living paycheck to paycheck. I'm not certain we could even GET a long if we applied.

I think my major issue with using Kickstarter (aside from being responsible for the backer perks) is that the more you ask for, the less likely you are to succeed, and we're going to need a decent amount of money for this.

Deadfall

Here's the thing.

It is balls hard to get any kind of money from anybody right now.

I'm not a banker, but I am an entrepreneur who has raised money for a business, and in my experience, not a single bank is going to lend to someone who has a prototype for a game without some serious collateral. I apologize to be the bearer of bad news, but if you have no money, you are going to find it very difficult to get any kind of loan for this.

Kickstarter, whether you like it or not, is going to be your best bet. But you're going to have to have a serious ground game to get the word around.

Inx

Okay, so I'll concede that Kickstarter might be our best bet here, and that biting the bullet has to happen. The question them becomes, what do we do if Kickstarter doesn't work out? I'd hate to have to call it quits because we couldn't find any money, you know? I feel like there's gotta be some resource I'm missing.

Deebaser

Do you have prototypes of the minis?

If not, what is your plan for getting them made? Other than rules, what do you have that you're ready to present?

supabeast

How would we get the game out there and then also turn any sort of a profit with it without having any money to begin with?

Get jobs and make some money. If you already have one job, get another job on weekends. Then tap the power of the internet. If you’re just selling a simple product it’s very easy to set up a free online store that takes Paypal.

The question them becomes, what do we do if Kickstarter doesn't work out?

Figure out why it didn’t work and try again.

You should spend a few weeks researching successful gaming Kickstarters. There’s been a lot written about them, and you should also analyze the successful and failed Kickstarters yourself.

Also, you need to chill out a little about this. You seem to be attached to the idea that this has to be a big sink or swim project, and that if it doesn’t work out, it’s just gone forever. That’s not productive. Think about things in smaller terms. Break your ideas down into smaller products that can succeed or fail without taking everything down. And realize that just because one product tanks you don’t have to walk away from ever trying again.

Djeet

@Inx what do you need money for? Is it due to needing to outsource something, like development of art assets, or wanting to invest in servers/DB or advertising?

Not calling you out to answer here, but often you have to stretch and build those competencies internally (for no comp). You will want to have a plan of action in case crowdfunding doesn't pan out.

Inx

@Deebaser no, we haven't been able to find a local sculptor or CAD artist that we can afford. Other than rules, we have some concept art. I guess we're not really ready to present to anyone but our beta testing group.

@supabeast easier said than done on the jobs front. I've been looking for the better part of a year for a job with no luck, and my colleagues are all working as much as their schedules allow (two are in school, one had medical restraints). Sadly, we're not selling something as simple as that, and it's not something that can be broken down into anything smaller than we've already broken it down into. We can't turn it into multiple games.

I know we don't have to walk away from the company if this product tanks, but I guess I hate the idea of this one tanking cuz it's the brainchild of me and one of the other guys. We've been working on this game for almost 2 years now.

@Djeet production of minis, mostly. We want to get them done through 3d printing, but we haven't been able to find a place to outsource to that doesn't potentially mess with copyrights for us. As a result, we want to set up out own facility for it. From there it would be nice to be able to commission some halfway decent (read: doesn't make your eyes bleed) art.

And that's why I was asking for ideas in case crowdfunding doesn't pan out.

ceres

I'm sure you think it's great, I'm just saying that you have to get into the habit of talking like it's great.

supabeast

You have no jobs, no money, and a product that can’t be refashioned into a simpler product that you could produce without funding. This is the wrong time for this product. Put it on the back burner and come up with something that you can do with the resources at your disposal. I know a lot of people who spent more than a decade to finally see a project come to life. They survived the wait, and so will you. And if you finish a bunch of smaller projects first, you’ll learn important things that can make your dream project come out great.

Djeet

For some reason I thought this was software.

Anyways, I'd hand the hat around to get funds to buy your own printer. If you cannot fund that internally I'd look at local businesses (comic and gaming stores) to sponsor the purchase. Maybe you can get them to each pony up some in exchange for free sets of games and minis.

The thing about getting people to give you money is that they want to see (like see in person or in video that stuff is cool) that you aren't blowing smoke up their ass. This is the same in Kickstarter as it is IRL.

Inx

I think we can close this thread down. I might not have a better idea of exactly WHERE to get money, but I've got a new perspective on things. I think I'm too focused on getting this one out the gate, and banking a lot on how well it does, when I really shouldn't be. This could pose other problems, because for some reason my colleagues listen to me when I say things. I might not be the best man for that job.

Food for thought, thanks guys.

ceres

For what it's worth I've had friends who use their spare money roaming kickstarter looking for new board games and card games and whatnot to play. That is actually a thing that some people do. But you still have to have something to sell them, I think.