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[PATV] Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 5, Ep. 16: Religion in Games (Part 1)
Here's a question I was really hoping this video would cover (keep in mid that I am in NO WAY critizing the video, I just didn't get my one question answered yet): Why is it okay to rewrite (read: bastardize) ancient religions (as for example, the greek pantheon) but not current, or still practiced religions.
Why is it okay for Kratos to run around and kill every single greek god and bath in thier blood, but the very moment a game (Say... Smite) puts in a god peoples are still praying to (say for example... Shiva) then suddenly things have gone too far?
And for that matter, why is it when anyone brings up the word "cult" or "pagan" in any form of mass entertainment these days, it usually ends up skewed along the lines of baby-eating?
I really miss that time in history, when "cult" simply meant you worshipped one specific god out of a pantheon of them, or worshipped an aspect of a god in a sertain way.
Sorry, I guess I went a little crazy there. Also, this is several questions and not just one. But it is somthing I would like answered or at least discussed.
Excellent choice for the outro music. Katethegreat19 does some good stuff. I recommend her rendition of FF9's already awesome track, "You're Not Alone."
I'm curious why Mass Effect 2 is on that list. Are they talking abut Thane? Besides him, I can't remember religion playing much of a part in Mass Effect, and his religion doesn't seem much like any presently existing religions on Earth. Besides that it comes up now and then while talking to Ashley or the Hanar, but it's not a central aspect of the game or anything.
The basic idea would be the same as the old joke about it being ok to mock the Amish. You can't really offend someone by misusing a religion that no longer has a lot of practitioners. If you mock Scientology (like South Park has), you risk a lawsuit. There is no organized group that will do the same for the Greek, Roman or Norse pantheons. People take their religions extremely seriously (at least, enough people do that they can be offended) while mythology is more adaptable.
Cult and pagan have received their negative connotations over a long time. Pagan, heretic and other things have had a long period of being attacked by Christianity. Although, with stuff like Wicca, people are a bit more enlightened now instead of seeing paganism as being Satanism (and even Satanism isn't really Satanism in the way that it was portrayed ... outside of the Heavy Metal teens who have basically created their own cults out of the scare mongering stories of what Satanists are supposed to be). Cult is pretty much small offshoots of other religions. The saying goes, the difference between a cult and religion is if the founder is dead. Stuff like Waco, Jim Jones and Heaven's Gate have all given cult a bad name, although it has come into common usage in talking about entertainment. And really, that keeps closer to it's true meaning, as being out of mainstream but having a small number of devout followers.
The one game that (to me) did most justice to religion was Mass Effect
. I remember walking up to that Hanar preacher with a firm conviction that he was to stop his preaching. But then as I engaged in conversation with him, he pointed out some very important ideas such as the liberty of sharing a message. But other characters as well provided fascinating vistas of beliefs to explore. Although conversations with Ashley Kerrigan were a bit wonky at times I still felt that she portrayed her belief system well - especially during that critical dilemma stage.
Later, in Mass Effect 2 when I got to meet Thane Krios I thought that he was merely being sentimental about everything, but it turned out that his world was entirely different from what I could imagine. Eventually, I started to have intriguing conversations with him about the ethics of assassination, voluntary slavery, and family. But I guess what really touched me was in ME3 on his deathbed, the prayer said by Thane, Shepard and Koloyat. This showed that religion transcends personal beliefs, that it resonates within us, it strikes something universal in us all.
Regarding the video... I wonder why people say "judeo-christian" (thus leaving out islam), when it seems they ought to be saying "Abrahamic religions".
Judaism, christianity, and islam all share the same body of myths... i.e. that they all claim that there is one god (Jehova), all other gods are false, Jehova created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, Adam and Eve were banished, blah blah, Noah and the apocalyptic flood, blah blah, Abraham (loads of stories about him), and the list goes on...
BTW all three religions claim that Abraham was a real guy and that he founded their tradition... and that the other two have strayed from the true path. That's why they're called the "Abrahamic religions".
I think the easy answer is that they use "dead" religions exactly because there's no one to defend them. No large group will protest for what has been done to greek mythos in Gods of War or the Disney Hercules. On the other hand, current major religions have large vocal groups complainig about what they think offends their religion.
As much as I loathe to sound like a fanboy, the Shin Megami Tensei games are WONDERFUL at exploring the various aspects of religion. The games focus around the interpretation of religious morality and the consequences of good vs evil. Hell, in Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne, you're put in charge of a creation myth, competing with both YWHY and Satan for control. Then there's the lore aspect, which if you look at it, is INSANE. Most of the enemies from SMT are representations of actual gods and deities from around the world. Hell, in Persona 3 you can have a team comprised of Satan, Lucifer, Bealzebob, the Messiah, Odin, Thanatos (death incarnate), Chernobog, Chu Cullain, etc. etc. Pretty much every mythology is represented in the series at some point.
This is the second episode of Extra Credit that I've watched so far, and I've found both episodes to be pretty interesting and well written. If the voice of the reporter didn't make my ears bleed, I would probably watch Extra Credit every time a new episode came out.
Xenogears, and to a lesser extent, Xenosaga, did really well with presenting religion. Sure they borrowed heavily from certain myths, but what I felt they did really well with was presenting concepts of Christian myth and some of the tenants of that in a mature way. Now granted, it was overwrought, and used some very high concepts, but they presented it in a way that no other game had ever done before.
I've always wondered how the final chapter of Xenogears would have finished this off if they had the money and time to finish the game properly.
The core story of Breath of Fire II was all about religion, and it was explored in a very interesting manner. It explored how it could bring people together, how it could be abused to manipulate the masses, as well as exploring just how divided a region can become, simply by the existence of two very different religions.
It was stunning to see religion explored in such a way, all from a Super Nintendo game.
Final Fantasy X was mired in religion. Most of the society is part of the Yevon religion, named after a great teacher Yu Yevon, who they consider a god. The characters go on a pilgrimage, in which they visit various temples that house supernatural beings they can later ask for help. Spirits of the dead are "unsent" unless a Summoner completes a funeral ritual. The Al Bhed are skeptics, and attempt to give secular explanations for the supernatural events around them. Even the song you hear throughout the game, the Hymn of the Fayth, is modeled after Gregorian chants. I could go on, but the most interesting aspects and messages FFX has to say about religion require major spoilers.
Why the BALLS was The Binding of Isaac not brought up as a modern example? That game is fucking genius at using mechanics as metaphor to communicate how Isaac interacts with religion and his repressed hate. Seriously, GREAT modern example.
Yeah, I kinda felt the same way about it Titanium but it makes sense to assume this is more of an introductory piece to next week's episode which I assume will go into representations of religion in much more depth while dealing with their most divisive aspect, Faith.
To be fair, I haven't played any games that actually deal with the mechanics or lore in a particularly controversial way. They tend to be presented matter of factly- adding modifiers like +1 Happiness / Unrest in Civ-style games and throwing in some extra super-powered allies and villains. There's yet to be a game [I've seen] that addresses the arguable ridiculousness of religious lore though for all I know there might be an indie game that has you dismembering through a caste of omnipotent Pink Unicorns.
Faith is the element of religion that drives humans on the more personal level and as such can be examined in many more different and nuanced ways with regard to individual characters. I reckon next week will bring up a few more powerful issues than 'It's hard to find games that address religion but the ones that do tend to do ok with it'.
To be honest, I'm a little surprised that Dead Space wasn't brought up here. Wasn't there a religious cult that was based in turning humans into the monsters in that game?
Seriously, nothing in the Elder Scrolls series appeared or was referenced once in the entire thing?
Two things.
Yeah, I understand that they aren't real world religions, but they serve as that most effective point that a game or narrative can address difficult issues by; the analog. They serve as a separate boundary to ask you what you believe in, and what you're willing to do in a given situation. There's even a good amount of modern Abrahamic religious ideas in there, notably that in the dichotomy of the world, it is "evil" that is the most active and the "good" gods who are the most passive. That brings up entire situations and questions that revolve around having the player question their beliefs without attempting to pass judgement on them or really even alerting them to it.
Also, there's entire plot points that revolve around religion in the games. Skyrim goes into various aspects of "religious" crusades and censorship of religion. Oblivion's main story points to it as an analog of the "War in Heaven". The Nerevarine is the center of a religious cult, the Dragonborn is considered by some in the game to be a reincarnation of other dragonborn or at least on the same level as the others. There's a lot of religious significance in the games to consider, and because they're analog-religions, they make the players define their own beliefs without distracting from gameplay.
Not sure what direction you'll go with the faith based portion of this conversation, but I think back to Grandia 2 and am really impressed by their handling of religion. There are some elements of mechanics (entire strategy of the Elena/Millennia character) based on the religious pure version and her possessed evil side. And they also cover the faith aspect really well IMO. A major component of the narrative deals with a spiritual quest, and the character's handling their faith (or lack thereof for Ryudo) as the story progresses. That and the trials faced by Elena as her faith and purity seem to be tested further and further as the game goes on.
Xenogears has always held a special place in my heart thanks to the things it did back in a day when, as I recall, Nintendo still had a company wide policy to remove religious iconography and references form their games. Not only was there the Tower of Babel, Billy and the Ethos, Solaris and the Lambs but the most iconic and resonant moment to me was the revelation of the past. The moment following Sophia's death, when Krelian swore he would create God with his own two hands while Lacan swore to see the world end even if he must destroy it himself, was a very interesting commentary on the reality of martyrdom that is rarely ever looked at.
Maybe it’s just my inner fan boy speaking but I’m really surprised that you didn’t mention shin megami tensei/persona when you talked about religious lore in video games.
I can’t think of games that use religious lore more effectively like how in persona 3 the fact that your starting persona is Orpheus and your strongest is basically Jesus.
It’s really clever when you think about what happens over the course of the story and who your ultimately fighting against .
Good points about SMT, and I am a fan of those, but I think the Persona series used that aspect better, especially in 3&4, surprised they didn't use that in the episode.
The inclusion of the mythological references, along with the commu system, really shows how cohesive the games are as a whole. The Mythological elements are references to Jungian psychology, which in turn relate to how you develop your character and interact with people you know. Deep stuff.
Because Judaism and Christianity have the same base of written scripture. Christianity believes that the portions of the Jewish scripture that are included in the Christian bible are just as valid and of divine origin as the New Testament. Indeed, Jesus is seen as the fulfillment of the prophesies in the Jewish writings. However, Islam does not use either Christian or Jewish writings as Canon. Specifically, while a Christian may feel bound to teachings from the Tanakh (Old Testament) even if it is not included in the New Testament specifically* (whether their upper management agrees or not) a Muslim would not feel the same. Islam generally refuses to be bound by anything that is not directly derived from the Qu'ran.
While Islam does share some important fundamentals with the Judeo-Christian religions, the differences are far more numerous and significant than the similarities. (In my opinion, yours necessarily will differ.) Primarily the biggest difference being the relationship between man and God. Ultimately the teachings of Islam start from a common seed much like Judaism/Christianity but it diverges quickly and the end result is that they are not compatible. (At least in the details, some would argue that in the grand themes they are, but again in my opinion they are not.)
Referring to "Judeo-Christian Religions" instead of "Abrahamic Religions" implies that the author is referring to the more closely tied themes of Christianity and Judaism instead of the more loosely tied origins of the three main Abrahamic ones.
* For example, many Christians feel bound by the anti-homosexuality laws in Leviticus even though they do not appear to be reiterated anywhere in the Gospels.
Religion in games is definitely too broad a topic to really speak intelligently about. It would almost be best to start with one game's treatment of religion, say, how it was used in Morrowind (which had a rich religious context), and go from there. You know, something bottom up. Going at this from a top down perspective kind of kills it.
I'd never thought of Halo in those terms before. I'm curious as to why they chose John 1:17 ("For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.") over John 11:7 ("Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again."). My confusion probably comes from my complete ignorance of the importance and meaning of these passages. (Well, not John 1:17. I can see that one as a separation from the other Abrahamic religions.) The second passage, John 11:7, seems to suggest "going home," a theme which is often explored in the Halo franchise.
So. TL;DR - Is John 1:17 or John 11:7 more pertinent to the messages conveyed in Halo? Thoughts?
I'm really hoping Grandia II gets mentioned in the next episode. As a practicing Catholic, that game changed my world view as a child. It made me examine my faith much more closely and in a more adult way. It was very critical of ideas I had taken for granted but in the end my faith felt strengthened. It managed to be critical of certain aspects but still acknowledge that good existed within it. It was something I never expected from a video game as a child.
I'm really, really hoping that LIMBO gets mentioned in the next episode for its religious undertones.
LIMBO is such an amazing game for the reason that, at the surface level, it's left the door wide open for what "religion" is. Instead, it plays off the themes of faith and LIMBO - the idea that there's something beyond, that we can recover.
SPOILER WARNING!
Right from the name and super-basic premise, they've hooked you. And everything in the game reinforces it: the fact that the character "dies" several times makes you wonder if he was ever really alive to begin with. The end screen with the flies hovering over two corpses. The mind control slugs representing the struggles for control, and the power of light.
Honestly, LIMBO is one of the most spiritual focused games I've ever played, and it pulls it off without ever specifically mentioning "religion."
Not only are the references to SMT in these comments useful, but it's a bit woosh to show a montage of games at the roughly 2 min mark including SMT: Digital Devil Saga and then suggest that no game uses more than the surface elements of those deities. The entire plot of both halves of SMT:DDS revolves around the Hindu concept of finally ascending to Nirvana by becoming complete - the freedom from 'samsara' and resolving all the flaws of your soul. Is it an older game? Yes. Is it wonky and weird? Yes. Is it a replacement for being a Hindu religious studies scholar? No - but it's much deeper than it suggests and a couple points above Kratos punching Poseidon in the face.
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anthony_arndtMoscow, RussiaRegistered Usernew member
Regarding the idea of using the pantheons of gods with few followers today (Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Greek, etc.) especially, as WalterJKovacs puts it, "The basic idea would be the same as the old joke about it being ok to mock the Amish. You can't really offend someone by misusing a religion that no longer has a lot of practitioners... There is no organized group that will do the same for the Greek, Roman or Norse pantheons. People take their religions extremely seriously (at least, enough people do that they can be offended) while mythology is more adaptable."
We do exist and there are groups representing us. Even here in Moscow, I am involved with the local group dedicated to the Norse gods that is not all that different from the groups I have worshipped with in Sweden and the United States. We do take our religion and its traditions quite seriously. The difference is that we are adults. We don't expect non-believers to accept or even respect our traditions as long as they leave us in peace. We have the right to freely practice our traditions, we do not have the right to be free from offense.
Case in point, the Marvel comics incarnation of Thor and the recent movies. Many liberties were taken and within our communities there was much discussion and a wide variety of opinions. In the end, the closest there was to a consensus was a resounding, "meh." I have yet to meet anyone calling for a boycott or letter-writing campaign and there has certainly been no violence. Though a group of white *Catholic* men did feel the need to protest the casting of a renowned Shakespearean actor as Heimdall, "The Whitest of the Gods" and father to the three classes of men according to Nordic mythology.
Posts
All of your opinions about religion are equally valid/invalid and cannot be proven or disproven by any other person! HAH!
Why is it okay for Kratos to run around and kill every single greek god and bath in thier blood, but the very moment a game (Say... Smite) puts in a god peoples are still praying to (say for example... Shiva) then suddenly things have gone too far?
And for that matter, why is it when anyone brings up the word "cult" or "pagan" in any form of mass entertainment these days, it usually ends up skewed along the lines of baby-eating?
I really miss that time in history, when "cult" simply meant you worshipped one specific god out of a pantheon of them, or worshipped an aspect of a god in a sertain way.
Sorry, I guess I went a little crazy there. Also, this is several questions and not just one. But it is somthing I would like answered or at least discussed.
Looking forward to the next episode.
The basic idea would be the same as the old joke about it being ok to mock the Amish. You can't really offend someone by misusing a religion that no longer has a lot of practitioners. If you mock Scientology (like South Park has), you risk a lawsuit. There is no organized group that will do the same for the Greek, Roman or Norse pantheons. People take their religions extremely seriously (at least, enough people do that they can be offended) while mythology is more adaptable.
Cult and pagan have received their negative connotations over a long time. Pagan, heretic and other things have had a long period of being attacked by Christianity. Although, with stuff like Wicca, people are a bit more enlightened now instead of seeing paganism as being Satanism (and even Satanism isn't really Satanism in the way that it was portrayed ... outside of the Heavy Metal teens who have basically created their own cults out of the scare mongering stories of what Satanists are supposed to be). Cult is pretty much small offshoots of other religions. The saying goes, the difference between a cult and religion is if the founder is dead. Stuff like Waco, Jim Jones and Heaven's Gate have all given cult a bad name, although it has come into common usage in talking about entertainment. And really, that keeps closer to it's true meaning, as being out of mainstream but having a small number of devout followers.
Later, in Mass Effect 2 when I got to meet Thane Krios I thought that he was merely being sentimental about everything, but it turned out that his world was entirely different from what I could imagine. Eventually, I started to have intriguing conversations with him about the ethics of assassination, voluntary slavery, and family. But I guess what really touched me was in ME3 on his deathbed, the prayer said by Thane, Shepard and Koloyat. This showed that religion transcends personal beliefs, that it resonates within us, it strikes something universal in us all.
Judaism, christianity, and islam all share the same body of myths... i.e. that they all claim that there is one god (Jehova), all other gods are false, Jehova created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, Adam and Eve were banished, blah blah, Noah and the apocalyptic flood, blah blah, Abraham (loads of stories about him), and the list goes on...
You can read more about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
BTW all three religions claim that Abraham was a real guy and that he founded their tradition... and that the other two have strayed from the true path. That's why they're called the "Abrahamic religions".
I think the easy answer is that they use "dead" religions exactly because there's no one to defend them. No large group will protest for what has been done to greek mythos in Gods of War or the Disney Hercules. On the other hand, current major religions have large vocal groups complainig about what they think offends their religion.
You know you're doing something wrong when the other folks in your religion think you've gone off the rails.
I've always wondered how the final chapter of Xenogears would have finished this off if they had the money and time to finish the game properly.
It was stunning to see religion explored in such a way, all from a Super Nintendo game.
To be fair, I haven't played any games that actually deal with the mechanics or lore in a particularly controversial way. They tend to be presented matter of factly- adding modifiers like +1 Happiness / Unrest in Civ-style games and throwing in some extra super-powered allies and villains. There's yet to be a game [I've seen] that addresses the arguable ridiculousness of religious lore though for all I know there might be an indie game that has you dismembering through a caste of omnipotent Pink Unicorns.
Faith is the element of religion that drives humans on the more personal level and as such can be examined in many more different and nuanced ways with regard to individual characters. I reckon next week will bring up a few more powerful issues than 'It's hard to find games that address religion but the ones that do tend to do ok with it'.
Two things.
Yeah, I understand that they aren't real world religions, but they serve as that most effective point that a game or narrative can address difficult issues by; the analog. They serve as a separate boundary to ask you what you believe in, and what you're willing to do in a given situation. There's even a good amount of modern Abrahamic religious ideas in there, notably that in the dichotomy of the world, it is "evil" that is the most active and the "good" gods who are the most passive. That brings up entire situations and questions that revolve around having the player question their beliefs without attempting to pass judgement on them or really even alerting them to it.
Also, there's entire plot points that revolve around religion in the games. Skyrim goes into various aspects of "religious" crusades and censorship of religion. Oblivion's main story points to it as an analog of the "War in Heaven". The Nerevarine is the center of a religious cult, the Dragonborn is considered by some in the game to be a reincarnation of other dragonborn or at least on the same level as the others. There's a lot of religious significance in the games to consider, and because they're analog-religions, they make the players define their own beliefs without distracting from gameplay.
Good episode, interesting thought exercise.
I can’t think of games that use religious lore more effectively like how in persona 3 the fact that your starting persona is Orpheus and your strongest is basically Jesus.
It’s really clever when you think about what happens over the course of the story and who your ultimately fighting against .
The inclusion of the mythological references, along with the commu system, really shows how cohesive the games are as a whole. The Mythological elements are references to Jungian psychology, which in turn relate to how you develop your character and interact with people you know. Deep stuff.
Because Judaism and Christianity have the same base of written scripture. Christianity believes that the portions of the Jewish scripture that are included in the Christian bible are just as valid and of divine origin as the New Testament. Indeed, Jesus is seen as the fulfillment of the prophesies in the Jewish writings. However, Islam does not use either Christian or Jewish writings as Canon. Specifically, while a Christian may feel bound to teachings from the Tanakh (Old Testament) even if it is not included in the New Testament specifically* (whether their upper management agrees or not) a Muslim would not feel the same. Islam generally refuses to be bound by anything that is not directly derived from the Qu'ran.
While Islam does share some important fundamentals with the Judeo-Christian religions, the differences are far more numerous and significant than the similarities. (In my opinion, yours necessarily will differ.) Primarily the biggest difference being the relationship between man and God. Ultimately the teachings of Islam start from a common seed much like Judaism/Christianity but it diverges quickly and the end result is that they are not compatible. (At least in the details, some would argue that in the grand themes they are, but again in my opinion they are not.)
Referring to "Judeo-Christian Religions" instead of "Abrahamic Religions" implies that the author is referring to the more closely tied themes of Christianity and Judaism instead of the more loosely tied origins of the three main Abrahamic ones.
* For example, many Christians feel bound by the anti-homosexuality laws in Leviticus even though they do not appear to be reiterated anywhere in the Gospels.
So. TL;DR - Is John 1:17 or John 11:7 more pertinent to the messages conveyed in Halo? Thoughts?
I'm really hoping Grandia II gets mentioned in the next episode. As a practicing Catholic, that game changed my world view as a child. It made me examine my faith much more closely and in a more adult way. It was very critical of ideas I had taken for granted but in the end my faith felt strengthened. It managed to be critical of certain aspects but still acknowledge that good existed within it. It was something I never expected from a video game as a child.
LIMBO is such an amazing game for the reason that, at the surface level, it's left the door wide open for what "religion" is. Instead, it plays off the themes of faith and LIMBO - the idea that there's something beyond, that we can recover.
SPOILER WARNING!
Right from the name and super-basic premise, they've hooked you. And everything in the game reinforces it: the fact that the character "dies" several times makes you wonder if he was ever really alive to begin with. The end screen with the flies hovering over two corpses. The mind control slugs representing the struggles for control, and the power of light.
Honestly, LIMBO is one of the most spiritual focused games I've ever played, and it pulls it off without ever specifically mentioning "religion."
We do exist and there are groups representing us. Even here in Moscow, I am involved with the local group dedicated to the Norse gods that is not all that different from the groups I have worshipped with in Sweden and the United States. We do take our religion and its traditions quite seriously. The difference is that we are adults. We don't expect non-believers to accept or even respect our traditions as long as they leave us in peace. We have the right to freely practice our traditions, we do not have the right to be free from offense.
Case in point, the Marvel comics incarnation of Thor and the recent movies. Many liberties were taken and within our communities there was much discussion and a wide variety of opinions. In the end, the closest there was to a consensus was a resounding, "meh." I have yet to meet anyone calling for a boycott or letter-writing campaign and there has certainly been no violence. Though a group of white *Catholic* men did feel the need to protest the casting of a renowned Shakespearean actor as Heimdall, "The Whitest of the Gods" and father to the three classes of men according to Nordic mythology.
EDIT: This one went through instantly, but my carefully thought-out response didn't.