Help me pick up imps to use as a shield and the other as a flail! (Recommend a p&p RPG)

Sebbie

Hey,

I know there's a subforum for this but seeing how I'm asking for help/advice I thought it fit better in here (if the mods feel differently feel free to move me).

I have played D&D 3, 3.5, and 4. I know how to play and I can kind of DM a game but I'm not an expert on the rules. I like 3.5 a lot and I hated 4. That being said when I play a table top RPG I like to build a world and allow the players to role play more than battle. I think battling is very important but I often feel that it becomes the focus in D&D... this is okay but what I don't like is that I have a hard time dealing with improvising... for example if I want to lift up a goblin and throw him in the crowd to trip them up or if I want to flip over that table and use it as a tower shield as I charge towards a bunch of archers... I never know how to calculate these (and I'll often get lost in all the possible DCs in the rulebooks).

Can anyone recommend a good game/set of rules that are simple to learn and allow for a lot of improvisation? Would you mind explaining briefly why you make the recommendation (as opposed to just telling me that Pathfinder is the best)?

Esh

Pathfinder. It's D&D 3.75.

EDIT: Hah, didn't see the last bit. But seriously, just take my word for it. That and I'm too hungover this morning to write any more than that. Maybe someone else can expand on this?

Also, don't get so hung up having to figure out every + and - when improvising. As DM, just make up a number and throw it out as the DC. That's the beauty of tabletop gaming, you can fly fast and loose with the rules.

Platy

I agree with Esh in that you should play fast and loose with the rules. I played 2nd edition AD&D back in the day, and here's how I would have handled those two situations:

1.) Simple strength roll to pick up and throw the goblin. Damage d2 or d4, plus the attack damage bonus if the character gets one. Goblins get a saving throw against not being able to attack during this or the next round.

2.) The table used as a tower shield functions like a tower shield. Attacks which would hit the charging attacker without a shield hit the table instead. AD&D has rules for how many hitpoints of damage various materials can withstand, so there's a possibility the table might break.

Hahnsoo1

If you want a 3.5 edition system that emphasizes doing cool shit in combat, take a look at Iron Heroes. At the very least, it can give you a framework for how to set up some improvised combat rules in your 3rd edition/3.5 edition/Pathfinder games.

But really, it's not that difficult to improvise things in combat. Just set a target number to reach, and have them roll above or below that number and determine consequences. You're the GM... this is your job.

As a player, I find improvising more difficult to do in Dungeons and Dragons (especially earlier editions), since the most optimal way to take out most encounters is delineated in the ruleset already. If you, as a GM, make improvised situations better than existing options, then be prepared to toss the ruleset you are playing out the window in terms of balance and fairness. This is one reason why most improvised combat "rules" in games turn out to be worse than just playing the combat vanilla. It is up to each individual GM as to whether or not you want to head down the path of "improvised is better than vanilla" in terms of mechanics (I personally think it's better in the long run, but I've seen games which it really tore up the group dynamic because of perceptions of unfairness).

Platy

I think it's okay to reward players for original and cool actions during combat (like trying to push an enemy from a bridge). They're supposed to be heroes, after all. If they start throwing goblins in every encounter, you need to make clear that this wasn't intended.

Thanatos

I'm no great lover of the system, but 4th edition does make improvising really easy.

In the situation you describe, it would be a Str. vs. Reflex attack to grab the goblin, and another one against the goblins he's attacking to knock them prone (treating the goblin as an improvised weapon).

Sebbie

Hahnsoo1 wrote: »

As a player, I find improvising more difficult to do in Dungeons and Dragons (especially earlier editions), since the most optimal way to take out most encounters is delineated in the ruleset already. If you, as a GM, make improvised situations better than existing options, then be prepared to toss the ruleset you are playing out the window in terms of balance and fairness. This is one reason why most improvised combat "rules" in games turn out to be worse than just playing the combat vanilla. It is up to each individual GM as to whether or not you want to head down the path of "improvised is better than vanilla" in terms of mechanics (I personally think it's better in the long run, but I've seen games which it really tore up the group dynamic because of perceptions of unfairness).

This is what I'm worried about. I mean in the context of a pincer attack on a bridge, grabbing a goblin and throwing it in the crowd to throw a few off the edge is freakin' awesome... but I don't want my players to rope 20 of them so they can use them as projectiles hahahaha. I'm pretty sure whacking them with a mace would end the encounter faster but I'm more interested in the indirect results of improvising (like tripping them up to keep them from attacking etc).

Platypus Beirut wrote: »

I think it's okay to reward players for original and cool actions during combat (like trying to push an enemy from a bridge). They're supposed to be heroes, after all. If they start throwing goblins in every encounter, you need to make clear that this wasn't intended.

Took my concerns right out of my mouth!

Looks like there's no particular system that's the best for this (except made 4E). I'm intrigued by Iron Heroes so I'll try and find some youtube videos of a session or something to see how they pull it off.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions!

Tofystedeth

If you're finding yourself in situations where your players are getting into goblin flinging brawls often, you might wanna work up a couple quick tables you can use either directly or as springboards for fudging.
The DM guides (speaking from a D&D mostly 4e perspective) typically have rules for improvised melee and thrown weaponsn with the to-hit modifiers and damage dice based on size. So start with those, then maybe do stuff like create a table based on the players attack roll where on a 1 the goblin lands lightly on its' feet close by, on a 20 both the hurled goblin and the guy he is hurled at are skewered on each other's weapons, with the range between being various normal damage and goblin related difficult terrain or whatever strikes your fancy.

As far as other systems, for a couple years we played Vampire and Mage and those systems really encourage improvisation. Especially Mage.

Hawkstone

It has been a very long time since I have played it, but I believe Exalted had a mechanic designed specifically around creative explanation of actions and intersting improvisation. As in there was a real world bonus the GM could apply for doing something cool and unique and describing it well. It may be worth a look. Though the last time I played was the 1st. Edition of the game...that mechanic could be long gone.

I second Pathfinder as the spiritual successor to D&D that our group felt 4th ed. was not. In terms of improv. it may be a little more "on the rails' than your looking for, but as many have said its always encouraged to play fast and loose with these sort of things, even within their own books. As long as your logic is consistant and your players are on board you will do fine. You can always go back and review how it should have been handled in post. Things like tables providing cover have rules if you care to find them, and what " action " a table flip might be is easily comperable to something listed like opening a door.

sullijo

Check out Dungeon World, a fantasy hack of the Apocalypse World RPG. It's got a simple (but not simplistic) rules set that focuses on characters doing awesome things awesomely. I played a session at GenCon and really enjoyed it as an alternative to old school DnD.

The game was funded on Kickstarter a while back; the system rules can be found at http://book.dwgazetteer.com/; the PDF is available for purchase and the physical book will be shipping soon.