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[TRENCHES] Thursday, April 4, 2013 - Strategem

GethGeth LegionPerseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
edited April 2013 in The Penny Arcade Hub
Strategem


Strategem
http://trenchescomic.com/comic/post/strategem

One of “Those” People

Anonymous

So I recently decided to give online dating a try due to my increasing lack of free time.  I made up a profile and everything.  The profile included what I did for a living. (Software QA)  I’ve worked in QA for almost ten years with the majority of my experience being in game test and test case documentation.

So I have a first date with this one girl who seems really cool.

She’s pretty, into video games, a fellow homeowner, and she has a good sense of humor.  The date is going well, we’re talking, laughing, and she seems to be into me.  At one point I start talking about the game
I’m currently working on and she seems surprised.  She suddenly gets quiet, stops really responding to my attempts at conversation, and just seems uncomfortable all around.

Me:  “Hey, is everything alright?  Seems like something is bothering you?”
Her:  “Well your profile said you worked in software, I didn’t realize you were a game tester.”
Me (Surprised):  “Is there something wrong with that?  I thought you enjoyed video games.”
Her:  “Well, I’ve dated game testers before and I don’t think I could be with another one.”
Me:  “Oh I see, you’re one of those people.”
Her (Angry and Annoyed):  “What do you mean, “those” people?
Me:  “Well, I mean people who like to categorize others but don’t like it when it’s done to them.”

Needless to say the rest of the date didn’t go so well and we never saw each other again.


Geth on

Posts

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Observe the screen.
    04/04/2013 - Anonymous
    As a newly hired junior programmer I was given the esteemed responsibility of shepherding a content pack for our recently released game through platform certification. It was intended to be a pretty simple job that a newbie like me could take care of all on my own.

    Unfortunately for me the platform certification team liked our game so much they happily ignored a large number of bugs and decided to rectify this when the patch required to support the content pack was submitted. They found saved game bugs, sound, language and a whole slew of networking issues. A real crash course in the certification process.

    To top it off we didn’t have an internal QA team so I had to deal directly with the publishers QA. They would take a single certification issue and turn it into as many bug reports as was humanly possible, bordering on the ridiculous. If a button state was wrong in an English play session, they would report the same bug for French, German, Italian, etc.

    The publishers QA also had a habit of not explaining in any detail what undesired behavior was being reported and instead as the final repo step they placed a single word: Observe. Whenever I read that word it made my blood boil.

    Six months of ‘observing’ and being bounced again and again by certification, I was so pleased when it finally shipped. Much later our own QA team would occasionally throw an ‘Observe the screen’ into reports just to get a reaction out of me.

    "excuse my French
    But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
    - Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
  • SecretagentmanSecretagentman Registered User regular
    How dare a QA team be thorough!

    PSN: matter_ic
    Professional forum lurker
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Thorough is one thing, not explaining what is happening that shouldn't is another.

  • ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    Isaac looks like he's put on some weight.

  • twestermtwesterm Lewisville, TXRegistered User regular
    Ah, the joys of being a junior developer and thinking "Observe" is the worst thing you'll ever see in a bug report. :)

    Just wait until your whole studio is sharing a single login and you receive a vague bug that has been continuously passed around by about five different people that leave no names with their comments so you have no idea who assigned you the bug, who has already seen the bug, and who to talk to about the bug, you only see "fix this" as the last comment. Then you can talk about infuriating bug reports.

    Also, wait until you get an outside QA team whose first language isn't English, though they're less infuriating and more fun because you get to turn trying to figure out what they mean into a fun guessing game.

  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Thorough is one thing, not explaining what is happening that shouldn't is another.

    Yeah that's ridiculous. The "write a bug for every language version" thing I am mixed about - on the one hand, yeah, thorough is good. On the other, you are creating clutter which does nothing but piss off the programmers tasked to fix the bug. "Hey, here are ten duplicate bugs to work on!" Prevents other stuff from being fixed while you are tracking down if your one fix also fixed these other 9 bugs. Just put all that stuff in the same bug report.

    Also, when I read this:
    To top it off we didn’t have an internal QA team
    My immediate reaction: Ubisoft? :P

    Warlock82 on
    Switch: 2143-7130-1359 | 3DS: 4983-4927-6699 | Steam: warlock82 | PSN: Warlock2282
  • theResetButtontheResetButton Registered User regular
    twesterm wrote: »
    Also, wait until you get an outside QA team whose first language isn't English, though they're less infuriating and more fun because you get to turn trying to figure out what they mean into a fun guessing game.

    "Please do the needful."

    Keep honking: I'm also honking.
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    "Left as an exercise to the reader."

  • Bob_LoblawBob_Loblaw Registered User regular
    "Please do the needful."

    I get that all the time. Nice to know it's not just me.

  • Achenar1759Achenar1759 Registered User new member
    The format, level of detail, number, etc... in a bug report is all regulated by QA leads, management and/or production. If QA is too thorough: the department is get in trouble by dev team. If the department is not through enough or passes up entering an issue at the request of dev team: QA gets grilled by production.

    The choice to submit a separate ticket for each language is a fairly common one since typically Euro/Asian/etc builds are all themselves separate builds. Each are sent to a different division of a console's cert team and some are more strict on fixes than others.

    Simply writing "observe" is typically unacceptable, however it's likely a pretty obvious issue in those cases. I have seen bug reports bounced back and forth on some of the most obvious issues.

    1. pick up crate object located at coordinates ___________
    2. Place crate object in front of guard npc X at coordinates _________
    3. Observe T-posing NPC

    Attached screenshots have been resent with little more change than a big red circle around the only NPC on screen. Only then is the bug marked fixed for the next build with a note: "Oh.."

  • Achenar1759Achenar1759 Registered User new member
    The format, level of detail, number, etc... in a bug report is all regulated by QA leads, management and/or production. If QA is too thorough: the department is get in trouble by dev team. If the department is not through enough or passes up entering an issue at the request of dev team: QA gets grilled by production.

    The choice to submit a separate ticket for each language is a fairly common one since typically Euro/Asian/etc builds are all themselves separate builds. Each are sent to a different division of a console's cert team and some are more strict on fixes than others.

    Simply writing "observe" is typically unacceptable, however it's likely a pretty obvious issue in those cases. I have seen bug reports bounced back and forth on some of the most obvious issues.

    1. pick up crate object located at coordinates ___________
    2. Place crate object in front of guard npc X at coordinates _________
    3. Observe T-posing NPC

    Attached screenshots have been resent with little more change than a big red circle around the only NPC on screen. Only then is the bug marked fixed for the next build with a note: "Oh.."

  • twestermtwesterm Lewisville, TXRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Warlock82 wrote: »

    Well, at least you look awesome the next day when the bug report gets sent out and you closed an extra ten bugs. :)

    twesterm on
  • Fatty McBeardoFatty McBeardo Registered User regular
    Whoever is drawing the strips lately is really into showing the backs of heads.

  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    Whoever is drawing the strips lately is really into showing the backs of heads.

    Well, it's not a stage or a camera so that "rule" isn't really applicable? idk.

    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    The choice to submit a separate ticket for each language is a fairly common one since typically Euro/Asian/etc builds are all themselves separate builds. Each are sent to a different division of a console's cert team and some are more strict on fixes than others.

    I would think it would typically be the same codebase with different language files. Which might be different builds but it seems like something you'd fix in one place and the change would propagate to all builds (except in the rare cases where the bug is WITH the language files or something otherwise language-specific).

    Switch: 2143-7130-1359 | 3DS: 4983-4927-6699 | Steam: warlock82 | PSN: Warlock2282
  • plki76plki76 Redmond, WARegistered User regular
    twesterm wrote: »
    Ah, the joys of being a junior developer and thinking "Observe" is the worst thing you'll ever see in a bug report. :)

    Just wait until your whole studio is sharing a single login and you receive a vague bug that has been continuously passed around by about five different people that leave no names with their comments so you have no idea who assigned you the bug, who has already seen the bug, and who to talk to about the bug, you only see "fix this" as the last comment. Then you can talk about infuriating bug reports.

    Also, wait until you get an outside QA team whose first language isn't English, though they're less infuriating and more fun because you get to turn trying to figure out what they mean into a fun guessing game.

    My favorite bug report ever was (and this is a direct quote, I've committed it to memory)
    "When there is not anything there is a focus at the time"

    I read that and just stopped. It was beautiful. It was so deep and meaningful. It was a koan. I must have just stared at the screen for a good 15 minutes contemplating the universe after that.

  • CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    Not to stir the pot a little, but I'd go with agree/disagree.

    "Observe" is not, as @Achenar1759 noted, very useful. We tend to use the format Expected Result/Actual Result at the close of our repro steps , because the goal is to make the failing behaviour explicit for the poor sod doing the work. Otherwise you just have to go through a round of emails to do that anyway.

    Localisation, on the other hand, is a bit tricky. If a button state is wrong in some languages, and not in others, then it may be worthwhile going to that level of granularity. Or the studio may have requested that for their reporting. Or someone may be looking to pad their bug count before the next pay review (and yes, I know it's a crappy metric, but there we are). But I can see good, valid reasons for tracking at that level.

    Personally, I'd have configured the bug tracker to allow inputting of versions/languages where the problem was observed into the issue, allowing for better reporting without clogging the tracker. But that one's on the Lead/Managers...

  • twestermtwesterm Lewisville, TXRegistered User regular
    plki76 wrote: »

    My favorite bug report ever was (and this is a direct quote, I've committed it to memory)
    "When there is not anything there is a focus at the time"

    I read that and just stopped. It was beautiful. It was so deep and meaningful. It was a koan. I must have just stared at the screen for a good 15 minutes contemplating the universe after that.

    My favorite has always been (and I use to have this hanging on my wall when I had a wall): "The blown up car is party inside the intact car"

  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    twesterm wrote: »

    My favorite has always been (and I use to have this hanging on my wall when I had a wall): "The blown up car is party inside the intact car"

    My favorite will always be "Crack in wall move when you move"

    Dev response: "This is called parallax mapping. It's a feature."

  • ShponglistShponglist Registered User new member
    edited April 2013
    If any issue is missed by QA, they are hammered for it by Production and the higher ups, especially if it's something that causes the title to get points against it in certification testing. When it comes to cert testing it is always better to have multiple bugs in about a language specific issue to ensure that each language is covered. There have been multiple cases in my experience when a change to one language is not applied to another, and in cases of certification and button art/state, that's something that WILL be flagged in certification and can lead to the title having enough points to be rejected.
    If it comes down to having ten bugs about a button state in each different language or getting points in cert testing because the issue wasn't reported, QA should enter multiple bugs every time. Not only does this ensure that each language is looked at by the developer but is also ensures that the tester regressing the fixes will check each language specifically.

    Shponglist on
  • vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    There are appropriate times to do multiple reports for various versions of the same issue, and times where it's not appropriate.

    I never get upset when someone files those sorts of bugs to me because, well, it's literally as easy as clicking 'resolve' once I've fixed the core issue, and I'd much rather get ten bugs that are all basically the same issue than have someone assume they're all the same issue and then we miss something.

    Part of why I think every dev should do a stint in QA - you don't appreciate the pile of shit they have to deal with unless you've dealt with it yourself, and I think it makes you a better developer.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • theResetButtontheResetButton Registered User regular
    vsove wrote: »
    Part of why I think every dev should do a stint in QA - you don't appreciate the pile of shit they have to deal with unless you've dealt with it yourself, and I think it makes you a better developer.

    Similarly, I think every person should do a shitty, customer-facing job at some point so you know not to be a dick to the minimum wage employees bringing your food or ringing you out.

    Keep honking: I'm also honking.
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular

    Similarly, I think every person should do a shitty, customer-facing job at some point so you know not to be a dick to the minimum wage employees bringing your food or ringing you out.

    Man, pretty much guaranteed. Is someone being a raging asshole to a waiter/waitress? 97% chance they were never a server.

    What is this I don't even.
  • SlaignSlaign Registered User regular
    Perhaps, but I've heard from many sources that former waiters are some of the hardest people to wait on. They have stronger personal perceptions of what your job and duties are, and how to do them right.

    I know that when I go to a restaurant with my brother, her often comments on the wait staff's failure to fill our drinks before they get completely empty. This is something I don't notice unless it drags on for a ridiculous amount of time, but he was a waiter who worked up to restaurant manager and one of his standards of service was to never let a drink run dry without offering refreshment.

    I think there's probably something to be said for the idea that a former waiter might be more critical of wait staff's performance.

    That said, I don't think my brother would ever confront a waiter or waitress about these perceived shortcomings. He certainly wouldn't be an asshole about it. But he very well might leave a reduced tip if he doesn't feel the service was up to his standard, and his standard is pretty high. To him, if he could offer excellent service when he did it, they have no excuses.

    Anyway, about the comic: I thought this was one of the funniest Trenches strips. The idea of Isaac immediately having a hacksaw at the ready is great. Also "One and done, son." is priceless.

  • The Good Doctor TranThe Good Doctor Tran Registered User regular
    Thorough reporting: usually good.

    Not writing a commensurately thorough repro guide: always bad.

    LoL & Spiral Knights & MC & SMNC: Carrington - Origin: CarringtonPlus - Steam: skdrtran
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Slaign wrote: »
    Perhaps, but I've heard from many sources that former waiters are some of the hardest people to wait on. They have stronger personal perceptions of what your job and duties are, and how to do them right.

    I know that when I go to a restaurant with my brother, her often comments on the wait staff's failure to fill our drinks before they get completely empty. This is something I don't notice unless it drags on for a ridiculous amount of time, but he was a waiter who worked up to restaurant manager and one of his standards of service was to never let a drink run dry without offering refreshment.

    I think there's probably something to be said for the idea that a former waiter might be more critical of wait staff's performance.

    That said, I don't think my brother would ever confront a waiter or waitress about these perceived shortcomings. He certainly wouldn't be an asshole about it. But he very well might leave a reduced tip if he doesn't feel the service was up to his standard, and his standard is pretty high. To him, if he could offer excellent service when he did it, they have no excuses.

    Anyway, about the comic: I thought this was one of the funniest Trenches strips. The idea of Isaac immediately having a hacksaw at the ready is great. Also "One and done, son." is priceless.

    If your brother leaves a reduced tip for not having his drink topped off every single time, he's just an asshole.

    One entire side of my family works in food service. They're more likely to leave a sizeable tip when the service is slightly sub-par, because they'll usually see that the server has been slammed with five group tables that probably AREN'T going to tip, and they know what a shitty end of night it is when you've worked your ass off and cash out time comes short.

    What is this I don't even.
  • SlaignSlaign Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    My brother isn't an asshole. Far from it. He's a hell of a lot less an asshole than me. He's a hell of a lot less an asshole than someone who calls someone they don't know an asshole based on an anecdote. He just knows what good service is and expects people to do their jobs. Obviously if the restaurant is packed he'll notice that and be more understanding, having experienced it. But that's not always the case, not all wait staff are good at being attentive, and the difficulties of being wait staff don't forgive doing a lackluster job when it's perfectly within your power to do better.

    The point is, he's much more likely to notice when the wait staff isn't doing it's job. He'll notice when he looks around at the table and sees all of our drinks low or empty, where as I'll probably only notice once it inconveniences me personally.

    Slaign on
  • plki76plki76 Redmond, WARegistered User regular
    If your brother leaves a reduced tip for not having his drink topped off every single time, he's just an asshole.

    One entire side of my family works in food service. They're more likely to leave a sizeable tip when the service is slightly sub-par, because they'll usually see that the server has been slammed with five group tables that probably AREN'T going to tip, and they know what a shitty end of night it is when you've worked your ass off and cash out time comes short.

    I used to be a server and normally leave a 20% tip on the after-tax amount (makes my math easy), but I will absolutely reduce the tip if my water glass gets empty (barring extenuating circumstances). It's truly not that difficult to keep people's glasses full.

    My experiences of having worked in the industry through college have shown that there are (broadly speaking) two types of servers: those that bust their butts and deserve a full tip and those that take smoke breaks all the time and leave their section full of patrons trying to get the attention of anyone they can.

    It sucks when one has to cover for their co-worker and winds up essentially working two sections so that the customers don't sit around waiting for drinks/food/bill.

    All of this is doubly true in WA state where servers get at least full minimum wage + tips (as opposed to many states where they are paid far under minimum).

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