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Job Switching etiquette...
ShadowBlade
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Morning all,
Long time reader, infrequent poster, but this group has never steered me wrong.
THE STORY:
I recently received a job offer. It would be the same basic job I have now, likely with much less "work", definitely less stress, same pay (benefits are up in the air so I may make less if i have to take that on myself, but that is not really the consideration here.), I will still get to work from home (which I do now), and my boss would be a man I like and respect.
I have been with the company I work for presently for more than 10 years, but 3 years ago the company was acquired by a larger firm, off site, in the same industry. The former CEO, my former boss and the man who hired me and allowed me to leave the on site location to work from home, left the company through the acquisition.
While I still have strong ties and work daily with everyone who works in the factory I design for, I have zero connection with my current actual employers. They have never given me any sign that they understand, let alone appreciate the value I bring to the company. I barely have any contact with them what so ever. While this makes my "job" easier in many ways, it does nothing to endear them to me. The company is also so large, that while I do not BELIEVE they can replace me easily, I have never been given any indication that I have any true security within the new structure.
I like my job in a lot of ways, but there are a number of things that make my day needlessly stressful. I like a good portion of the people I work with at the factory, but the client base can be very difficult. While much of what I do still stimulates me, I OFTEN think I would do better in my "work" with a "change of scenery".
THE QUESTIONS:
Should I decide to take the job offer, having been with the company for so long, I intend to be very reasonable and respectful when discussing the timing of my departure. I am a very key player and a revenue generator for my company. One of only two who have a measurable positive financial impact on the business. This would lead most to believe that were I to make such a plan known to those who sign my cheques that they would genuinely make offers to keep me. Sadly, I would actually find this highly unlikely. My co-worker, the only other revenue maker, attempted to leave the company a year or two ago. He did not have an offer, he was just looking for something new. The current owners did nothing to convince him to stay. The management at the factory had to step in, and I think he was talked down with vague promises. All that said, they could still make me some kind of offer. What do I do if they do?
The man I am considering going to work for is a small, but successful business. If I "accept" his offer, I would feel terrible to turn it down after. Do I talk to my bosses before accepting the offer? What if i do not want to do that?
The people I work with, on site, will be hit with a great challenge should I leave. There is literally no one to replace me within the current structure. They do not pay me though, and have no influence on those that do. I work WITH these people. I do not even have a boss among them. Should my loyalty to them have any influence on this considering I have no loyalty to the actual employers?
I am not happy in my current position. I have not been for at least 4 years now. I am not sure that anything I could negotiate for would change this.
More money would be nice as I have not had a raise in 5 years.
Security, a "solid" contract, is something I do not have currently and will be getting with the new job.
If my current employers made these offers to me that were superior to the offer on the table, what am I supposed to do if I have already accepted the new job? The job offer as it stands now has little room for negotiation. Smaller business.
Would I be insulting the man looking to hire me by declining after accepting?
What if none of this will actually make me as happy as I could have been in the new job?
What if I stay and the security and communication NEVER actually improve?
The industry I am in now is also on a bit of a decline. It is business wide and kind of a trend, but I have heard rumors and seen signs that there is a distinct possibility that the factory I work for now could be shut down within a few years. They are building a new facility closer to the home office. There could very likely be no place for me after a change like that.
Any help with all these questions would be greatly appreciated!
Long time reader, infrequent poster, but this group has never steered me wrong.
THE STORY:
I recently received a job offer. It would be the same basic job I have now, likely with much less "work", definitely less stress, same pay (benefits are up in the air so I may make less if i have to take that on myself, but that is not really the consideration here.), I will still get to work from home (which I do now), and my boss would be a man I like and respect.
I have been with the company I work for presently for more than 10 years, but 3 years ago the company was acquired by a larger firm, off site, in the same industry. The former CEO, my former boss and the man who hired me and allowed me to leave the on site location to work from home, left the company through the acquisition.
While I still have strong ties and work daily with everyone who works in the factory I design for, I have zero connection with my current actual employers. They have never given me any sign that they understand, let alone appreciate the value I bring to the company. I barely have any contact with them what so ever. While this makes my "job" easier in many ways, it does nothing to endear them to me. The company is also so large, that while I do not BELIEVE they can replace me easily, I have never been given any indication that I have any true security within the new structure.
I like my job in a lot of ways, but there are a number of things that make my day needlessly stressful. I like a good portion of the people I work with at the factory, but the client base can be very difficult. While much of what I do still stimulates me, I OFTEN think I would do better in my "work" with a "change of scenery".
THE QUESTIONS:
Should I decide to take the job offer, having been with the company for so long, I intend to be very reasonable and respectful when discussing the timing of my departure. I am a very key player and a revenue generator for my company. One of only two who have a measurable positive financial impact on the business. This would lead most to believe that were I to make such a plan known to those who sign my cheques that they would genuinely make offers to keep me. Sadly, I would actually find this highly unlikely. My co-worker, the only other revenue maker, attempted to leave the company a year or two ago. He did not have an offer, he was just looking for something new. The current owners did nothing to convince him to stay. The management at the factory had to step in, and I think he was talked down with vague promises. All that said, they could still make me some kind of offer. What do I do if they do?
The man I am considering going to work for is a small, but successful business. If I "accept" his offer, I would feel terrible to turn it down after. Do I talk to my bosses before accepting the offer? What if i do not want to do that?
The people I work with, on site, will be hit with a great challenge should I leave. There is literally no one to replace me within the current structure. They do not pay me though, and have no influence on those that do. I work WITH these people. I do not even have a boss among them. Should my loyalty to them have any influence on this considering I have no loyalty to the actual employers?
I am not happy in my current position. I have not been for at least 4 years now. I am not sure that anything I could negotiate for would change this.
More money would be nice as I have not had a raise in 5 years.
Security, a "solid" contract, is something I do not have currently and will be getting with the new job.
If my current employers made these offers to me that were superior to the offer on the table, what am I supposed to do if I have already accepted the new job? The job offer as it stands now has little room for negotiation. Smaller business.
Would I be insulting the man looking to hire me by declining after accepting?
What if none of this will actually make me as happy as I could have been in the new job?
What if I stay and the security and communication NEVER actually improve?
The industry I am in now is also on a bit of a decline. It is business wide and kind of a trend, but I have heard rumors and seen signs that there is a distinct possibility that the factory I work for now could be shut down within a few years. They are building a new facility closer to the home office. There could very likely be no place for me after a change like that.
Any help with all these questions would be greatly appreciated!
This world needs a new philosophy. No more, "Could be worse..." I say SHOULD BE BETTER!
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Posts
I'm all for going to a new position if it means you will be just as better off or more without sacrificing stability, but you might want to make sure that the stability is there 100% if you do go. Asking for pay increase by having alternative positions available is the most common way of getting a promotion in most corporate positions, so don't feel bad about doing so. Keep in mind that you and your company are entering into a mutual agreement: they pay you and your provide them a service. If you feel you are providing more than the company is paying you for, and someone else is willing to do so, there is no reason to feel at all bad for making that understood and leaving.
If you do leave, though, don't burn bridges. Close out your open work, leave records for your successor, and be generally open and friendly about it. Slamming a door shut behind you is a terrible way to go about business because in most specialized positions you will likely encounter talent from your previous position at some point in your future career.
The only thing I think you have to consider is whether you are going to have more or less stability in the new position in comparison to the old one. If that is OK and you decide to move, be 100% sure, then tell the old people. If they do make a counteroffer and you accept it I'm sure the new prospective boss is going to be pissed, but he will also know that your life is yours and you don't have the obligation to make anyone any favors.
Take this with a grain of salt, since it is my very subjective opinion, but for me a job is nothing more than you selling your life so that someone else can get richer. It is therefore expected, as with any other product, that you will look for better prices for your life (less lifetime sold, more money, more benefits, learning possibilities...). Your boss is not doing you any favors, especially your old ones, so I think you should weigh the possibilities objectively and with a clear conscience.
PS: Awesome Alatriste avatar, Enc.
A million times this. Tell them nothing until you have a concrete job offer.
You can play hard ball and say "I have this definite offer and if you are unable to offer a better alternative in writing then I'm handing in my notice".
That way you can't be talked into staying with vague promises.
However, another way to look at it is by check list.
essentially, you are making the same amount financially, doing similar work, but doing it with less stress and with someone you like.
You are easily the best group on the internet! I have always felt welcome here, despite how infrequently I participate.
Counteroffers really depend on your company context. If everyone is personable and professional, as is usually the case in very large, HR handled structures, counteroffers are a fine and acceptable way to move pay forward. In smaller contexts, where direct burdens are placed upon the managing body, you have to watch out for resentment as they will be more inclined to pay you more short term to give the company time to find a cheaper replacement.
This would definitely be a concern of mine within the structure I work for.
Which, someone who just got a raise probably meets both those criteria. Generally you don't want to do it unless you're really on super good terms with your boss and the higher ups and you do really good work and get a ton of recognition and bonuses.
That is what I was a afraid of, but did not know why. That makes sense.
Generally I'd say get a firm offer in writing from new boss (or whatever medium you trust, some people I would take simply on their word) and then put in your notice. If you do not have a direct supervisor I'm not sure to whom you'd give notice, but it should be your supervisor/manager/VP/boss and possibly his boss as these people would know the direct impact of your leaving. When current company asks you why you're leaving you can air that (1) you aren't happy with your situation in the company and (2) you have a tendered offer. Personally I would leave it open ended for them to either tell you fine we'll miss you, or to open an exchange to figure out how they can make you happy, instead of making leaving a threat unless your demands are met.
You have no obligation to let your current employer know you have gotten or have accepted an offer. Any duty you might have would be limited to giving whatever notice they'd expect and conducting yourself professionally until you leave.
I don't really see the appeal of the new company (equal or less pay, and less work) other than a change of environment.
As a sidenote, the larger the company the easier it's going to be to replace you. Which isn't to say they've replaced you, but they have means to largely plug whatever gap your absence would cause in their business machine. No one is irreplaceable, though those who hold significant IP or large equity stakes can make their exit particularly difficult/painful.
The real perks of the new job would be "security". I have work with him for years, he is a customer at the moment and we have a very strong and open professional relationship. I "know" that working for him would be a long term venture. While I would do certain things to guaranty that before "signing" anything, I have no real concerns in this regard outside of the unforeseeable.
My current job, on the other hand, has left me feeling incredibly insecure since the new owners took over. My departure will be a challenge for them as there is no one who can EASILY fill my position from within, but I am not so delusional to think I am irreplaceable. The company would definitely move on without me. What worries me now is that they could consider that at any time now and have done nothing at all to show me that they wouldn't. Adding that into my other dissatisfactions really adds more appeal to moving on.
Great advice though! Thanks!
This is a good reason to be cautious of counter offers, but I think the fundamental problem is that people generally look for another job when they aren't happy with their current one and more money isn't going to solve that issue in most cases.
Don't accept the offer, and renege if your company offers to match it. think of it this way, you are unhappy at your current situation, why would them matching an offer to work somewhere you would be happier make you stay? Also, there are lots of polls done on people who accept matching offers, they end up leaving in 6-12 months anyway. it sounds like you'd have much more satisfaction if you go to work for your old boss.
Most of these are illegal in the US. If you have a non-compete you generally have to be rewarded when you leave or are let go. And there has to be a generally agreed reason why you can't work for them.
IE) you know the secret recipe for KFC's seasoning, but, if you quit or are fired, you have to be given a severance because your skills are no longer applicable in the employment market
Working for a customer is fine in most cases, so long as you didn't or won't use company resources in the future. Using knowledge is a thing because, well, it's stuff you learn in any job.
Dr. French, I am confused, did you mean going to work for my NEW boss? Why would I be happier in my current position?
It sounds like you want to take the job, but aren't completely decided. That's fine, think it over, but it sounds like leaving is what you want / are trying to talk yourself into. It's ok - it's hard to change jobs. If you do decide to take the new job, then take it and go. Don't even indicate to your current job that you are leaving until you have accepted the job and know your start date.
Be professional, don't burn bridges - put in your two weeks, work diligently to train your replacement, no 'fuck y'all' on your way out...but accept that once you leave, you aren't getting paid so their problems aren't your problem anymore.
Also, my take is that it's generally a bad idea to take an offer your employer makes to prevent you from leaving. Even if you get a hefty raise, the problems you have with your current employer aren't going to just disappear. You've indicated there isn't much security, so keep in mind getting a pay boost to prevent you from taking another job generally is going to put you higher on the 'cut first' list when / if they do a round of cuts.
Remember one thing - two weeks is all you owe them, and even then it's a courtesy. You don't need to give them more time for a transition, and if they were cutting your job they sure as shit wouldn't give YOU two weeks warning. If you can go to a job with people you like more, with the same pay and benefits, and do something more fulfilling you should do it.
What is life if not the pursuit of happiness?
Also fuck worrying about your colleagues if you left. Your personal needs so far outweigh the importance of theirs they aren't even on the same scale.
Sort of no.
You should do what you can before you leave to make the transition for those who remain easier, because that's the correct, sensible, and professional thing to do. After your notice period and when you are gone fielding an email or two of questions every so often is considerate, but doing anything more than general clarification is inappropriate of your old work to request.
Within reason, fortunately both I and my potential new employer are on the same page as you here. Do onto others and all that.
I have to agree. A lot of it is going to depend on the relationship you have with your old employer, and it sounds like he will still be dealing with them in some capacity. Burning bridges isn't a great idea. In general, answering a couple simple and straightforward questions at your own convenience isn't too much to ask.
When you leave an employer, lay out a method by which they can contact you - I'd recommend e-mail (a secondary personal e-mail, not your new work e-mail) - and don't field questions any other way. If they call, politely suggest they e-mail you so you can take a look and answer at your convenience. Stick to that, and don't hurry to get back to them with any answers. They aren't paying for you to hurry.
If an old employer has more than a couple questions, or asks for anything more than a general question / clarification, be polite but decline to answer. At best, direct them to someone else who might be able to answer / help them out / has the authority to decide on the answer. Remember, once they stop paying you, anything you do is a courtesy.
Of course you work out your notice doing everything possible to ease the transition for them as much as possible. You're a professional.
But you don't in any way consider your assessment of their ability to cope without you over your gain from moving.
By all means, be polite, professional, give notice, etc., but since you will spend the entirety of your life working, it might as well not be miserable.
Generally speaking unless money is a very large reason that you would consider leaving you shouldn't worry too much about counter offers as the problems that exist now will continue to exist. It's possible they would disappear for a bit if they were really worried about you leaving but they would eventually come back as that worry dies down.
Until you have the job offer with all the terms outlined and written down on paper I wouldn't even come close to making a decision. Benefits can be a huge deal and for myself anyways are a major chunk of my total compensation especially as I age and have children. Something to keep in mind is that usually you are given at least a few days to consider a job offer and they should be able to fully outline the terms at this point. If you really want to consider counteroffers you can let your current employer know that you are leaving and you will have until the agreed upon time that your prospective employer gave you to accept or deny their offer. This will give a bit of time for counteroffers, but once you accept an offer, yes the person that made it will be insulted and upset if you change your mind. It's pretty unprofessional to break your word like that.
One thing to consider, while you have a good relationship with your prospective employer that may change when you are an employee. Granted it sounds like you've worked with him before so he shouldn't pull a 180 but it's quite possible that the dynamic of your relationship would change. I've had some coworkers in my career that were initially easy to get along with and all right to work with on projects but complete shit when they've been put in a supervisor position over me as they no longer had to modify their behaviour and work habits so expected me to completely modify my own to their liking.
As for stability, who the fuck knows. Even government jobs in my country aren't really stable right now.
Overall it sounds like you're pretty unhappy with your current job so leaving might be for the best. To be honest even with good employers if you stay with the same employer for a long time, most people need a change of position or some other way to mix their work up every couple of years or they risk becoming pretty dissatisfied.
Some companies want you to transition your replacement, others don't care. Sometimes both happen at the same company. Regardless, assume that the day you give notice is your last day.
So if you need to do something, like backing up personal email, do it beforehand.
I work off site and could not practically be let go on the same day. I also have all of my files, they they will require. Definitely not a concern there.
Dr. French,
AH, that makes more sense. The guy hiring me is not my old boss though. Just a business associate.
Everything is now in motion and I am discussing terms/time line for me departure. I am going for the "make ME happy" road. This just started though so I have no counter offers as of yet. My better judgment and the great advice here says this will change nothing though.
And you're less likely to get fired at the new job.
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If they don't bite on it, and have a more "...k? so?" approach, just follow up by asking if they'd like a formal letter of resignation, and how much time they'd like you to give them to hire/train a replacement for your position.
Note: You may or may not want to have already accepted the new position (at least in principle) before having this conversation. I'd lean toward having already accepted it, myself. Businesses understand the value of retaining an employee, and it shouldn't look too bad on you if you tell the new job yes, then come back a day or two later and tell them that your current employer has decided to retain you.
Commonly two weeks is the standard resignation period, if they ask for more, and your new job can be put off, that's up to you, but definitely don't give them anything more than a month (and that's a long fucking time).
Thanks again for all the great advice here.