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The ["Gamer" Label] and Identity Negotiation Generally
Hamurabi
MiamiRegistered User regular
MiamiRegistered User regular
So we were talking a little about this in [chat] and I figured getting more voices in on this topic would be good. Specifically, the post sequence went:
But basically:
tl;dr: Do you jerks see any use for the "gamer" label? How else, if at all, do you identify yourselves?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXWiG2B4zk&feature=share&list=PLgVMk00I_zraGt9o1ax_rkaK06d65qd9s
This fucking guy.
A game letting you pretend to be a star quarterback does not mean you've mastered football guy.
Jesus.
I've never understood "gamer" as an identity. But whatever, I'm just a spoilsport.
Inquisitor wrote: »
I've never understood "gamer" as an identity. But whatever, I'm just a spoilsport.
Basically anyone who defines their life by a single thing is probably going to be annoying as hell. Whether it be a gamer, stoner, anime fan, whatever. Hell, even more healthy or normal things like fans of a sports team or an avid marathon runner can be annoying if that's all they ever talk about.
Edit: That's not to say it's always bad to use these terms. I will definitely call myself a gamer, but probably not within the first few minutes of meeting someone. Like anything, it's all about moderation and having a balanced personality rather than obsessions.
Or an atheist
Like oh hey we're both atheists we must have a lot in common!
I'm confused by gamer as a self-identity because I have exactly fuck-all in common with people who play shooters or racing games or sport sims or or or or.
Two points:
A) Playing video games is A Thing That I Do... sometimes. It doesn't define me, and I question whether it defines anyone.If it does define someone... is that good? The guy in the video argues he prefers video game reality to some false construction of "success" by American standards. That's legit, and I agree that The American Dream is just one outcome that I don't personally prefer, but that works for a lot of people. But then... he prefers naked, escapist consumerism as an alternative. Instead of, say, directing his life toward making the world a less shitty place for other people, his identity is based on buying and playing games that numb him to Reality. The choice isn't between the Rat Race and being a neckbeard whose existence is defined by a string of video game release dates; there're a lot more options.
The really tragic thing is that the guy in the video seems so sincere. Like, he could easily take that idealism and sincerity and dedicate it to helping others... but instead chooses to spend it making YouTube videos justifying consumerism.
(There's a lot of judgement going on in this post, but this's a minor pet peeve of mine.)
But basically:
- What does D&D think of the "gamer" label -- its usefulness, accuracy, popular connotations/potential stigma, etc?
- How do you identify yourself, period?
- Are one-word/short phrase identities -- "liberal/conservative," "soccer mom/dad," "intellectual," "Average Joe," etc even useful?
- Or is the oversimplification justified in a given context?
tl;dr: Do you jerks see any use for the "gamer" label? How else, if at all, do you identify yourselves?
Hamurabi on
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People whose primary hobby is videogames are a minority.
Like any minority, gamers form a culture as a foil against general society's low opinions.
Like any culture, a few gamer members turn activist, hoping to expand the culture and seek acceptance from the mainstream.
Activists lead to annoying radicals who claim some gamers aren't real gamers and those fake gamers are ruining the culture.
Yes, this.
I'm a gamer because I love games and eat, drink, breathe, sleep them. I do have something in common with anyone else who loves games. Even if they love games I hate. And that's not just a philosophical stance - in my work and personally life, I meet a really unusually high amount of strangers, and gaming is one of the ways that I can immediately break the ice and start bonding with someone. Even if they're a brony who only plays COD:MW. Which actually describes one of my mates, and is basically the only thing we do have in common.
I am not a gamer because of things associated with gaming that are not gaming. I am a sociable person who talks for a living, for example.
And I love other stuff too.
I used to think I didn't have a strong identity. Nowadays, I think that was a combination of self-hate and that mundane desire to be special, in this case by being beyond categorisation. Then I grew up, and now I know I'm not such a special snowflake.
Affirming and accepting your identity is healthy and quite normal. Like opinions and assholes, everybody has one. (or many - crohns joke).
Going through a process of self-ideation is also quite normal, and personally I think that process didn't really finish until I was about 40. If someone tells me they are beyond such labels, I'll probably think of them as immature. If they say 'I'm not a gamer, I just love games' I'll think it's either a semantics issue, or, yeah, they're still pretty immature.
I'm not arguing with you so much (or trying not to, anyway) - that's how you see things. Just trying to show that the way you look at things is not as straightforward as you think.
For example, I was raised Catholic, but my parents didn't believe. My community did. And I went to Catholic school. I am an atheist now, and resent Catholicism for the abuse I was given for being left-handed. I find Catholicism very odd, since I never experience it any more, but proper, Exorcist-level blasphemy does make me uncomfortable, and I am still ridden with free-floating Catholic guilt. And that's just the tip of my personal religion iceberg.
For me, the OP is really odd - if we don't describe ourselves with a mix of labels that are common to all humanity, then how do we describe ourselves? These concepts exist as single words because they are generally useful. That's what words are for.
Now, any given term might be contested, as I think left/right are at the moment, but is gamer a contested term? That hasn't been my experience. It sort of is in the media, who pretend that the multi-billion dollar global industry that is as old as civilisation doesn't really exist, but in my personal life, people don't usually argue about what gamer means.
I absolutely do not and would never self identify as a "gamer". Everyone plays games. It's not an accomplishment and shouldn't be any more of a defining trait than "TV viewer"
I grew-up in a small resort town at the edge of a lake. For 7 months of the year, the lake was frozen, the town was dead, and there were about 3 things for a teenager to do that weren't illegal:
1) Hockey
2) Fucking
3) Video games
I wasn't built for hockey & I wasn't a pretty face to go fuck, so video games it was. My interest in the hobby (and later in tabletop games) grew from there.
The video in the OP fucking creeps me out. If that is what being a 'gamer' means, then I am not a 'gamer'.
Edit - And it doesn't predetermine anything about them as people.
It's one thing when that label is part of a thing I have little choice over (like describing myself as "white" or "male"), and generally speaking those things have very clear meanings and understood implications. If I tell you I'm of one of those groups there's generally no doubt in your mind as to why it applies to me (because I was born that way) and what it means for me to be a part of it.
Other kinds of labels, ones based on political beliefs, hobbies, religious values, etc. those are a little more iffy. Because not only are those things highly subjective, I have no way of knowing what you think they mean. If I say I am liberal, Christian, or a browncoat (I'm none of those things, but theoretically speaking), then I am relying on what you think what those things mean and what you think of those labels.
Labels are only useful if they help people understand things. When a label is applied to a person, most notably by themselves about themselves, that label is only useful if it can be understood by others. If I say I'm a liberal, for example, and you have ideas in your head about what liberals are and what being a liberal means, and those things are not what I think and believe, then all I've created by identifying myself as a liberal is a stupid argument where you are going to assume I think things I don't and I'm going to be spending more time arguing with you about that than I am going to be addressing what I actually believe.
Moreover, you can know that a label probably applies to you in most common usages of it, but at the same time you're aware of how routinely it gets misused, or you're aware of the community or subculture that has embraced that label and how strongly they're associated with it. If you don't want to be lumped in with that subculture or that community, you're going to want to avoid using that label on yourself, even if otherwise you exhibit all the qualities and values that label has come to mean.
That latter bit is the salient reason I don't self-identify as a gamer. I don't like "gamer culture". I don't like "geek culture" in general, of which gamer culture is generally considered a part. I want to distance myself from those things. I want no part of them, and I don't want a person I am interacting with who knows I love video games to come to the conclusion I like "gamer culture". Because I don't.
So, I avoid the label. I don't call myself a gamer, and if someone else calls me one I try to politely correct them and indicate I don't want to be called that. I don't want to associate with gamer culture. I don't want to be subjected to gamer stereotyping. I just like video games, man, it's not gotta be a thing.
why on Earth would I opt to add more of those than absolutely necessary to be understood by others?
Because labels are extremely useful in social interaction. I don't have the time to give someone a lecture about just how unique of a snowflake I am, and I don't think they'd be that interested.
That said, if there was an emergency and someone was like OH MY GOD IS THERE A GAMER HERE I'd probably mention that I am good at Magic: the Gathering, play Civilization religiously, and am the best Mario Kart Double Dasher I know.
Bolded bit, no contention, that is absolutely true. I think that, if you're in an environment where you are speaking to someone at as much length as you want, you can correct perceptions at least. Otherwise, if the meeting is in passing, why identify to begin with?
I do have one point here though where I think you're stretching into a different topic - the dislike of micro-cultures. I think that's a radically different thing than label identification.
True, though "fan of the sport" is a label people bandy about. Mostly, it's a No True Scotsman thing.
I'll tell you what the problem with this line of thinking is. You see the label of "gamer" as value neutral. It is neither positive nor negative intrinsically, simply a statement of what a person likes to do for fun. You see it purely as a label that should indicate that you like games.
Except a lot of people don't see it as a value-neutral label. In fact, for some (myself included), self-identified "gamers" are not often the kind of people that are desirable social encounters. Is that an unfair generalization of a complex series of subcultures? Maybe, but it means to me that label isn't value neutral. It's a net negative.
Now, you might see that as my failing. You might say "Well fine then, I won't waste my time with you, because you're clearly so prejudiced against gamers that you're not the kind of person worth my time"
But look what you've done there; you haven't uncovered a crouching hater, hidden bigot. You've alienated a person that had you not jammed a label for yourself in there, would not think anything bad of you for your hobbies and interests.
A guy who hates gay people, for example, doesn't need the person he dislikes to call themselves gay for him to think shitty things of them. They could say "I am a dude who likes to have sex with other dudes", without the label of "gay", and the homophobic guy would still hate him.
This isn't necessarily the case for when people are rebuked over being self-identified gamers. If you say to me "I like video games", I can nod my head and say "Me too". If you say "I'm a gamer", almost as if you are fishing for me to react negatively, then I'm not going to think highly of your maturity or social skills, bro. In this case, it's not that I have some kind of animosity towards people who play video games. My animosity is towards "gamer culture", and I tend to assume that self-identified gamers are a part of that culture, especially when it's clear in their motives they're using the label as a conversational shorthand to determine if I'm worth their time or not.
Here's a pro-tip: If you're using self-identified labels to fish for whether or not you want to bother with someone, you're probably not exercising the greatest degree of social maturity.
yeah, "fan of the sport" is a no true scotsman to differentiate yourself from other people who say they're a fan but you don't think they really are
MMA and boxing fans are bad for this in particular in my experience
and I've seen "gamer" used similarly, although usually with an adjective like "hardcore" or "real"
And its awesome.
So from my perspective, there are cultures that form around gaming, but its going to vary from place to place of course.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
You just told me I'm not socially mature while openly admitting that anyone who calls themselves a gamer deserves your derision because you hate gamer culture. I think we're fundamentally at odds with what we define as being socially mature.
++political labels
This happens so much with politics, and I'm certainly guilty of it from time to time.
Yeah but wouldn't any conversation where you would say "I'm a gamer" be a conversation in which someone wants to know more about you?
The term gamer comes with baggage. "I like to play games" isn't any more of a lecture and avoids labels.
Yeah, political labels are a perfect example of this kind of thing run amok. If you self-identify as a this or that, and the person you are talking to doesn't, then you have now introduced a wildcard into the conversation.
Maybe they know exactly what you believe. Whether they agree with it or not is another matter, but the best case scenario for when you self-identify by a political label is that the person you are talking to uses that word to mean the same kind of beliefs and values you mean.
And that is an incredibly dodgy proposition to say the least, bro.
So, for me, when I hear someone self-identify as a "gamer", especially with some vehemence, I tend to assume they not only play video games but are an engrossed member of what can be called "gamer culture", and being I do not think positively of that thing, it's a label that serves to alienate me from someone.
I mean, if someone self-identifies as a libertarian, that doesn't de facto mean they believe what I think libertarianism means. It doesn't mean they intrinsically are a part of a libertarian movement or subculture that I understand or can identify. But it probably does, and given how poorly I think of what I know of and associate with libertarianism that is not putting a conversation off on a good foot.
Where you prefer to say "I like to play games," I prefer to say "I am a gamer." I don't see why that's so terrible. If you hate "gamer culture" so much, why aren't you putting the label on yourself and helping to change that stereotype by going against the negative baggage that comes with the label?
You're absolutely right, but I think the unspoken (or in Spawnbroker's case, explicitly stated) benefit to using the label is as a way to identify and alienate someone who might potentially judge you over something you like or think. It puts them in a zero-sum position; either they go with what they think that label to mean and risk appearing prejudiced if it's negative and not necessarily applicable to you, or they assume they don't really know what you mean and now have just as little information as before.
As a result, it handily exposes people who respond negatively to that label without needing to inquire why or how, or to actually put them into the position of learning anything positive about you.
Which is a behavior of questionable value, I feel.
But I don't go out of my way to identify as a gamer. If someone asks what I do, I will generally dive into my professional life or my creative side first, and THEN dig into hobbies and passions if the conversation continues.
Being a gamer beyond not being a label I put on myself willingly in conversation, is not my first, second, or even third choice for how I would define my existence.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Because it's not my responsibility nor is it to my benefit. I don't want to be a part of gamer culture, I don't want to be able to call myself a gamer. I don't sit here, wringing my hands, going "Aw dang if only all those other guys didn't ruin gamer for me! I should try to reclaim it!"
No. They can have it. It's not a label I want or need nor is it one I feel needs reclaiming or defending. It's not a label I could use to differentiate myself from others in any meaningful or positive way anyhow, and if a label isn't doing that it has no value to me.
If gamers want that label not to have a negative association with it for non-gamers, then that is the responsibility of those gamers to do something about it. I'm not a gamer nor do I wish to be, so it's not my fight to have.
football culture has more participation than politics in like half the union, and don't get me started on gun culture
If only we could make nra member or football fan to be as much of a scarlet letter as being a gamer
sure
for football fans
that's my point
people absolutely describe themselves as football fans, hockey fans, etc.
but I don't really encounter people who generically call themselves "sports fans" as a comparable response to people who call themselves "gamers"
mostly because if you find a fan of sports, no matter how many they like there will usually be a major sport or two they do not care for or watch and they will tell you as such
I, for example, don't like cricket
It can set you up for a fruitless discussion even if, on a wide swath of individual points, you probably agree. Me, the Conservative, and John Doe the Environmentalist are going to have a lot of baggage to get past before we ever have a chance to discover how closely we align on specifics.
I love guns. I absolutely cannot stand any gun club I've ever been exposed to, every single one was a bunch of guys with small dicks practically masturbating to the thought of someone breaking into their house so they can shoot someone.
I feel exactly the same way about gamer culture, love the medium, love pretty much every genre, love talking about games with people. It's extremely rare I'll meet someone on the basis of being a gamer first and end up liking them at all though, usually it immediately devolves into "OH YOU PLAY LEAGUE OF LEGENDS TOO, WHAT LEVEL ARE YOU? LOL R U EVEN RANKED BRO" when I don't play their game exclusively or are on the same level as them
Edit: this is basically a conversation I had at school the other day when a passerby noticed me playing lol on my laptop during my class break, instead of "oh wow you like lol too!" it was immediately "what rank are you?!" in a manner like, he was worried I thought I was better at lol than him or something? He wanted me to whip out my epeen so he could judge it
Are you arguing that there should be more specific labels we should append for those of us that enjoy playing games as a hobby? How specific do we need to go? If football fan is enough, why is sports fan not enough?
What if there is someone, like myself, who enjoys literally every video game they have ever played, and doesn't restrict themselves to a single genre of game? Should I be forced to defend the gamer label from those who put negative baggage on it, even though I myself don't participate in that negativity? Why should I care about what the label means at all?
Edit: I'm not trying to be snarky, I am just seeking clarification on all of these points.