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My mother is a right-wing nutjob and I'm a commie liberal (American Jews and Israel)
ChopperDave
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Registered User regular
So I just came out of the latest in a long-running series of tiffs with my mother, and I don't know what to do. I can't believe something as far away as Israel could be so divisive within my own damn family.
You see, I've never really been altogether comfortable with the (Nation-)State of Israel, even as a kid (I'm 20 now). I couldn't help but have an emotional connection with the place - I come from a Jewish upbringing and heritage after all, and the pride for Israel is strong even as an American. But in high school and college I started doing some soul-searching, took a few classes, did a LOT of reading of newspapers and articles and books from all sides.
The conclusions I've come to haven't made my family altogether happy. In buzzword terms, I'm anti-Zionist, pro-Israel. I believe that Zionism is an inherantly nationalist-socialist, exclusivist, and colonialistic enterprise. I also believe that there will never be peace as long as Zionism dominates the political dialogue, fueling ethnic nationalism and segregation. Also, I tend to think that the militaristic, land-oriented policies caused by Jewish statehood have done actual harm to the idea of a Jewish homeland, forcing Jews to put the preservation of the state of Israel over the preservation of their own people, morals, and beliefs. My hope (my idealism, I guess) is that, if Israel were to adopt a truly democratic and inclusive government for its Palestinian neighbors, much of the extremism in the state would be moderated - on both sides.
(On that note, I love to discuss this with people, but that thread is something for the D&D boards. Please either PM me or take me up in another thread if you wish to discuss my actual views).
My mother disagrees. Vehemently. Allow me to be more specific:
She refuses to read histories ("I won't read YOUR books") - claiming that essentially any facts disputing Zionism aren't facts at all - and simultaneously tells me I don't know anything because I wasn't alive in the 60s or 70s. She cites the factionalism in Iraq as evidence that Arabs are inclined towards ethnic warfare, and that the Israelis can't change that, or haven't done anything to cause or exacerbate tensions. She tells me that Jews and Arabs are ethnically predisposed to hate each other.
I guess I would be content to agree to disagree - despite her outright racism in a lot of her views - but she certainly is NOT. She sees me as morally abominable for even thinking to question the state and homeland of my "own people." She's told me that she's horrified that she could have raised me to be so callous.
So when we inevitably dismiss the others arguments, she goads me into defending my intelligence against insults. I can only take so much of it before I cave to her invective and lash out myself...she calls me a professor's stooge, I call her a propaganda-addled jingoist; she accuses me of disregarding the Holocaust, I accuse her of using the Holocaust to disregard the dozens of other atrocities that have happened since; she calls me a naive idealist, I call her an orientalist neo-liberal; she calls me a disconnected intellectual, I call her an emotional demagogue. She constantly, CONSTANTLY tells me that I am so (so!) uninformed, usually with an accompanying little patronizing laugh. At least this time I walked out before she could call me an anti-Semite (hah!).
It's just gotten unbelievable. I'll accept that she has a point in that I don't know the emotions behind the conflict, but then I don't think she has a proper understanding of them either. Regardless, it's this emotionalism that's driving a wedge between us here. I feel like every time I see her, she baits me into this same old argument (I ALWAYS try to avoid it), even when she promised me not to. And every time we argue, it always leaves me storming off and avoiding her, and her crying and losing sleep that her son could "reject" "his people" so thoroughly. Even after we apologize, we're still more distant afterwards. We're both losing tons of respect for each other, both intellectually and emotionally. I avoid talking to her on the phone for fear that she'll bait me into yet another argument.
Guys, my relationship with my mom has been really good until now. We usually agree on everything. Hell, we even agree on every aspect of American politics, and she's as liberal/progressive as they come when it comes to politics on this side of the ocean. Normally, our communication is fantastic, and she is never crass or hurtful. I really don't want to find myself cutting her off over one issue like Israel.
But when she has the same kind of discussion about Israel she just snaps. She goes from thoughtgul and respectful discussion to tossing hateful invective, insults my personality and my morals, talks to me as if I don't know as much (if not more) about the history as she does...it's horrible. And it's not like I can pretend to have had a sudden change of heart and views, because she knows me far too well and would easily see through me.
I can't figure out what to do. I can't give her any books, because she won't read them if I recommend them. Ditto with articles, websites, groups (Seeds of Peace is idealistic trash and Ta'Ayush Arab propganda!). She won't even concede to TRY to understand where I'm coming from, no less talk about MY feelings, as they are so much less informed than hers. As long as we disagree, she will try to convince me - always in her verbally abusive way (which is TOTALLY uncharacteristic of her, by the way)- of how wrong I am, hoping that I'll finally see the light. Whenever I don't, she despairs and lashes out at me more.
Is this just hopeless? Please tell me my only option isn't to avoid talking to her...
tl;dr My ideals regarding Israel are destroying my relationship with my fundamental, pro-Zionist mom. I'm already "out," and she knows me too well for me to fake a sudden change of heart. I'd be happy to just agree to disagree and let the issue lie, but she just won't let it go, and every argument is widening the rift.
You see, I've never really been altogether comfortable with the (Nation-)State of Israel, even as a kid (I'm 20 now). I couldn't help but have an emotional connection with the place - I come from a Jewish upbringing and heritage after all, and the pride for Israel is strong even as an American. But in high school and college I started doing some soul-searching, took a few classes, did a LOT of reading of newspapers and articles and books from all sides.
The conclusions I've come to haven't made my family altogether happy. In buzzword terms, I'm anti-Zionist, pro-Israel. I believe that Zionism is an inherantly nationalist-socialist, exclusivist, and colonialistic enterprise. I also believe that there will never be peace as long as Zionism dominates the political dialogue, fueling ethnic nationalism and segregation. Also, I tend to think that the militaristic, land-oriented policies caused by Jewish statehood have done actual harm to the idea of a Jewish homeland, forcing Jews to put the preservation of the state of Israel over the preservation of their own people, morals, and beliefs. My hope (my idealism, I guess) is that, if Israel were to adopt a truly democratic and inclusive government for its Palestinian neighbors, much of the extremism in the state would be moderated - on both sides.
(On that note, I love to discuss this with people, but that thread is something for the D&D boards. Please either PM me or take me up in another thread if you wish to discuss my actual views).
My mother disagrees. Vehemently. Allow me to be more specific:
She refuses to read histories ("I won't read YOUR books") - claiming that essentially any facts disputing Zionism aren't facts at all - and simultaneously tells me I don't know anything because I wasn't alive in the 60s or 70s. She cites the factionalism in Iraq as evidence that Arabs are inclined towards ethnic warfare, and that the Israelis can't change that, or haven't done anything to cause or exacerbate tensions. She tells me that Jews and Arabs are ethnically predisposed to hate each other.
I guess I would be content to agree to disagree - despite her outright racism in a lot of her views - but she certainly is NOT. She sees me as morally abominable for even thinking to question the state and homeland of my "own people." She's told me that she's horrified that she could have raised me to be so callous.
So when we inevitably dismiss the others arguments, she goads me into defending my intelligence against insults. I can only take so much of it before I cave to her invective and lash out myself...she calls me a professor's stooge, I call her a propaganda-addled jingoist; she accuses me of disregarding the Holocaust, I accuse her of using the Holocaust to disregard the dozens of other atrocities that have happened since; she calls me a naive idealist, I call her an orientalist neo-liberal; she calls me a disconnected intellectual, I call her an emotional demagogue. She constantly, CONSTANTLY tells me that I am so (so!) uninformed, usually with an accompanying little patronizing laugh. At least this time I walked out before she could call me an anti-Semite (hah!).
It's just gotten unbelievable. I'll accept that she has a point in that I don't know the emotions behind the conflict, but then I don't think she has a proper understanding of them either. Regardless, it's this emotionalism that's driving a wedge between us here. I feel like every time I see her, she baits me into this same old argument (I ALWAYS try to avoid it), even when she promised me not to. And every time we argue, it always leaves me storming off and avoiding her, and her crying and losing sleep that her son could "reject" "his people" so thoroughly. Even after we apologize, we're still more distant afterwards. We're both losing tons of respect for each other, both intellectually and emotionally. I avoid talking to her on the phone for fear that she'll bait me into yet another argument.
Guys, my relationship with my mom has been really good until now. We usually agree on everything. Hell, we even agree on every aspect of American politics, and she's as liberal/progressive as they come when it comes to politics on this side of the ocean. Normally, our communication is fantastic, and she is never crass or hurtful. I really don't want to find myself cutting her off over one issue like Israel.
But when she has the same kind of discussion about Israel she just snaps. She goes from thoughtgul and respectful discussion to tossing hateful invective, insults my personality and my morals, talks to me as if I don't know as much (if not more) about the history as she does...it's horrible. And it's not like I can pretend to have had a sudden change of heart and views, because she knows me far too well and would easily see through me.
I can't figure out what to do. I can't give her any books, because she won't read them if I recommend them. Ditto with articles, websites, groups (Seeds of Peace is idealistic trash and Ta'Ayush Arab propganda!). She won't even concede to TRY to understand where I'm coming from, no less talk about MY feelings, as they are so much less informed than hers. As long as we disagree, she will try to convince me - always in her verbally abusive way (which is TOTALLY uncharacteristic of her, by the way)- of how wrong I am, hoping that I'll finally see the light. Whenever I don't, she despairs and lashes out at me more.
Is this just hopeless? Please tell me my only option isn't to avoid talking to her...
tl;dr My ideals regarding Israel are destroying my relationship with my fundamental, pro-Zionist mom. I'm already "out," and she knows me too well for me to fake a sudden change of heart. I'd be happy to just agree to disagree and let the issue lie, but she just won't let it go, and every argument is widening the rift.
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ChopperDave on
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It takes two people to argue. If you don't let her do it, she should eventually stop trying to. You'll never win with her, so stop trying to do it.
Satans..... hints.....
I know how frustrating it can be when someone dismisses your viewpoint, especially when you really believe its valid. I remember i used to get into lots of fights with my grandmother about social problems (Prostitution, drug use, etc) and whenever i would make a valid point her response would be, without fail "You just dont understand how the world works". I finally realised its just easier to not have these conversations, rather than try in vain to express my viewpoint to someone who clearly does not want to hear it. Now i just say "I guess so" or "That sounds right", even if i completely disagree. I suggest you do the same with your mother, no matter how strongly you believe she is wrong, or no matter how badly she tries to drag you into a conversation about it.
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I would suggest a 3 part strategy.
1 - a canned response. Work out a sentence reply that sums up your stonewall defense and is universally applicable to the subject. example "Mom, we've already covered this. Is your memory slipping?" if you want to be snarky, or more nobly "I have nothing more to discuss on the subject until we can agree to read all the same source material." The goal is to use the exact same sentence every time she starts in. She may try various angles of approach, but as soon as you realize where she's going, throw out out stonewall verbatim. Hopefully eventually she'll get bored and want to engage on less hostile terms or start asking real questions instead of baiting you. be very specific with yourself about what criteria she must meet for you to release the stonewall, and communicate those to her at the appropriate signs of reason.
2 - Physically leave. This is hard, but you should find a way to move out of sight any time you have to use your canned response. go to a different room first, but if it persists leave the house, block, township, county, state or country, whatever it takes. Don't be rude. Disengage with grace.
3 - Develop a Mantra. She is going to upset you. Thats unavoidable. she'll upset you when your not even there. if she's anything like my father was in our blow-out phase, she'll make sure to tell all the relatives or people that know you what an anti-semite you are so you'll get it second hand too. Have a Mantra to affirm your beliefs and calm yourself when any of this happens. hastily formed example: "I love my mother, and i know she is hurting me to lessen her own pain. She loves me. It hurts her because she doesn't understand. She loves me and in time she will be ready for discourse. i will win with love and not hate. I love my mother... (back to beginning)". It helps if it flows back to the beginning. Learn to time it with deap breaths and give it some familiar cadence. Make sure it includes openness and a critically analytical viewpoint. do not start self-brainwashing. Thats not what mantras are for.
Good luck, and FTR i agree with your viewpoint 100% and do not think it is in any way anti-semetic.
Agree.
Before you do that, though, sit her down at some point, and tell her "listen, mom, I love you, but I really can't stand the way you treat me over the Israel issue, so since we can't agree, and we can't talk about it without being really hurtful, I'm just not going to talk about it." Then, stick to your guns. Every time she brings it up, leave the room/house/county/whatever. If it's over the phone, just interrupt her with "I love you, mom; bye" and hang up. In the long-term, I think this will do a lot less damage to your relationship than the arguing will.
Also try to remember that different people experienced different things generationally. I'm not saying which of your sides is wrong or right, but when events happen, like the 6-Day War, it can change a person's outlook which logic alone would not be able to overcome.
And remember, if this were as easy to resolve as everyone seems to think, we wouldn't have already put up with 50+ years of this crap.
remember that she's a product of her times, just like you are. a die-hard Jewish zionist who had her formative years during her mother country's most chaotic period isn't going to have the same kind of perspective on things as you will. it's impossible for you to have her perspective on anything, simply because you don't have anywhere near the same kind of experiences.
you accuse her of not trying to see where you're coming from, but honestly dude, i think you're doing the same thing. everytime you start to get pissed about something she says, think about why she might be saying it. also, just because you disagree doesn't mean that you have be baited into an argument. if you HAVE to talk about this with her, don't let your emotions get the better of you. if you remain calm and level headed, chances are she'll do the same.
I mean, a lot of times I can see it coming. She gets this air about her when she's about to attack me on it, and when I can read her well enough my mind will go "ABORT ABORT" and I'll get the fuck out before any damage is done.
The problem is when she gets tricky about it. One time, for example, she pretended to want me to explain my views and where they come from, just so she could come to a better understanding. Thinking this was a good opportunity to show that anti-Zionism=/anti-Semitism, I fell for it, and answered all her questions. Fifteen minutes later the understanding facade was gone and she was lashing out, and I was defending myself per usual.
Another time she called me after one of my professors invited me, along with everyone else in our old Middle Eastern politics class, to come discuss modern issues on a radio show. I was stoked, so I told my family, and my mom of course IMMEDIATELY asked what his views on Israel were. It's not like I could not tell her - avoiding the question would answer her question - so I told her he was pretty anti-Zionist. Of course, since the prof is not Jewish, that removes any barriers she would normally have for tossing barbs, so soon enough I was defending my prof (and by proxy, myself) against accusations of being an out-of-touch anti-Semite."
It's rough. I mean, sometimes she tricks me like in the first case - and I've gotten better about not stepping in those - or she makes it impossible for me to avoid the situation, like in the second. It comes down to me either hanging up or walking out (i.e. ignoring her), which validates her opinion of me (I dont care what she thinks about my views), makes her angry, and essentially postpones the same fight for another day (because she WILL start up where we left off later).
I've been trying the stonewall approach lately, but I guess it's hard for me to keep up because I feel it makes me look weak. Once again, it's not just a viewpoint I seem to be defending with her, but an entire moral code and personality - it's hard to let that go and let her think badly of ME. But I guess I'll tough through it...obviously, trying to convince her that my position is morally legitimate isn't getting me anywhere.
She's never even been to Israel. None of our relatives, that I know of, have ever lived or died in Israel.
That said, I understand that she still had a very different emotional, gut-level response to the Six-Day War, just as I hope she understands that I had a very different emotional, gut-level response to the Second Intefada. I know that I can't argue perspective, and I tend to agree with her when she says "you don't know what it was like."
But I don't think that makes her inherantly more knowledgable about the history. I've seen second-hand the same television announcements and newspaper articles she saw first-hand. I've read the same book or two she did, as well as the twenty critics that came afterwards. The emotions of the period are dampened on me, but the facts aren't, and my views are reinforced by a different kind of emotional outlook that has been influenced by MY experiences.
Anyway, yes, I understand that she has the emotional prerogative. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is when she uses that and turns it into a moral prerogative, and questions my very ethics. That's what gets to me.
You've just got to be stronger and not let it get to you. Just shake your head and say "sure thing mom." Or hell, even "you're probably right" which is, I'm sure, what she really wants to hear. You aren't compromising your beliefs, your putting them aside for the sake of your family.
If that fails, just tell her you've decided to come out of the closet. At least then you'll have something new to fight about.
that's not the point. she's got a much different connection to it than you do.
i'm not saying that she's right and you're wrong or anything like that. i'm just saying that her opinions are influenced by the era in which she grew up in, and you're going to have to understand that in some cases, no amount of facts or proof that you bring up are going to change her opinions on something that she witnessed and formed an opinion on as it was happening.
and that's understandable, but that's just what going to happen when you have those kinds of arguments. you can either let it get to you, or you can try and see where she's coming from rather than dismissing what she says out of hand (even if you're certain she's wrong). you don't have to agree with her to see what she's trying to get at.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Trust me, I know what buzz words to say and to not say when my mother corners me on this. Though nationalism-socialism does not necessarily equal Nazi Germany in my mind (though the comparisons, while modest/few, are certainly there), I know NOT to use that term when describing Israel's government to my mother. Ditto with describing Zionism as colonistic. Hell, I won't even describe myself as anti-Zionist if I can help it, seeing as it seems to shut her down and throw her into a blind fury.
I just saw her, and it's funny, because she's reverted to her normal self and is very pleasant once again. I really just need a way to keep her from worrying about this, because her horrible anger and vitriol seems to be rooted in just that: worrying. I really wish that just getting her to understand my views (not agree with, just understand) and their moral legitimacy would achieve that purpose, but it's obvious that I need to find another way.
There are a couple of advantages and important tips.
Advantages
1 - it lets her process the information without a target for ridicule / attack.
2 - It lets you say absolutely everything in the way you want it said. You can't be misrepresented if its in black and white, and you can refer to whats on the page if she tries to take you out of context.
3 - you can sandwich your perspective with the reality of what the conflict is doing to your relationship with her.
My personal Tips (if you choose to go this route):
1 - State clearly first off what you are hoping to accomplish by writing a letter.
2 - State clearly how you feel about your mom and why you chose to write a letter.
3 - State clearly your understanding of what the problem is from her perspective so that she can see you understand (or if you don't, she can see where the discrepancy is).
4 - Do not write an attack on Zionism. Write about what you've seen in your research. write about how you understand the cultural phenomena that led to Zionism, and then write about how you feel those things have caused problems despite the fact that the intention was a good one.
5 - Thank your mom for the good things in your relationship and for passing on her passion and fire to you.
6 - Hope she understands.
.... did i just break a rule by doing someone's homework for them?
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You need to set a precedent that you wont argue with her.
Tell her if she wants to ask for your opinions she is welcome to, but if she wants to challenge tell her to stop. And leave, you need to get up say you know what I'm going to do and leave. Everytime it's an argument you just need to do your routine of telling her that you wont argue with her and leave.
Satans..... hints.....
That's rubbish. People bring the same prejudices and preconceptions to a letter, newspaper article or book as they do a conversation. Not only that, but it gives her solid, irrefutable statements, in writing, to use as ammunition in future arguments. One slip-up in the letter and she can wave it in Dave's face for the rest of his life.
Dave, don't stonewall her. On the contrary, every time she tries to bring up a topic even remotely political, state very clearly and explicitly that you will not discuss it with her. That might sound like stonewalling, but it's not, it's pro-actively shooting her down before she even has time to get worked up rather than just trying to ignore her while she rants and raves. Stonewalling is passive aggressive, this is pro-active and disabling:
'Tell me about your point of view so that I can understand it better.'
'Not a chance. You will just turn the conversation into an argument.'
'So what are your professor's views on Zionism?'
'Hah!. I absolutely refuse to discuss that with you, mother.'
It's the strategic solution. She is trying to engage you in combat using a variety of strategies from direct frontal assaults to drawing you out with bait to guerilla ambushes. Meeting her attacks face on is just costly and bloody, engaging in guerilla skirmishes equally so and allowing yourself to be baited simply suicidal. Neither side will back down and nor will they ever be totally defeated. The solution is to disarm her, refuse to engage - not merely mobilise to defend yourself or allow her attack to pound on your outer perimeter but actually consistently move out of harms way so there is simply no target for her to attack.
Depending on how committed she is she may never relent from chasing after you, but she will expend far more energy making constant charges at empty bushes than you will side-stepping the attacks and refusing to entangle yourself in her advances.
I've seen it work very well for several family disputes, one much nastier than this one. The problem is that it only works if you can write a loving and respectful letter. If you can't resist throwing jabs and being petty, then its totally useless.
Mom?
Stop. I don't care.
*leave the room*
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Actually, I recall an example, I can't remember where from now, where a psychologist was getting physically and mentally ill due to being caught in the middle in family disputes and being expected to keep secrets about various family members bitching to him about other family members. His solution was to simply out everybody. He sent letters to his brother telling him what their mum had been saying about him, letters to his mum telling her what their sister though of her and so on with lots of petty jabs. The net result was a massive family bust up and him not being invited to any family members houses for a few years or being used as a confidant in their disputes, which ultimately suited him just fine. Eventually it ended up with a lot of the disputes being resolved and everybody was better off for him having outed everyone's feelings and most of them reconciled with him, even although he continued to periodically send similar letters.
But that's a substantially different kettle of fish. I don't get the impression that either Dave or his mum are
holding anything back or being terribly indirect with their conflicts.