RE: The fight against PAX Badge Counterfeiters
LesStewart
Barrie, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
Barrie, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
I'm watching the extra scenes on the Third Season of Penny Arcade the series, and during the Enforcer episode, Robert Khoo mentions that Penny Arcade is trying to crackdown on PAX Badge Counterfeiters by suing them over trademark infringement (illegal use of the logo; a pretty nifty solution considering the pitfalls of class-action lawsuits).
I was just curious if there has been any progress with this initiative.
Considering the rather concerning numbers Khoo cited (PAX 2011: ~3,000-5,000 counterfeit passes) and the massive impact this has on the PAX experience, I hope that fight is going well. I just returned from PAX East, and unfortunately, I and several people on the forums noticed a substantive number of attendees walking around the BCEC with passes from 2012. I always let Enforcers know when I could, but considering the breadth of the problem (counterfeits/ sneaking in) and the huge scope of the convention, a lot of people were taking from the PAX community without giving back.
I'm completely certain that this is being dealt with conscientiously; just let us know what we can do to help.
I was just curious if there has been any progress with this initiative.
Considering the rather concerning numbers Khoo cited (PAX 2011: ~3,000-5,000 counterfeit passes) and the massive impact this has on the PAX experience, I hope that fight is going well. I just returned from PAX East, and unfortunately, I and several people on the forums noticed a substantive number of attendees walking around the BCEC with passes from 2012. I always let Enforcers know when I could, but considering the breadth of the problem (counterfeits/ sneaking in) and the huge scope of the convention, a lot of people were taking from the PAX community without giving back.
I'm completely certain that this is being dealt with conscientiously; just let us know what we can do to help.
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The counterfeit issue, as far as I know (which is only with what is public knowledge), has been *massively* reduced since the crazy Prime 2011 problem.
I know quite a few people who would simply say they lost their badge, get an extra, and give it to their friend and/or sell it.
I don't know the expense/liability issues, but why not have an official method to transfer a badge between people so we could buy badges from others without hitting craigslist/ebay/etc and the shady folks that exist there?
I can't imagine that happens on a scale that would cause an issue, especially compared to the guys who will list 100 badges on eBay or who stand around outside the convention center with an entire deck of badges.
At this point, it would not surprise me if the #1 issue with badges is people scamming the reg folks saying they "lost" theirs, or it didn't come in the mail.
An official transfer method would be ideal, but I don't think they are currently equipped (read: not enough manpower) to handle something like that.
Keep in mind the topic of this thread is badge counterfeiting. There's a whole nice large thread in the Debate and Discourse subforum about registration methods that I believe also covers things like anti-scalping mechanisms. Also I believe PAX is confident that the level of scalping has decreased by quite a bit (by organized parties anyhow... not necessarily random people buying and reselling).
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Every other convention that I've frequented does a different design for their badge each year. It seems like a really easy solution for one of the problems.
By the by, last year's badges for Prime were different than they'd ever been.
Changing the badges definitely helps fight counterfeiting, but the only real ways to stop it is to refuse to buy questionable passes and reporting the people selling them. Hopefully Khoo's added measure really locks down the issue.
printing pictures will not work. as long as there is one legitimate badge that does not have the picture of the legitimate owner, it invalidates its own usefulness. Same for printing the name.
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The only problem I see with that, is that the person who would be wearing a counterfeit badge probably is probably none other than a die hard fan like you and me. They only wanted to go because they love PAX. They might not have been aware that their badge was counterfeit. I mean, what if the counterfeiter made a really decent fake? How would they know? Sure someone desperate may just buy one and look the other way because they really wanted to go. But if a person who wanted to buy a second hand that wasn't fake, came across a very viable looking fake, they could scrutinize it all the way and probably still end up getting it because it looked legit. All because they wanted to go and couldn't get tickets. I couldn't blame them for that, I'd probably think about it (and then get dissuaded by the sordid cost of second hand passes). And I'm sure PAX probably doesnt want to share an image detailing all the counterfeit measures before the event because some jerk could use that information to create a better looking fake.
I think counterfeit badges is a hard subject. You could tighten the security all you want, but the counterfeiters will still find a way, and PAX will still lose some money over it, and some fans will still be disappointed. Not sure how you can stop it, but I'm all for indictment or suing or other disciplinary measure against those that are caught making/selling counterfeit badges.
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That. It's the same reason why PA themselves doesn't just sell more badges to meet the demand, and instead has to resort to per-person sales limits and other things like that. WSCC can only hold so many people, and the people with counterfeit badges aren't accounted for in that figure.
All it would take is a purchase verification system which can be handled whilst everyone is queued to get in. Not impossible. [Furious scratchy-scratchy of pencil on paper] Some fairly basic architecture would allow this to happen, with 70,000 attendees at PAX Prime 2011, and a conservative estimate of 1.2 tickets per purchase that is 58,334 database transactions to verify in the queue. Say, 100 Enforcers handing out badges and doing the verification at a rate of 1 every 20 seconds is 3 hours to hand out all the badges. PAX queues are longer than that, and this assumes that all the badges get handed out on the first day (which obviously doesn't happen, only the 4 day and Friday badges would go.)
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Not to claim I am an expert in all things, but as an enforcer who has worked a bit of registration in my time, i can assure you that your 20 second estimate is off by an order of magnitude.
They could always go with RFID tags in the badges and just point the readers and have them go confirmed or negative. There are even more exotic solutions PAX could implement but this is one that could be cheap and is effective.
It can be done. The key would be in reducing the amount of information the Enforcer has to deal with. If it can be boiled down to "Hi, can I see your receipt please?" "Here you go." [Scan receipt] [Scanner response 3x 4-day badges] [Rummage, dig, etc] "Here's your badges, enjoy PAX. Next!"
What that requires is a receipt which can be read by a machine (not difficult) that corresponds to a db entry (still not hard) which can then be voided once the badges are handed out, avoiding duplicates (hard? nope). That way the Enforcer doesn't need to check the names, addresses, shoe size, etc of the attendee. Machine goes beep, badges are handed out, and on they move.
Whilst I'm not an expert in PAX, I do quite a bit of systems design in this area. Given a small budget, this is achievable with 100 Enforcers. Given a slightly larger budget, this could be an automated system that only requires a few Enforcers to babysit the machines for the more technologically baffled PAX attendees (which I doubt will be many.) If you have ever used a ticket machine at an airport or train station, or a self-serve checkout you can deal with this kind of thing.
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RFID would be one option for telling a real badge from a fake, but requires you expend time, money and effort in checking. The counterfeit badges are only able to exist because the badge design is known well ahead of time. By eliminating the need for the badges to be posted out you remove the advance notice counterfeiters require to make enough fake products to be profitable.
The bottleneck now becomes handing out all the badges before PAX starts, which I suspect is the main reason they mail badges in the first place. That is why I suggested the receipt system to make handing them out quicker than in the past. Naturally this has it's own drawbacks if paper receipts are used, but paper isn't the only option. I can think of at least two different alternatives, and whilst this requires the attendee to remember to bring the receipt, it isn't overly burdensome. No more than "please remember to wear pants."
Every PAX attendee will go to PAX in person. Counterfeiters do not. In-person pickup and badge obfuscation removes the lead time. Now, it could be argued that the 4-day badges could be made during PAX. But that is where the more traditional counterfeit countermeasures come in. Complex designs, flourescent and/or UV inks, "Orion" marks would make it much harder to the point where it simply isn't worth the time to try and fake unless you have access to a professional press. This is where your "liquor store" analogy comes in. Human verification of the badges. It is a separate system to Badge Handout, but I have a few ideas here too. RFIDs you have mentioned, but as before there are several alternatives.
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You'd be amazed at the number of people who still have trouble remembering the pants...
If nothing is mailed out, nothing gets lost. Right now you get a confirmation email with a ticket purchase receipt. That's how you picked up lost badges in person. Now, if everyone does that, you need a faster system. And that's what I proposed.
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Depending on requirements, it can be handheld and wireless, static and wired or static and wireless. The one thing it can't be is handheld and wired. Since that would mean long cables for everyone to trip over and get tangled up in. (Handheld in this case means the Enforcers wandering the lines, giving out badges.)
But yes, a secure system would be the default. Without getting too deep into database design theory, the Front-End scanner would simply check Receipt Number "ar3r86uy63n5le68rb8" and get a return of "3x Friday Badges". In the low-budget system, the Enforcer then hands out the badges. In the automated system, the badges are dispensed. No need for any personal information to be exchanged between the Front-End and Back-End, or stored on the scanner, or shown on the receipt. So no credit card info to be snaffled, or stalkeriffic scenarios.
With the number of 70,000 purchases as the fuzzy figure to work with, the Receipt Number should have 700 million combinations or more. That makes random guessing unlikely to pick out a legitimate RN, and even brute forcing it would be tough going. I think the PAX staff would question why someone kept scanning fistfuls of receipts and getting errors. That example RN has 36^19 combinations, and can be easily translated into something machine readable. Hard for a counterfeiter to beat that aspect. The transmission between Front-End and Back-End can be encrypted in the usual fashion. That just leaves the Front-End devices, which should be looked after like any other hardware. Handhelds kept in trusted hands, static machines watched for tampering.
Once the badges are handed out, then you come back to the traditional counterfeiting methods and the ways to defeat them. But with a greatly reduced time window, their job is a lot harder. Given the prolific rate of Mike Krahulik, different badge designs for each PAX isn't a bizarre request. Even a different design per badge isn't that much. I recommend that the 4-day badges are split into 4 single day badges, just to eliminate the high value target that is the 4-day badge. How high-tech they want to get with the badges to prevent counterfeiting is up to them, from simple quality constraints (since counterfeits are almost always lower quality due to budget) to things like UV ink, Orion marks, etc.
Putting the Receipt Number on the badge would require printing them upon collection: not impossible since a simple inkjet head can add unique information over the top of the image, but this would add to the time required to collect the badge by a few seconds.
All this would make the most vulnerable part of the system the procedure for lost badges, as well as traditional theft of badges from attendees.
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Having spent nearly a decade in retail, I can tell you the repsonse to 'can I see your receipt?' often takes a couple of minutes. Even without worrying about the guy who has to re-load the receipt on his phone because he stopped to play a mobile game (something I can easily see in the PAX crowd), you have misplaced receipts, buried receipts, wrinkled unscannable receipts, broken & glitchy phones not displaying correctly- and any of these people could end arguing with staff when told they can't be admitted yet. All of these can add up to crazy wait times, and we're still assuming the scanning equipment functions properly the whole time too.
The mailing system keeps all of these pickup issues largely confined to non-PAX time, so by the time it opens, the handful of people who still don't have their badges can pick them up quickly, because they've already been told what to expect on site.
I'm not against chipping badges, but that should be for spot checks- if an enforcer suspects you have a fake, he scans it, it gives a unique badge ID and checks a database to make sure said badge exists in the PAX system. You could program special information, like original purchaser or if a badge was given as a replacement, to help better identify fraud (or just to check out the stats to try and find more places to tweak.) Couple that with some of the other anti-fraud measures, like UV marks and holograms, and it might scare off all but the most dedicated fakers.
Also, its very amusing to me that you all seem to be asking for yet another line at PAX. I figured there were already plenty.
A meaty fleshbag of a problem, sure. But if we ditch the handheld "budget" option, the automated system reduces the interaction time. Much like you would expect people to treat the actual Badge with care, if they print out the receipt rather than carry it on their phone, they should treeat the receipt with care.
Yes, both these are true. But the mailing system is central to the counterfeiting problem, because the two week lead time allows them to circumvent any of the printing countermeasures and run off the large batch required for a profit. Eliminate the lead time and you have largely eliminated the counterfeiting problem.
That does create the new problem of handing out Badges on the first day of PAX (Friday Badges and 4 Day will be the highest number, I am assuming) but this is a much more controllable problem. Worst case scenario, you need to hand out 70,000 Badges and Badge Sets. PAX opens at 10am. I believe the first person in the queue on the PA Series video says he got there at 5am. So a 5 hour window, plus you can allow pickup the previous evening. Say, 3pm to 9pm. Give the Enforcers some drinking time. 11 hours, absolute worst case. Probably 100 machines should do it.
Now, the cost of these machines, the development, etc can be paid for by eliminating the cost of mailing out the Badges. If the machines are in place for 3 years they will pay for themselves. 5 if you want to be absolutely certain.
Acutally I am against RFID, simply on cost. Much easier to do the Verification part of Badges by sight for people, and by barcode/qr code for machine readers. Use a high quality printing system for the main part of the Badge (the picture of Gabe, Tycho, Div, or whoever) and a simple inkjet printer in the Badge Kiosk to add the barcode when it dispenses the Badges.
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So if you don't like the use of Enforcers in the "budget" option, we go with the automated Kiosks. Only a handful of Enforcers needed to babysit them a la self-checkouts at supermarkets.
As for it being "another line", the line waiting to enter PAX already exists, and people spend up to 5 hours in it. So why not have them use a minute of that time to pick up the Badges? You arrive at the convention centre, use the Kiosk and join the queue. As of right now, you arrive at the convention centre, and join the queue.
And the problem of counterfeiters isn't just a "handful" of badges. I've seen numbers saying 3000-5000 at PAX 2011, and whilst PA have "taken steps" (whatever they may be) to combat the problem, it still exists in a number measured in the thousands. That's enough to violate the fire code and get PAX closed to legitimate Badge holders until some people leave. That's enough to cause egress problems in the event of an actual fire.
This is mainly about Counterfeiters. Scalpers are a different issue, as are Thieves (stories are told of people having Badges pulled from their necks). But it is possible to build a system that with combat all three, whilst keeping it affordable. It won't be 100% foolproof, but that isn't the goal. A safe isn't designed to be uncrackable. It is designed to take a thief long enough that they are either discovered or discouraged. And so with any system to combat these issues. Take away the lead time from Counterfeiters; make it unprofitable for Scalpers to buy, collect and resell tickets; deter Thieves by having Badges individually marked.
If Scalpers had to collect tickets in person, they would look suspicious collecting bundles of tickets. They would waste a lot of time queuing repeatedly. They would lose their profit margin having Runners collect tickets for them.
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The cost:benefit ratio has now been totally fucked and things are no better than before for a vast majority of attendees.
There's a reason why things are the way they are. There are large costs to actual feasible other systems (like SDCC for example) that PAX does not want to pay. Many of these costs are not monetary, and one very large one is "attendee experience".
That is a very fun loophole, but can be countered by employing some existing methods used by cinemas, where you insert the credit card used to buy the ticket. That can either augment the system with the barcode, or eliminate the need for a verifying code altogether. Now you just need to bring your wallet, which you were bringing anyway.
The point of this is to show that it is possible to make it harder for counterfeiters, without drastically increasing the burden on either PAX or the attendees. Plenty of ways to do this exist, it isn't new. Someone already mentioned Louis CK's system to beat scalpers which largely consists of what PA did: not announcing the sale time in advance. There's that lead time thing again.
The other part is enforcing the ability to cull the marked up tickets on stubhub et al.
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