Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[PATV] Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - Extra Credits Season 6, Ep. 6: Minority

2»

Posts

  • BronzeBronze Registered User new member
    edited April 2013
    In most games, it feels as though the developers only put children in because 1. The developers need a weak person for the player to protect or 2. They think a world without adults would be to unrealistic. It's good to see that there are games that are actually trying to use them to try to tell compelling stories.

    It's still rare, in any medium, to have a story with a non-white protagonist who doesn't come off as a stereotype. So good on them for doing it successfully.
    Zeldias wrote: »
    2) Kenny brings up his race with the "urban" BS, which the game kind of forces you to forgive, which infuriates me to no end. At that point, I wanted Kenny dead, no matter the cost. Not only do I have to chum up to him, but he gets a heroic death too? I guess racism isn't all that bad.
    Seriously? Kenny's comment was ignorant, but he's complex character with a lot of shortcomings, which is kind of the point of his character arc. His heroic death is supposed to show that he can overcome his flaws and act when he needs to act. His ignorance isn't the only part of his character, and the fact that that one remark drove you to homicidal rage for the rest of the game makes me think that you're just not paying that much attention to anything else he does.

    The thing that really bothers me though is that you seem to think that, since a character who made a single mildly racist comment died heroically, Telltale thinks racism isn't bad. That's a completely baseless accusation.


    Bronze on
  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    @Zeldias: The imagery of a black man locked in a police car is troubling? Note that I haven't played TWD, so I don't know the context. But you said that if a black guy is locked in a police car, the imagery "alone" (ie regardless of context) is troubling. So even though a white (/hispanic, /whatever) criminal being taken to jail would not be troubling imagery at all, seeing a black person going to jail is troubling? How is that possibly not a racist viewpoint? If you want people depicted in a way divorced from racial stereotypes, as Faith is, then we need to be allowed to depict white people AND black people sitting in police cars. The fact that the game starts that way is by no means an indicator they were playing to a black stereotype, see the example above where it's extremely common to start a game in a disempowered position, especially as a prisoner, as per the Elder Scrolls games.

    P.S. Everyone's a Bigot in Their Own Way (to the tune of
    ). It's true that whites have not endured persecution to the level that black people in certain parts of and certain time periods in America have. But we have certainly endured prejudice, because everybody has. Every single person on this planet feels uncomfortable with people who are different than them, no matter how insignificant the difference is. That's why so many gamers are resistant to the idea of females in their club. This is not to excuse bigotry, but understand that the "default state" of humanity is racism, sexism, caste mentality. It takes work to extract oneself from separations we've built over thousands of years to make us feel better than other people. That doesn't make racism okay, but it does mean that a slight lapse or weakness in discernment doesn't make one worthy of being eaten by zombies (or punched in the racist mouth, as you must do to people all the time if that's how you respond in real life).

    RatherDashing89 on
  • hardluckhardluck Registered User regular
    I have to point out that even though I find TWD to be the most mature game I've tried, by a wide margin, I didn't find Clementine to be the most engaging child character. I started not seeing her as a child, but almost exclusively as an extension of the main character. This was because it became apparent to me that Clem lacked one of the most important aspects of a child, that of vulnerability. She, as well as Lee, was immortal in the sense of gameplay. And I believe that I'm not alone in my view of Clementine, since majority of players (according to the statistics) had also taken her to Crawford. Which is only sane, if at least at some level you are aware that nothing bad can actually happen to her. I ended up seeing Ben as the child and I found helping him to grow and develop a lot more rewarding than doing the same for Clem. Mostly because of uncertainty of Ben's survival, but also because it had to be done in a more indirect manner.


    @ZombieAladdin
    I believe you have your finger squarely on the issue there. The lack of demand for adult games(the non-XXX variety), that is. Given the abundance of child characters developed for other media, it's hard to accept that there is no available expertise for hire. But given that five to ten years ago I would have found it hard to enjoy a game like TWD, and before that I'd have found it downright repulsive, it becomes, for me personally, very easy to understand why these kinds of games haven't been made.


    PS. Although longer term follower of Extra Credits, I'm new to the forum. After reading the discussion about the previous episode (For whom the bell tolls), I had to try TWD for myself. I went in with heavy preconceptions and assumptions, but found the choices in the game a lot more rewarding than I had expected. While the big storyline decisions were either made for me, or all the choices lead to the same outcome, there was a lot of choice in the other dialogue options. The choices on how you approached the others in your group seemed to reflect back down the line in the story, if not in the life or death situations, at least in how the other characters acted towards you. As an example a right conversation option with Mark later on completely disarms Larry's rage build up.

    Cynicism is a great help when trying to be sarcastic.
  • crayzzcrayzz Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    @RatherDashing89
    How is that possibly not a racist viewpoint?

    Recognizing that racism exists and may be informing the thoughts of others when they espouse what seems to be a racist stereotype is not racist.
    If you want people depicted in a way divorced from racial stereotypes, as Faith is, then we need to be allowed to depict white people AND black people sitting in police cars.

    That assumes we need to place people in police cars at all. He could have been in a hospice, under quarantine, or an airport on lock-down and evoked the same feelings of weakness. Police car was unnecessary. We could avoid such things entirely, until such a time when the NYPD aren't being explicitly ordered to harass black people.
    This is not to excuse bigotry, but understand that the "default state" of humanity is racism, sexism, caste mentality.

    Citation needed. The default state of western culture (and all the places it's colonized) is racist/etc. That says nothing about humans as a whole. Hint: just because the west does it, doesn't mean everyone has always done it.

    @Zeldias

    Could you use bbcode when you're quoting people? Otherwise, you're comments are difficult to parse.

    @FrequentlySane

    Thanks. It's really easy to make that kind of mistake, and I see far to many people freaking out when I or others point out the wrong assumptions they (seemingly) are making.

    crayzz on
  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    crayzz wrote: »
    @RatherDashing89
    How is that possibly not a racist viewpoint?

    Recognizing that racism exists and may be informing the thoughts of others when they espouse what seems to be a racist stereotype is not racist.
    If you want people depicted in a way divorced from racial stereotypes, as Faith is, then we need to be allowed to depict white people AND black people sitting in police cars.

    That assumes we need to place people in police cars at all. He could have been in a hospice, under quarantine, or an airport on lock-down and evoked the same feelings of weakness. Police car was unnecessary. We could avoid such things entirely, until such a time when the NYPD aren't being explicitly ordered to harass black people.
    This is not to excuse bigotry, but understand that the "default state" of humanity is racism, sexism, caste mentality.

    Citation needed. The default state of western culture (and all the places it's colonized) is racist/etc. That says nothing about humans as a whole. Hint: just because the west does it, doesn't mean everyone has always done it.

    What makes a police car invoke imagery beyond another form of incarceration? And if we're throwing out incarceration, for any people of any group, does that mean we have to throw out any imagery that has ever been part of a stereotype?

    Here's a question. If it's taboo to depict a black person in a police car, is it taboo to put a black person in a police car, in real life? So what happens if a person who happens to be black commits a crime? If they are arrested, wouldn't the policeman be espousing a stereotype, and even worse because it's in real life and not a game? Or do we just have to wait to arrest any black people until NYPD stops abusing its power and handing out supreme authority to ill-equipped, nonelected officials? Because then we'll be waiting a while.

    As to the "citation needed", it's ridiculous (and even racist, or at least ethnocentric) to say that only Westerners commonly resist accepting people they consider different. Ever heard of a caste system? That wasn't introduced by the West. What about classes, nobility, "Forbidden Palaces", and gender roles? That stuff has been around forever, all over the world. I know it's popular to hate on the West, but do people really think in Feudal Japan, all humans were equal and no one excluded anyone else? Hint: the word "Feudal".

    And even if it is entirely socially conditioned, the point is that when a thought is so innately part of your way of thinking (the thought: that person is different from me, they shouldn't be), we can't expect everyone to just drop that entire way of thinking. I would challenge anyone who says they have no prejudices or bias, no matter the color of their skin or what hemisphere they are from.

  • somecrazyguysomecrazyguy Registered User new member
    @Zeldias
    Faith gets to be a person and her race is never once treated as a focal point.
    Well that is probably because the game takes place in an ASIAN CITY. In case all the Chinese and Japanese writing (even though most of it is gibberish) did not give it away, the fact that the guards speak Japanese to each other should make that obvious. The only reason that the main characters speak English to one another is so we do not need a bunch of subtitles.

  • LuxorekLuxorek Registered User new member
    @somecrazyguy

    The City from Mirror's Edge is not Asian. It's multicultural and in unspecified location - there is plenty of signs in English, Russian, Chinese and Japanese. Not to mention that the police talks in English with a clearly North American accent. And besides, Faith is half-Asian and half-white.

  • MerlynnMerlynn Registered User regular
    "Evoked simply by it's setting in the American south." Fuck you.

  • SinrusSinrus Registered User regular
    @hardluck

    Clementine was vulnerable like any other child. She did not have the tools to defend herself (until you teach her to shoot) and she didn't have the knowledge to avoid trouble (which she picks up as the game goes on). As for bringing her I chose to do it because she was tired of being a burden, had proven to be a useful asset, I didn't want to leave her where there was no-one who could reliably protect her, and was afraid she would run off to meet the radio guy.

  • Grifter42Grifter42 Registered User new member
    As to you and the bit about racism, this confirms to me that you have not only never suffered under racism in any fashion, but it also goes against what you're earlier argument; if I'm supposed to treat Lee's situation as divorced from reality and a mere fixture of a fantasy game, why can I not vent my anger at a character in that fantasy game? Either Lee and Kenny both ought to be treated as we would treat real world people (in which case, Lee should've done as I would have done and have done, and punched him in his racist mouth), or we treat both as actors in a fantasy game, and it's fine for me to wish that Kenny dies because I loathed him as a character.

    You are correct in the assumption that I have not suffered under any sort of prejudice. I am an middle-class white male and have never felt the effects of any sort of bigotry. I have lived a privileged life, and have been passively afforded many opportunities that others would kill for. I readily acknowledge this and I live my life trying to change the deplorable situation that is the American social structure.

    That said, Lee is his own character. His actions are guided by the player, but the player often doesn't directly control his responses in order to give Lee a life of his own. You may have wanted to punch Kenny when he said those things, and I can't fault you for that. But try and look at the world from Lee's perspective. In a world where there very well may be only 10 humans left on Earth, Kenny represents a huge portion of a rare resource. Killing or banishing him simply because he is a bigot could very well mean the death of the entire group later on. If Kenny wasn't there to shoot down zombies at the mansion or if Kenny wasn't at Crawford who knows what could have happened. The point is that Kenny tries to redeem himself on multiple occasions. Kenny can be Lee's greatest ally or most persistent enemy depending on how the player reacts. In a zombie apocalypse, it is better to work together in a group rather than pull apart due to infighting and Lee knew that and acted accordingly.

  • SinrusSinrus Registered User regular
    @Zeldias

    No, he's a racist and harbors racist ideology REGARDLESS of how pleasant he may act. He showed us that and we have no avenue of retaliation.

    I hope I'm doing quotes right


    When I played through Kenny was Lee's best friend and Lee was his. The two went through a bunch of shit together and watched each other's backs as best as they could manage. The racist comment was Kenny just grasping at straws in a desperate situation and I was satisfied by retaliating with "Dude, did you seriously just say that?" and making him admit that he said a dumbass thing.

    Faith is a stronger example of dealing with race in writing because her race is never used to throw in a stupid gag or build some other character

    This is the problem with her character in terms of dealing with race. Not once does she cause the player to think about how society impacts her identity. It's a nice example in that she doesn't play up any stereotypes except for maybe martial arts but she doesn't ask the player to look at race in our society either.

  • BarnesmBarnesm Registered User regular
    "and thus we leave our look at the Walking Dead"

    ....aawww

  • MikoditeMikodite Registered User regular
    2:50

    There are positive aspects to parenthood and children? Seriously? You don't think children are portrayed in this way (as they are in other areas of media not targeting kids) because kids are whiny, annoying, and burdensome? Especially in North America where one can't put them to work or anything: they just suck time and money from their parents, especially mothers who are usually stuck with the butt end of the deal. Why can't many of you except that most kids are about as iresome as Jason in Heavy Rain, and that mother nature has to hack us into raising them so that we wouldn't go extent, and even then there was a time before changes to child labour laws where they weren't considered burdens?

  • crayzzcrayzz Registered User regular
    @RatherDashing89
    What makes a police car invoke imagery beyond another form of incarceration?

    I didn't say that it did.
    And if we're throwing out1 incarceration, for any people of any group2, does that mean we have to throw out any imagery that has ever been3 part of a stereotype?

    1) I didn't say "throw out"; I said "avoid". Avoidance is not a total ban.
    2) I didn't say "any people of any group"; not all groups are subjected to the same stereotypes.
    3) "Has ever been" is the wrong phrase. Not all stereotypes have power like that; the stereotype of Germans liking sausage, for instance, does not get them harassed by police.
    Here's a question. If it's taboo to depict a black person in a police car, is it taboo to put a black person in a police car, in real life?

    I didn't say it was taboo. I don't think you're reading what I'm writing.
    So what happens if a person who happens to be black commits a crime?

    They are arrested, I would hope.
    If they are arrested, wouldn't the policeman be espousing a stereotype, and even worse because it's in real life and not a game?

    That's not what "espousing" means.
    Or do we just have to wait to arrest any black people until NYPD stops abusing its power and handing out supreme authority to ill-equipped, nonelected officials? Because then we'll be waiting a while.

    The fact that racism will take a while to fix is not an excuse to keep being casually or accidentally racist. It's actually an argument against this sort of thing, since yet another example of black people being associated with crime in the media could potentially drag the whole thing out, just a little.
    As to the "citation needed", it's ridiculous (and even racist, or at least ethnocentric) to say that only Westerners commonly resist accepting people they consider different.

    I didn't say that. You're definitely not reading what I'm saying.
    Ever heard of a caste system? That wasn't introduced by the West. What about classes, nobility, "Forbidden Palaces", and gender roles? That stuff has been around forever, all over the world. I know it's popular to hate on the West, but do people really think in Feudal Japan, all humans were equal and no one excluded anyone else? Hint: the word "Feudal".

    That humans display a wide array of discriminatory behaviour does not mean that discrimination is inherent with all humans at birth. Also, Feudal Japan is a misnomer; it's not actually a feudal system.
    And even if it is entirely socially conditioned1, the point is that when a thought is so innately part of your way of thinking (the thought: that person is different from me, they shouldn't be2), we can't expect everyone to just drop that entire way of thinking3.

    1) If it's entirely socially conditioned (and social conditioning is definitely a major factor), a good way to combat that would be to avoid unnecessary associations between black people and crime.
    2) That's a very simplistic notion of how bigotry works.
    3) But I can expect them to recognize their mistakes. That's all this whole thing started out as: pointing out a mistake.

  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    Everything I said was in direct response to you (or Zeldias). I suppose I should make it clearer with my formatting (I was just being lazy in my past posts, methinks).
    crayzz wrote: »
    @RatherDashing89
    What makes a police car invoke imagery beyond another form of incarceration?

    I didn't say that it did. What you did say was that it was unnecessary to place him in a police car, when instead he could have been in another form of incarceration, which you then listed (airport lockdown, etc). Looking back I realize that the examples you gave were more neutral, rather than actual imprisonment. But I do think then you lose the vulnerability of being a prisoner. Again, I have not played TWD, but I'm guessing it was an important part of the story that he had been arrested, not just the developers subconsciously thinking "He's black, therefore he's probably going to be in a police car".
    And if we're throwing out1 incarceration, for any people of any group2, does that mean we have to throw out any imagery that has ever been3 part of a stereotype?

    1) I didn't say "throw out"; I said "avoid". Avoidance is not a total ban. Then why can't it be used in TWD? Both you and Zeldias, as far as I could tell, were saying they shouldn't have used a black person in a police car. When I said that we shouldn't say it's okay to depict white people in police cars and not black people, you said, "why put them in a police car at all?" And my answer is, why not? If it would have been okay to put a white person in the car, it is okay to put a black person there. I don't see how making a distinction there would not be discrimination, saying that a certain treatment is okay for one group of people and not another.
    2) I didn't say "any people of any group"; not all groups are subjected to the same stereotypes.
    3) "Has ever been" is the wrong phrase. Not all stereotypes have power like that; the stereotype of Germans liking sausage, for instance, does not get them harassed by police.
    Here's a question. If it's taboo to depict a black person in a police car, is it taboo to put a black person in a police car, in real life?

    I didn't say it was taboo. I don't think you're reading what I'm writing. Zeldias, to whom I was originally replying, was insisting that TWD cannot be a fair depiction of race, and it is in fact a racist game, because it depicted a black person in a police car. That was why I said it was being made a taboo.
    So what happens if a person who happens to be black commits a crime?

    They are arrested, I would hope. My point is that if something can happen in real life without being a bad thing or negative in any way, such as a criminal being arrested, then it should be allowed to happen in a game.
    If they are arrested, wouldn't the policeman be espousing a stereotype, and even worse because it's in real life and not a game?

    That's not what "espousing" means. Again, this is going off the idea, that I assumed at least Zeldias if not you were saying, that it was racist of TWD to depict a black person in a police car, or at least connected to racist imagery. So if it's racist to do it in a game, how is it not racist to do it in real life?
    Or do we just have to wait to arrest any black people until NYPD stops abusing its power and handing out supreme authority to ill-equipped, nonelected officials? Because then we'll be waiting a while.

    The fact that racism will take a while to fix is not an excuse to keep being casually or accidentally racist. It's actually an argument against this sort of thing, since yet another example of black people being associated with crime in the media could potentially drag the whole thing out, just a little. Depicting someone in a police car is not casually or accidentally racist, any more than having a black person eat a watermelon on TV is. Now, if it's indicated that they enjoy watermelon BECAUSE they are black, or it is natural for them to be arrested BECAUSE they are black, that's racist. But I don't see any evidence that TWD did that. Nowhere was his incarceration connected to his race. If it was, I assume someone would have pointed it out by now, as it would prove their point irrefutably.
    As to the "citation needed", it's ridiculous (and even racist, or at least ethnocentric) to say that only Westerners commonly resist accepting people they consider different.

    I didn't say that. You're definitely not reading what I'm saying. I know that's not the intent of what you said. But what I was trying to say originally is that racism is both common and "natural", (like many other abhorrent things that are natural to mankind, like killing). You said that this may be the case in the West, and that we can't assume the whole world is like that. Which, for the sake of your point, is basically saying that it is NOT the case outside the West. I know I changed the wording on you when I replied to you, but it wasn't because I wasn't reading your posts. It was to make a point. Racism is not this mental sickness that some people just "get", where all of a sudden they violently hate people of other races with no gradient between "racist" and "not racist". So while it's easy enough to say "Rrracism" is only the norm in the West, it's harder to say that about simply being uncomfortable around people who are different. I'm attempting to refute Zeldias' idea that everybody is either racist or not racist, and that anyone racist needs to be punched in the racist mouth. Everybody is a different amount of racist, and we all need to work on getting rid of as much of it as possible. But making a thick line between us and the "racist type", that we can bear no understanding towards or commonality with (as Zeldais would say, since one comment from Kenny meant he could not imagine letting Kenny live, much less being a friend to him) is not helping humanity come together.
    Ever heard of a caste system? That wasn't introduced by the West. What about classes, nobility, "Forbidden Palaces", and gender roles? That stuff has been around forever, all over the world. I know it's popular to hate on the West, but do people really think in Feudal Japan, all humans were equal and no one excluded anyone else? Hint: the word "Feudal".

    That humans display a wide array of discriminatory behaviour does not mean that discrimination is inherent with all humans at birth. Also, Feudal Japan is a misnomer; it's not actually a feudal system. I'll admit, I haven't done extensive study into it. But I highly doubt every man and woman was equal. Wasn't "samurai" a sort of class, that you had to be born into or at least appointed into?
    And even if it is entirely socially conditioned1, the point is that when a thought is so innately part of your way of thinking (the thought: that person is different from me, they shouldn't be2), we can't expect everyone to just drop that entire way of thinking3.

    1) If it's entirely socially conditioned (and social conditioning is definitely a major factor), a good way to combat that would be to avoid unnecessary associations between black people and crime.
    2) That's a very simplistic notion of how bigotry works. Again, it seems like you're drawing a line between "bigots"and "non-bigots" as if they are two entirely different groups of people with no "partial bigots" anywhere along the line.
    3) But I can expect them to recognize their mistakes. That's all this whole thing started out as: pointing out a mistake. Kenny recognized his mistake and apologized for it. Zeldias still insisted that Kenny deserved to die, and even in real life Zeldias would have punched Kenny in the mouth despite his apology and the friendship he formed with Lee.

  • crayzzcrayzz Registered User regular
    But I do think then you lose the vulnerability of being a prisoner.

    Why does it have to be a specific type of vulnerability?
    Again, I have not played TWD, but I'm guessing it was an important part of the story that he had been arrested, not just the developers subconsciously thinking "He's black, therefore he's probably going to be in a police car".

    Racist ideals (subconscious or otherwise) can be an important part of a story.
    When I said that we shouldn't say it's okay to depict white people in police cars and not black people, you said, "why put them in a police car at all?" And my answer is, why not?1 If it would have been okay to put a white person in the car, it is okay to put a black person there.2I don't see how making a distinction there would not be discrimination, saying that a certain treatment is okay for one group of people and not another.3

    1) It may not have been necessary. All I'm asking is this: If you can tell the basically the same story without the racist imagery, don't use the racist imagery.
    2) NYPD isn't being ordered to harass white people; you're statement only makes sense in a world where racism doesn't exist.
    3) Recognizing that racism exists and making a very minor effort to not accidentally support it is not discrimination towards white people.
    My point is that if something can happen in real life without being a bad thing or negative in any way, such as a criminal being arrested, then it should be allowed to happen in a game.

    You realize that I don't have the power to stop game developers right? They're allowed to do what they want; all I'm doing is criticizing them.
    Again, this is going off the idea, that I assumed at least Zeldias if not you were saying, that it was racist of TWD to depict a black person in a police car, or at least connected to racist imagery1. So if it's racist to do it in a game, how is it not racist to do it in real life?2

    1) Bingo: the connection to racist imagery is my problem
    2) Because we control what goes into games. We can't help it whether or not a given black person commits a crime. We can help, however, whether or not we give yet another example of a "black criminal" in the media.
    Depicting someone in a police car is not casually or accidentally racist, any more than having a black person eat a watermelon on TV is.1 Now, if it's indicated that they enjoy watermelon BECAUSE they are black, or it is natural for them to be arrested BECAUSE they are black, that's racist. But I don't see any evidence that TWD did that. Nowhere was his incarceration connected to his race.2 If it was, I assume someone would have pointed it out by now, as it would prove their point irrefutably.

    1) The two aren't comparable like this. One case involves a black person doing something; the other involves him having something done to him.
    2) The game doesn't exist in a vacuum. The association between black people and crime (or for that matter, black people and watermelon) is part of our culture; the imagery, while not necessarily condoning it, feeds into it quite well.
    You said that this may be the case in the West, and that we can't assume the whole world is like that. Which, for the sake of your point, is basically saying that it is NOT the case outside the West.

    Wrong. For the sake of my point, I'm basically saying its not necessarily the case outside the west.
    Again, it seems like you're drawing a line between "bigots"and "non-bigots" as if they are two entirely different groups of people with no "partial bigots" anywhere along the line.

    I don't know where you got this idea; it looks to me like you made it up.
    Kenny recognized his mistake and apologized for it.

    I wasn't talking about Kenny; I was talking about the game developers.

    I appreciate your attempt at trying to make your posts more clear, but that formatting just looks ugly to me.

  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    crayzz wrote: »
    3) Recognizing that racism exists and making a very minor effort to not accidentally support it is not discrimination towards white people.
    I still cannot see how depicting a black person in a police car is accidentally supporting racism.
    You realize that I don't have the power to stop game developers right? They're allowed to do what they want; all I'm doing is criticizing them.
    I meant "allowed to without being called racist". IMO, if it's not racist in real life, it's not racist in a game.
    2) Because we control what goes into games. We can't help it whether or not a given black person commits a crime. We can help, however, whether or not we give yet another example of a "black criminal" in the media.
    Looking back, I realize I'm being too aggressive here. This is not something I can say definitively or cover in this forum, because it's still an issue that's hotly debated--do we fight racism by ensuring nothing resembling a stereotype is presented (ie, turning our guns on racism itself) or do we fight it by ignoring it, refusing to give it the dignity of a response? I'm still on the fence, but I'd lean towards the latter because it puts things on our terms instead of letting the stereotypes define us. If we decide to exclude something because it's from a stereotype, we're letting the stereotype tell us how to behave. But the former tactic is just as valid. I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion between the two instead of being told (as I essentially was told by Zeldias) that I'm not allowed to weigh in because I'm a middle class white male.
    1) The two aren't comparable like this. One case involves a black person doing something; the other involves him having something done to him.
    Good point.
    2) The game doesn't exist in a vacuum. The association between black people and crime (or for that matter, black people and watermelon) is part of our culture; the imagery, while not necessarily condoning it, feeds into it quite well.
    I don't see how it really feeds into it. I doubt either the developers or people playing the game will see Lee in the car and think, "not surprised, black man committed a crime". That's just my perspective as someone who doesn't live anywhere near NYC and doesn't watch crime TV, though.
    I don't know where you got this idea; it looks to me like you made it up.

    Let me take you on the twisted course that is my train of thought ;) The discussion, where I see it, started with Zeldias' bashing the game for not letting him kill Kenny or do as he would do in real life and punch Kenny in the racist mouth (after which I presume he would leave him, meaning Kenny gets eaten by zombies). Zeldias' reasoning was that Kenny, being a racist, deserved no sympathy or help, only animosity. That was the whole reason I began talking about the whole "Everybody's Racist"--because for Kenny's one ignorant comment, Zeldias was placing Kenny into the group of bigot, a group he could never associate with and could only wish harm to come towards them. I have been trying to rephrase bigotry as being resistant to people different from you, because it helps us understand that we all have our prejudices instead of just seeing Racists as this "other" that we could never connect with. You said bigotry doesn't work that way, which precludes that bigotry is not a quality we all possess to varying degrees when we resist people who are different, when I believe that's exactly what it is.
    I wasn't talking about Kenny; I was talking about the game developers.

    But I was. Like I said, I brought up the universality of prejudice to defend Kenny, someone who made a single off-color comment based on his own lack of understanding and cultural upbringing, a comment that he immediately retracted apologetically. Zeldais didn't just have a beef with the police car scene. He criticized the lack of control given the player because he was forced to forgive Kenny, which Lee should never have done since Kenny was a racist man with a racist mouth who needed to get eaten by zombies.

  • crayzzcrayzz Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    @RatherDashing89
    This is not something I can say definitively or cover in this forum, because it's still an issue that's hotly debated--do we fight racism by ensuring nothing resembling a stereotype is presented (ie, turning our guns on racism itself) or do we fight it by ignoring it, refusing to give it the dignity of a response?

    The issue actually isn't "hotly debated". Ignoring racism does not make it go away.
    I'm still on the fence, but I'd lean towards the latter because it puts things on our terms instead of letting the stereotypes define us.

    Minorities often don't have a choice in whether or not they are defined by a stereotype; people will simply treat them as such.
    If we decide to exclude something because it's from a stereotype, we're letting the stereotype tell us how to behave.

    Yes. By and large, reality heavily informs my behaviour. I don't know why you think it shouldn't.
    I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion between the two instead of being told (as I essentially was told by Zeldias) that I'm not allowed to weigh in because I'm a middle class white male.

    I don't think Zeldias said that.
    I don't see how it really feeds into it. I doubt either the developers or people playing the game will see Lee in the car and think, "not surprised, black man committed a crime". That's just my perspective as someone who doesn't live anywhere near NYC and doesn't watch crime TV, though.

    The fact that you don't see it doesn't matter. That "black people are criminals" is already part of our culture means that, realistically, people (not everyone) are going to see their racist ideals reaffirmed, even if the developers did not intend to do this.
    I have been trying to rephrase bigotry as being resistant to people different from you1, because it helps us understand that we all have our prejudices instead of just seeing Racists as this "other" that we could never connect with. You said bigotry doesn't work that way2, which precludes that bigotry is not a quality we all possess3 to varying degrees when we resist people who are different, when I believe that's exactly what it is.

    1) This notion is still very simplistic.
    2) No, I didn't. I said bigotry wasn't necessarily thinking, "You're different from me; you shouldn't be," which is not how you're describing it now. In any case, when black people were enslaved, their "owners" did not think, "Man, I wish these slaves of mine were white". The most common argument was that black people were the descendants of Ham, and were made to be slaves. It wasn't unease, or discomfort at those different. It was dehumanization of those different; it was treating them as if they weren't people. That does not fit well into, "you're different from me; you shouldn't be".
    3) That I disagree with your stated definition of bigotry does not mean I think only some people are bigoted.
    Like I said, I brought up the universality of prejudice to defend Kenny, someone who made a single off-color comment based on his own lack of understanding and cultural upbringing, a comment that he immediately retracted apologetically. Zeldais didn't just have a beef with the police car scene.

    None of my arguments hinge on what Zeldias was saying. I agree with you on the universality of prejudice.

    crayzz on
  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    I hope my posts aren't seeming hostile or argumentative. It's hard for us to really get very far with this without Zeldias or anyone else weighing in. So I'll try to keep this short before I hijack this thread more than we already have.
    The issue actually isn't "hotly debated". Ignoring racism does not make it go away.
    I wasn't trying to recommend we ignore racism, or implying that stereotypes don't impact people's lives. By saying we don't let it define us this is what I mean: If I were a cop, I would not debate whether or not to arrest someone based on the color of their skin. If they commit a crime, I will arrest them (and will not arrest them if they do not) without wondering, "should I arrest them because they are black" (which would, obviously, be racist) or "should I not arrest them because they are black". The stereotype should not come into my thinking in that situation at all.
    The fact that you don't see it doesn't matter. That "black people are criminals" is already part of our culture
    My point is, it's not part of my culture (the culture I live in), and won't be part of the culture of a large number of people who play this game.
    2) No, I didn't. I said bigotry wasn't necessarily thinking, "You're different from me; you shouldn't be," which is not how you're describing it now. In any case, when black people were enslaved, their "owners" did not think, "Man, I wish these slaves of mine were white". The most common argument was that black people were the descendants of Ham, and were made to be slaves. It wasn't unease, or discomfort at those different. It was dehumanization of those different; it was treating them as if they weren't people. That does not fit well into, "you're different from me; you shouldn't be".

    The Ham thing would have been used by some as justification once the issue was questioned, but this wasn't why slaves were brought to the US. An important point here is that, while in the US it was obviously white people owning black slaves, the enslavement was done by whites and blacks. Very seldom did white people raid villages and capture random people as slaves. They purchased them from African warlords who had no cultural convictions against slavery. It's hypocrisy, yes, but the thinking was often "Well, we don't enslave ourselves, but they enslave each other, so we can take advantage of that". Anyway, I'm just nitpicking here.
    None of my arguments hinge on what Zeldias was saying. I agree with you on the universality of prejudice.
    Good. That's all I was really trying to say, the definition of bigotry really doesn't matter too much in this discussion then because that's all I was trying to get across.

  • crayzzcrayzz Registered User regular
    I hope my posts aren't seeming hostile or argumentative.

    I disagree with your implication that being argumentative is bad. See? I'm doing it now!
    I wasn't trying to recommend we ignore racism, or implying that stereotypes don't impact people's lives. By saying we don't let it define us this is what I mean: If I were a cop, I would not debate whether or not to arrest someone based on the color of their skin. If they commit a crime, I will arrest them (and will not arrest them if they do not) without wondering, "should I arrest them because they are black" (which would, obviously, be racist) or "should I not arrest them because they are black". The stereotype should not come into my thinking in that situation at all.

    If you look at the incarceration rates for marijuana charges, most of the people charged are minorities. If you look at the sociology data on marijuana use, white people use it more. So, somehow, black people (and other minorities) are being charged more for a crime they are committing less. Incarceration often leads to other problems. This essentially places an extra burden on young black people, since they are at a greater risk of screwing up their life for a minor crime. Stereotypes are absolutely something to watch out for when making arrests, because it leads to focusing on a specific demographic despite less of them doing it.
    My point is, it's not part of my culture (the culture I live in), and won't be part of the culture of a large number of people who play this game.

    Yes, it is. If you live in North America, Europe or Australia, racism is a huge part of your culture. The people you meet, interact with, etc... will hold racist ideals, either consciously or unconsciously.

  • SinrusSinrus Registered User regular
    I'm gonna throw this out there. Lee does start in a police car but one of the first things to happen in the game (at least in my playthrough) is that the cop says "well I guess you didn't do it." Also it is also quickly confirmed that Lee did in fact commit a crime that warranted arrest.

  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    Part of the problem of discussion racism is that there exist a great number of people that fail to separate themselves from their ancestors, after 3 generations, no one would blame you for their actions. We got over it and there's people outside your bloodline (and a few in our own, Chris Brown) that make things so much more difficult for a black man.

  • astronautcowboy3astronautcowboy3 Registered User regular
    I guess this show disregards JRPGs use of children, which is to say that adolescents are the main characters in no small number of them. They may not (always) be elementary school aged, but, for example, Luca / Ruca in Tales of Innocence definitely looks the part, and you are him in that game, essentially.

    The JRPG Club: Video game reviews, vocabulary lists and other resources for Japanese learners.
    PSN: astronautcowboy 3DS: 5343-8146-1833
    I have Sega, Nintendo and Xbox games and systems for sale. Please help me buy diapers.
  • wahaywahay Your Handicapped Hero Cincinnati, USARegistered User regular
    I am really surprised by the strong response in this forum to the race-concept snippet of this episode. I didn't find it inappropriate in any way. Diverse ethnicities are being introduced without being highlighted to reflect what it's like to be living in the United States in 2013. I thought it should have just ended there.

    In regards to children, I will say that the United States definitely views children as a burden. In most warm-climate cultures, children—and large families—are viewed as a blessing. If one walked his large family around in the public of the USA he would definitely receive negative criticism, verbal or otherwise. Family, in general, doesn't have the same implications here as it would in places like Ghana or India, and I'd be interested in a game using ethnicities to bring that to light.

    "Sorry ladies, I give my everything to Sallie Mae."
    My Artist Corner Thread • Everywhere I Post
  • Twenty SidedTwenty Sided Registered User regular
    wahay wrote: »
    I am really surprised by the strong response in this forum to the race-concept snippet of this episode. I didn't find it inappropriate in any way. Diverse ethnicities are being introduced without being highlighted to reflect what it's like to be living in the United States in 2013. I thought it should have just ended there.

    In regards to children, I will say that the United States definitely views children as a burden. In most warm-climate cultures, children—and large families—are viewed as a blessing. If one walked his large family around in the public of the USA he would definitely receive negative criticism, verbal or otherwise. Family, in general, doesn't have the same implications here as it would in places like Ghana or India, and I'd be interested in a game using ethnicities to bring that to light.

    I instantly assume "warm climate" means a historical context where food is plentiful and having large families is not a bad thing --- which is reflected in the culture.

    If you ask me, I think the U.S. is too baby crazy on the whole. So eh.
    My mood is not improved by a church billboard which commands me to be fruitful and multiply. Like, we have enough people already.

  • crayzzcrayzz Registered User regular
    @wahay
    In regards to children, I will say that the United States definitely views children as a burden.

    Tell that to the couples who endure constant questions about when they're gonna have children. They may be viewed as a burden, but they're often viewed as a rewarding little bundle of joy. So rewarding, in fact, that there must be something wrong with you if you don't want one.

  • wahaywahay Your Handicapped Hero Cincinnati, USARegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    crayzz wrote: »
    Tell that to the couples who endure constant questions about when they're gonna have children. They may be viewed as a burden, but they're often viewed as a rewarding little bundle of joy. So rewarding, in fact, that there must be something wrong with you if you don't want one.
    @Crazyzz oh, I am definitely amongst those couples. Some of my friends want me to have babies NOW. But here are some differences a "Western Mentality" brings to the discussion: the DINK (dual income, no kids), for example. I know Westerner can think a child is a blessing, but I'm not convinced it's in the same way as other cultures prioritise their families. Which is totally evident in empty nests and divorce rates/responses. And I still want to see that theme highlighted in a game.

    I instantly assume "warm climate" means a historical context where food is plentiful and having large families is not a bad thing --- which is reflected in the culture.
    Spot on, @Twenty_Sided . With a few exceptions, one can group cultural trends into warm and cold climates. Google "warm cold culture climate" to find a small and quick -- but excellent-- read on the subject.

    wahay on
    "Sorry ladies, I give my everything to Sallie Mae."
    My Artist Corner Thread • Everywhere I Post
  • ZombieAladdinZombieAladdin Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    I thought divorces happened predominantly out of disagreement between spouses and rarely because of the child. Unless the subject was about the role of family cohesiveness in the United States.

    P.S. I always thought that people with large amounts of children were looked down upon in the United States because onlookers assume that the parents wouldn't be able to take care of them all unless the kids were brought into the workforce at an early age, or because they see overpopulation as a serious matter and a family with lots of kids is symbolic of such an issue.

    ZombieAladdin on
  • crayzzcrayzz Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    @Wahay
    With a few exceptions, one can group cultural trends into warm and cold climates.

    One could, but it would have to be a arbitrary. Cultures demonstrate a whole range of attributes, and geological location has little to do with it.

    crayzz on
  • wahaywahay Your Handicapped Hero Cincinnati, USARegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    @crayzz
    crayzz wrote: »
    @Wahay
    With a few exceptions, one can group cultural trends into warm and cold climates.

    One could, but it would have to be a arbitrary. Cultures demonstrate a whole range of attributes, and geological location has little to do with it.

    Arbitrary, yeah, but it's still a helpful thing to note. Now that I'm not on a tablet I can easily link you to it. Since I married far outside of my culture I'm interested in bringing this sort of understanding to the world, through videogames or otherwise. Seems like the kind of discussion the Extra Credit crew might enjoy talking about, even if we can't apply it to games yet.

    @ZombieAladdin
    I thought divorces happened predominantly out of disagreement between spouses and rarely because of the child. Unless the subject was about the role of family cohesiveness in the United States.
    Dead-on. The familial obligations other cultures feel can make divorce a huge taboo, for better or for worse.

    wahay on
    "Sorry ladies, I give my everything to Sallie Mae."
    My Artist Corner Thread • Everywhere I Post
  • cannedpeachescannedpeaches Señor Limpio Registered User new member
    edited April 2013
    I respect your choice of subject and I very much enjoyed your explanation of it, but when I read "minority" I thought it was going to be all about race, which would have been awesome. I was really interested in the ways they used Lee to represent blackness without overdoing it or seeming out of touch.

    EDIT: Okay, it is. I just didn't get all the way through it. So I misunderstood the word "minority" TWICE.

    cannedpeaches on
  • LeadpaintchipsLeadpaintchips Registered User new member
    Long time stalking, first time commenting, so here goes:

    I've had more than a few games (can only think of one right now, but I remember the impact) where my first playthrough of the game had an impact on both how I viewed the game and how I emotionally reacted to the game. Regrettably, most of these games only had these children in for a short amount of time before they left for various reasons.

    For example: the one game that really sticks out in my head as a great example for me is Fable 2. The intro to that one had me grow attached to the older sibling and what happens at the end of the intro (trying not to spoil it) had a LARGE impact on how I played the rest of the game, because it had a major emotional response throughout the game.

    I haven't played The Walking Dead, but I'm glad that they have a child character in there that's both for the length of the game and isn't someone that I would want to punt to the zombies.

  • padoylepadoyle Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    One of the biggest things that kept me intrigued in The Walking Dead was the timed dialogue/moral choices. Despite how simple it is to add a timer and to account for the option of silence, it's amazingly powerful.

    It made me panic, ponder, worry, and act impulsively and, more importantly, genuinely. It showed me so much about who I really am and what I believe in. You can't assume that your answer to a question will be the same if you have infinite time to think as opposed to if you have to speak up now or be silent. No other moral choice system in games (even ones that were really compelling like some from the Mass Effect series, and a bunch from The Witcher series) managed to elicit anywhere near the emotional response that this game did, nor did they provide so much insight about my own beliefs.

    padoyle on
2»
Sign In or Register to comment.